Israel in Prophesy (still future vs 1948)

[dad2]

26 minutes ago, Josheb said:

In some cases that is true. That is not the case in Matthew 24. In the case of Matthew 24 is answering a specific three-pronged question asked by the disciples specifically related to things they had heard him say earlier that day. They had heard him lay into the Pharisees and declare judgment upon the Pharisees. They had heard Jesus declare the temple desolate. They heard him tell them everything they were looking at would be dismantled and destroyed. And that was only half-way through their day. 

Leading up to Jesus' arrival in Jerusalem they'd noted how his parables began to become about judgment. They watched him chase out the moneychangers and declare everyone thieves. They were there the next day when he returned to the temple only to be challenged by the chief priest and then the Pharisees and then the Sadducees and then the Pharisees again - one day of constant challenge, constant disbelief, constant disrespect. 

You understand Jesus is the Son of God, yes? 

Jesus knows why he is there. He knows he's gonna be murdered in a few days and he knows it will bring delight to his Father for his Father to crush him. 

The Jews don't have a clue. 

The disciples have watched all this unfold. 

So at days end, as they look across the saddle between Jerusalem and the Mount of Olives, as they look down upon the roof of the gold-clad temple they ask Jesus a very specific question and he answers them. He looks them right in the face and states, "You will see....." 

 

His use of the word "you" is not a reference to people who did not then exist. There's an enormous problem with the futurist interpretation that perhaps might not have been considered. If Jesus is referencing some yet to be known group of people living in the 21st century (or later) then everything he's said is meaningless for everyone living in between that day and the days those things happen. 

Scripture is never meaningless. The futurist interpretations make scripture meaningless for centuries worth of Christians. Al those words in scripture have no meaning, no application, no significance for those people. That interpretation also ends up keeping every person in a state of constant vigilance for event that will not happen. In our time it has led to decade after decade after decade  two centuries worth - of false teachers repeatedly teaching scripture says thing about our future that NEVER come true. 

It's a bad theology.

The you are believers. When it says things like 'then you that are in Judea..' He is talking to those THEN when the things happen.

I notice no one answered the question I asked that demolished the possibility those things were in the past.

 

Once again, here it is

 

Explain how these things already happened?

Bowl 1: "…harmful and painful sores came upon the people who bore the mark of the beast and worshiped its image" (Revelation 16:2). The first bowl only affects those who have chosen to follow the Antichrist and not those who have chosen to follow God.

Bowl 2: "…it became like the blood of a corpse, and every living thing died that was in the sea" (Revelation 16:3). The second bowl kills the remaining life in the sea. A third of sea life has already been killed by the second trumpet.

Bowl 3: "…into the rivers and the springs of water, and they became blood" (Revelation 16:4). The third bowl turns all the sources of fresh water into blood. The angel declares that God is just in His judgment because the evil people of the earth have shed the blood of believers; they will now drink that blood.

Bowl 4: "…on the sun, and it was allowed to scorch people with fire" (Revelation 16:8). The fourth bowl causes the sun to burn people with its fierce heat and they curse God, but still do not repent and give God glory.

Bowl 5: "… the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness" (Revelation 16:10). The fifth bowl covers the Antichrist's kingdom in darkness. The darkness is so agonizing that the people gnaw their tongues in pain. However, they continue to curse God and not repent.

Bowl 6: "… the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, to prepare the way for the kings from the east" (Revelation 16:12). The sixth bowl dries up the Euphrates river preparing a way for Satan, the Antichrist, and the false prophet to deceive the remaining leaders of the world and prepare for the final battle against Jesus at a place called Armageddon.

Bowl 7: "… into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, 'It is done!'" (Revelation 16:17). The seventh bowl announces the end of the judgments on the world. There will be a great earthquake as the earth has never seen before. Jerusalem will split into three parts and the cities of the nations will fall. Mountains and islands will disappear and giant, hundred-pound hailstones will fall on people. The people curse God, but do not repent. This bowl has interesting parallels to the moment of Jesus' death on the cross. In His final breath He says, "It is finished" (John 19:30) and the earth shakes and the veil in the temple is torn in two (Matthew 27:51).

 

Edited July 31, 2021 by dad2

[Justin Adams]

51 minutes ago, dad2 said:

Not sure why you try to put everything in the past.

Read and understand Revelation and Daniel without recourse to Dispensational ideas. Is that even possible these days due to centuries of disinformation..?  

[dad2]

22 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

Read and understand Revelation and Daniel without recourse to Dispensational ideas. Is that even possible these days due to centuries of disinformation..?  

You need to read as the Spirit of God clearly speaks the times and seasons and context. That is called understanding.

