Omniscience v Determinism

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, Josheb said:

The op says you think you need some catching up on omniscience and determinism and any causal or resulting relationship between the two. This is it, Diaste. 1 Peter 1:20 is an example of God's omniscience, and it is an example of God deterministic foreknowledge. There was no way it was never going to happen, ever going to not happen. Christ's entrance into what we call "history" was foreknown before a single atom was ever created, before a single human ever drew breath, before a single sin ever occurred. 

Yeah. Just never gave it much thought. It seems to be coming up more and more in conversation so I thought I should run it by the group and see what's what.

It's not that I don't get God has foreknowledge. That's too obvious and I don't need it proven to me. It seemed quite clear from the beginning of this topic it's not if there is a deterministic nature to existence but the scope of it and the limitations of the creature to choose.

So far I see nothing to change that. 

Now it's true Christ was foreknown. But again, that's abundantly clear and His preexistence is without doubt as well as many other attributes. That's all the further I'm going with that as any more would lead to another topic, about which I have read your thoughts.

20 hours ago, Josheb said:

God knows all about every aspect of creation. 

Or was all of that decided after the fact of sin? 

C'mon, man. I didn't say that. Didn't imply it either. 

20 hours ago, Josheb said:

I have already answered and to a great degree addressed this question: What God ordained from eternity did NO violence to the will of the creature. 

Actually YOU didn't. You paraphrased someone else. Now maybe that is your belief system in this but you did reference another. And I'm not opposed to the idea but it still seems a conflict exists at the point of contact between what God asks of us and whether we will believe Him or not, and literally every other choice.

That is where I see the answer. And if we did choose a thing how would we know we chose it freely? The one thing I see where we have the privilege of completely free choice apart from any outside influence is believing God or not. 

It's no doubt we are influenced by the Spirit individually and perhaps even guided to a required end apart from conscious knowledge, all within God's plan for us, and maybe that is the norm. 

 

20 hours ago, Josheb said:

No, the "whole idea" is NOT "if God knows every choice...." 

Ah. I don't think it fair to apply another context. That is what I'm looking for. That is the point. 

This:

"Determinism, in philosophy, theory that all events, including moral choices, are completely determined by previously existing causes. Determinism is usually understood to preclude free will because it entails that humans cannot act otherwise than they do."

Or free will...

Or a balance...

where as yet the balance lacks depth and scope. That's what I'm interested in and nothing else.

21 hours ago, Josheb said:

It is within that default setting God acts upon the sinfully dead and enslaved sinner and every single soteriological position asserted by Christianity agrees: the effects of sin are so total that humans are incapable of choosing God unaided by God. Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Arminius, and Wesley ALL agreed. Only Pelagius is said to disagree. Arminius hypothesized something He called "prevenient grace" but he still agreed with and unabashed taught total depravity.  

Yes. Well I don't care what they say. God has said to believe in Him and on His Son. The words of man carry no weight with me in the interpretation of scripture. I have heard it all before and been lied to many times. If they align with the word of truth then fine, mostly they do not.

21 hours ago, Josheb said:

God know every choice the corpse makes . He also knows the choices it cannot make. He knew what would happen before it happened and He knew it because that is the way He designed it. 

I know you're unequivocal about this. I get it.

21 hours ago, Josheb said:

We are saved by GRACE!!! 

God acted when we could not. Now you and I can debate whether or not volitional agency is involved and at which point but you're right: that is probably a topic for a separate discussion but the determinism of God's design, the determinism of sin about which God knows, and the determinism of God's own choice to assert grace first and foremost via the foreknown entrance of His Son into His history, His creation about which He knows all aspects.......  are all aspects of omniscience and determinism that are well within the topic of this op. 

I'm not disputing the design or the plan. It's a question I have never really explored and I wanted to. If you're frustrated with me we can stop, shake hands and chat some other time.

 

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, Josheb said:

No, we have not established God knows every aspect about His creation. If I understand your position correctly God does know the future; He is working out His plan as He goes. And whether the reason for a question is understood or not, if it can and should be answered. 

Can God be sovereign over that which He does not know?

Yes. I would say that He can. In this case what does He not know? And how is intimate knowledge of all creation the proof of knowing all choices of every one ever born for all time?

 

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, Josheb said:

Thanks for that clarification but the question asked was not answered. You said, "Sin does kill, but not every soul must yield to this malevolence." About whom are you talking? According to a large pile of scripture humans will ALL yield to this malevolence. God, at a minimum, certainly knew if one sin occurred it would have pervasive corrupting determinism. He knew that because He designed creation that way. 

No. God did not design creation to be sinful. That is the domain of Satan through the weakness of mankind. Sin was never the plan, never part of the plan, even with the knowledge the circumstance could arise, hence the warning about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. A good God would not design sin into  His creation or that would be a violation of His character.

Sin was found in Satan when he rebelled. Through him and weakness of the flesh sin destroyed perfect creation.

21 hours ago, Josheb said:

 

About whom are you talking when saying, "Sin does kill, but not every soul must yield to this malevolence"?

The NT teaches we are no longer a slave to the workings of sin even as we have sin, as the blood of Christ covers that sin and we are conformed to the image of Christ by the power of the Spirit. Sin is a blood condition, not behavior. The behavior is the manifestation of the sin in us. 

Death is not the ending of the flesh, it's the death of the soul. Life is more than animated flesh as the soul is eternal. This is what sin will do left unchecked, kill the soul with death. That is not so for everyone and those in the Spirit escape the death of sin.

[Alive]

A thing that helps me in this subject matter is an understanding of the semi-big picture of God's desire and intent. When Paul spoke of His Eternal Purpose, I think this points to the fact that God 'I AM' who is being--is existence. The ontology thing.

And that He wished to share 'being'. But more pointedly, He wished to have a family with whom to 'share' that being and to work along side Him, in whatever He is doing and will do. He wanted sons and Christ from before the creation was spoke into existence, was that and to be that first born of many brethren.

God desired and determined that He would indeed have that family. There is no way that this wasn't going to materialize. Almighty God desired it---us.

Extrapolating from there is a wonderful thing to think about.

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, Josheb said:

There's still some content in one of your earlier posts I haven't yet addressed (even though some of it worthy) but I'm going to skip ahead to this post so let me know if there's something I missed or neglected you'd like engaged. Let me also say I don't have it all figured out and don't presume to have it all figured out but I have spent a lot of time reading and thinking and praying about this matter of divine epistemology  and determinism. I post with confidence but not so much confidence that I am closed to examination or inquiry. I rely on others to test and know differently and let's face it: you are engaging this matter much more substantively than most. Much appreciated. 

 

That being said, it is very important, significant and critical that we acknowledge and agree God did not create creation to be sinful (and yet that is exactly what has happened). 

I do think it important to get our understanding of satan correct because although scripture does often speak of satan as having power and/or authority or rule I believe it does so rhetorically because scripture also makes some fairly blunt statements about satan's enslavement. Satan does not - properly speaking - have a "domain." If the tradition or mythology of satan being a former archangel who rebelled is true (and I believe that is correct) then he is not the "lord" of anything.

• The wages of sin is death.
• If Lucifer sinned then he suffered the necessary consequences of sin: death and enslavement. 
• If he suffered the enslaving and deadly consequences of sin then he is not a ruler of anything. 
• He is a created creature. 
• No created creature has any authority over his Creator. 
• No finite created creature had any power over an Infinite Creator of that creature.
• No creature can resist its omni-attributed always and everywhere sovereign Creator one fraction of a nanosecond longer than the creator permits.
• Satan roams the earth looking for whom he may devour; this is an allusion to unclean animals who were scavengers or carrion eaters. It is NOT a statement about his power. 
• James says satan flees if and when we resist him, thereby indicating we have power over him, not the other way around.
• Paul writes the armor of God extinguishes ALL his machinations. 
• Jude states quite plainly he and his ilk have been held in eternal bondage in darkness until the day of judgment.
• Scripture plainly states Jesus came to undo his works.
• Scripture plainly states Jesus destroyed what power he possessed. 
• Scripture implies satan's abilities occur solely at the behest or consent of God (more than once). 

These and other statements in scripture directly conflict with the belief satan has any current authority and provides substantive reasons for questioning whether he ever had any power of his own at any time or place. He is a sinner. He is enslaved to sin and dead in sin and he - unlike us - has absolutely no hope of redemption or salvation.  

So I therefore question any premise he has a "domain" beyond what God allows for God's purpose(s).  He plays a role. His role is that of the accuser and the adversary. Nothing more. God gave him that role and God did not ask him if he wanted it. Satan is a minion. 

 

 

I completely agree  good God cannot and did not make creation to be sinful and he most certainly didn't make it so and then called it "good" (Ge. 1:31). 

I have several disagreements with the comments of life and death and flesh and soul but I'm not sure how they are relevant to the question of omniscience versus determinism if we're going to agree whatever is true about life, death, flesh, soul, etc. occur solely as a consequence of God's design. If you think there is something extracurricular beyond the design specs I'd like to read it. Otherwise I think we agree those are each and all examples of design determining outcomes, even if those outcomes are diverse (two or three options instead of a single dictate) and we move on. 

Several points are outside this discussion but quite interesting nonetheless. Looks like 3-4 topics could be had from the above. I know I will range as well in topics and have done so. I suppose that's my view that if we are talking about God's word even in a specific vein, it's still God's word no matter where we end up. Maybe that's a thing that is determined as well?

In my long experience the truths of many concepts are scattered about from Genesis to Revelation. The very character of God brings truth to bear on any topic in my opinion, this one maybe more so as this seems to be all about how, when and why His actions are necessary in the mind, body and soul of mankind to bring about His ends.

In any case I'm not going address any of the above here. 

 

 

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, Josheb said:

This questions speaks to one of the real and true dichotomies scripture asserts. Many a forum discussion is couched in false dichotomies but this one is one the scripture actually teaches: the dichotomy between slaves of sin and slaves of righteousness. There are no free or autonomous creatures; all are limited (volitionally) in some way shape or form. Many ways actually. I again appeal to the simple reality of God's existence; no human's will can usurp God's will. That alone is a limitation, a place where we are not free. There are many, many, many, many others (such as our lack of knowledge). Most limiting, though, is the effects of sin; sin enslaves so egregiously it removes the ability to choose salvation. One of the best expressions of this truth was written by Arminius in Section 7 of Disputation 11 "On the Free Will of Man and Its Powers," in which he states, "In this state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace." 

The scriptures assert this dichotomy, this limitation in many ways: good versus evil, holy versus worldly, flesh versus Spirit, perfection versus imperfection, sin versus righteousness, etc. These things are deterministic and they are aspects of God's design, and God knows about their existence and their effects... and He knows about it on an individual personal level for more than seven billion people. Some of that knowledge is causal and some of it is correlative. 

When become converts the aspects of our humanity are restored AND we are gifted an interactive relationship with God Himself via the regeneration and indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This makes is "freer" but it still does not make us autonomous. Certain determinisms remain and they remain by God's ongoing design. One obvious examples is the effects of sin. We still sin as believers living on this side of the grave because we are still corruptible. We have the power to resist sin and sin no longer brings eternal destruction but there are still consequences for sin not addressed. Becoming born again does not make us impervious from the earthly effects of sin. They remain and they remain deterministic and that conditions exists by God's design. Only the ongoing sanctification of the Holy Spirit and the Word occurring in a life or confession and repentance changes any of it and the unregenerate cannot do any of that. They are dead in sin. 

Death is pretty deterministic apart from Christ . 

 

So, no, believers are not in the same boat. Our boat has some of the same features but it is an entirely different boat and it is headed to an entirely different (pre-)destination ...... by God's foreknown design  stated before hand.  I'm not talking a Cal v Arm interpretation of Ephesians 1. We can all agree there is a destiny awaiting us, the redeemed of Christ whether we agree it the members were selected beforehand or not. The destiny of the redeemed was decided beforehand simply as the destination constituent of salvation. These are the eventual blessings or gifts for the redeemed. They were known by God, decided upon by God, part of God's plan - all known of before either of us were saved - and there is no escape from them; they are positive examples of that which has (already) been determined. 

Abimelech didn't have a clue. 

Neither did Pharaoh . 

Here again we are up against it. I'm pretty sure Eve's will did the opposite of God's will. In fact Satan did as well. This sliver of autonomy is a focus for me. There clearly is some, it's the depth and scope of that divinely granted bit of autonomy that has my attention.

I think I said before the one choice we have that is our privilege and duty is to choose whether or not to believe God or not.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Now this belief is prompted by the call of the Spirit as we know and it cannot be otherwise as you have correctly said. That one bit of belief, that moment of choice when faced with the call of the divine, is ours. Maybe it's the only truly autonomous moment for anyone. 

God is not willing that any should perish but all should come to repentance. Some people will not repent. God's will is thwarted in this case by the inaction of man due to the sin nature of the blood passed to us by our ancestors.

In no way does this remove any sovereignty or power from God it rather shows  destiny determined by choice apart from God's stated desire.  

And again I see a powerful life saving moment given to us by the simplest of means, a free will choice free from any influence internal or external and probably resisting all influence even to death.

Omniscience then is intimate knowledge of all that can be known and while much is determined in regards to ends it's seems inescapable there is a moment for everyone where we decide our destiny.

 

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, Josheb said:

Just covering the base, bro. 

Human-centric thinking is evident anytime (no pun intended) we speak of time solely as we experience it and neglect its irrelevance to God. That's all. The op is about the matter of omniscience and determinism and the way that discussed by those speaking solely from within the earthly experience looks much different than those including the external-to-creation facts (of which we have very little knowledge ). As I noted earlier, the old argument was that of God running ahead of the "timeline" and looking backwards. The early Reformers rejected this notion but they did not fully understand time as we now do. We understand time and space are relative and merely a function of gravity (singularity). Tis would have flown right over the heads of Ignatius, Augustine, Luther, and Calvin. It geatly informs the knowledge and understanding of the pre-existent God's examination of all He created = time is a created part of creation. 

Remember: it has been agree God understands all aspects of His creation. That necessarily means He knows and understands all aspects of time. He's not limited to the linear limit of experiencing time as cause and effect like we are but neither is He limited to the additional examination of time from the end looking backwards. God is not bi-knowing about time; He is omnisicent! He knows ALL. 

And yet His knowledge, whether causal or correlative does no violence to the human will (which He also designed) ot the contingencies of secondary causes (of which He was the First Cause). 

 

And how often do we read our teachers and theologians acknowledging, let along discussing any of this? You appear to be Molinist; is that correct? If so how often do Molinists ever touch on this, let alone expound upon this? You ever read Platinga or Craig expound n these things? (if so I'd like those references )

 

And because of this neglect most discussion on the matter of God's knowledge and determinism end up arguing false dichotomies and human-centric perspectives.  

I don't fit a label. It is my belief that the issue of schism in the body is based on the inability to accept all the evidence in the Word that sheds light on any particular subject. People and groups tend toward a single truth and fiercely cling to it in ignorance of other truth. I think I have said before that a truth of scripture, any maxim or axiom, is not more true that any other. All scriptural truths bring light to the soul and none should be held in esteem over another. Yet that is what happens and it divides. Possibly that is also determined not by God but the evil in mankind.

Long ago I stopped listening to mankind. Just got sick of being abused and lied to. I don't ignore but I do verify, Holmesian style.

I don't disagree prima facie with the rest of the post, just wanted to clarify where I'm coming from.

[Desopixi Seilynam]

Before creation,
God determined to allow His creatures to have their own will.
[Numbers 15:3, Leviticus 22:21, James 1:14]
Allowing them to make their own choices
would introduce the possibility of sin and death,
but He planned on tackling sin and death Himself through Christ,
that was the wise plan since before anything was made.
[Col 1:15-17 Prov 8:23]

Edited July 22, 2021 by Desopixi Seilynam

[Desopixi Seilynam]

7 minutes ago, Josheb said:

The last two verses listed are about Jesus, not what God allowed His created to have. 

"I [wisdom] was set up from everlasting, before ever the earth was."
Proverbs 8:23

"Christ is before all things, and in Him all things consist."
Colossians 1:17

From these two we can conclude that the wise plan of Christ was first.

From James 1:14 we can see that we do have our own will.
And everything we have is given to us by God.

[Desopixi Seilynam]

8 minutes ago, Josheb said:

No, we cannot. You are making an inference AND an inference based on other inferences, not on anything actually, specifically, or explicitly stated in God's word. 

"But every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own desires and enticed."
James 1:14 and the other passages already given speak of 'free will'.
 

By 'free will' I just mean the ability to choose, not the definition you gave.
It is clear from scripture that we do have a God given ability to choose.