 

Perhaps you can explain how all this happened already? If so I assume you don't drink water?

 

Explain how these things already happened?

Bowl 1: "…harmful and painful sores came upon the people who bore the mark of the beast and worshiped its image" (Revelation 16:2). The first bowl only affects those who have chosen to follow the Antichrist and not those who have chosen to follow God.

Bowl 2: "…it became like the blood of a corpse, and every living thing died that was in the sea" (Revelation 16:3). The second bowl kills the remaining life in the sea. A third of sea life has already been killed by the second trumpet.

Bowl 3: "…into the rivers and the springs of water, and they became blood" (Revelation 16:4). The third bowl turns all the sources of fresh water into blood. The angel declares that God is just in His judgment because the evil people of the earth have shed the blood of believers; they will now drink that blood.

Bowl 4: "…on the sun, and it was allowed to scorch people with fire" (Revelation 16:8). The fourth bowl causes the sun to burn people with its fierce heat and they curse God, but still do not repent and give God glory.

Bowl 5: "… the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness" (Revelation 16:10). The fifth bowl covers the Antichrist's kingdom in darkness. The darkness is so agonizing that the people gnaw their tongues in pain. However, they continue to curse God and not repent.

Bowl 6: "… the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, to prepare the way for the kings from the east" (Revelation 16:12). The sixth bowl dries up the Euphrates river preparing a way for Satan, the Antichrist, and the false prophet to deceive the remaining leaders of the world and prepare for the final battle against Jesus at a place called Armageddon.

Bowl 7: "… into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, 'It is done!'" (Revelation 16:17). The seventh bowl announces the end of the judgments on the world. There will be a great earthquake as the earth has never seen before. Jerusalem will split into three parts and the cities of the nations will fall. Mountains and islands will disappear and giant, hundred-pound hailstones will fall on people. The people curse God, but do not repent. This bowl has interesting parallels to the moment of Jesus' death on the cross. In His final breath He says, "It is finished" (John 19:30) and the earth shakes and the veil in the temple is torn in two (Matthew 27:51).

[AandW_Rootbeer]

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

False. The abomination of desolation was not set up, or there would have been a countdown set off that moment. 

Matthew 24:15

 

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

 

..then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24:22

 

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened

 

Daniel 12:11

 

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days

 

In case anyone is unclear on when those days of tribulation are, here is Jesus to clear that up

 

Matthew 24:29

 

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:30

 

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

-for the win

 

 

 

How can you believe you are winning, when you are speaking of Two Events Spoken about in Matthew 24, and you continue to converge them into one idealism that is false?

 

In one post, you admit past and future Tribulation, and then in the next, you take 2 descriptions of two separate events and combine them as a single event.

 

Are you aware that Matthew 24 speaks of Two Tribulations?

If you are, can you show me which Verses pertain to 70 A.D. and which Verses described what is still to happen?

[AandW_Rootbeer]

6 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Or Jesus was speaking in two different ways about a single protracted tribulation. 

 

How do you arrive at the conclusion two entirely different unrelated tribulations are broached in Mt. 24?

Matthew 24:

All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

 

Speak of 2 different era's

 

But much of the first portion speak of 70 A.D.

[Alive]

Please stick to the topic brothers---debate the subject and not the individual.

Topic--topic.

Thank you for your rapt attention in this matter.

[AandW_Rootbeer]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Merely quoting scripture and then making claims about what was quoted is not evidence of anything. It's not evidence for anything and it's not evidence against anything. I can quote scripture and then make claims about it. That does not make my claims true. 

Haggai 2:1-9
"On the twenty-first of the seventh month, the word of the LORD came by Haggai the prophet saying,  "Speak now to Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and to Joshua the son of Jehozadak, the high priest, and to the remnant of the people saying,  'Who is left among you who saw this temple in its former glory? And how do you see it now? Does it not seem to you like nothing in comparison?  ~'But now take courage, Zerubbabel,' declares the LORD, 'take courage also, Joshua son of Jehozadak, the high priest, and all you people of the land take courage,' declares the LORD, 'and work; for I am with you,' declares the LORD of hosts.  'As for the promise which I made you when you came out of Egypt, My Spirit is abiding in your midst; do not fear!'  "For thus says the LORD of hosts, 'Once more in a little while, I am going to shake the heavens and the earth, the sea also and the dry land.  ~'I will shake all the nations; and they will come with the wealth of all nations, and I will fill this house with glory,' says the LORD of hosts.  'The silver is Mine and the gold is Mine,' declares the LORD of hosts.  'The latter glory of this house will be greater than the former,' says the LORD of hosts, 'and in this place I will give peace,' declares the LORD of hosts."

Haggai is talking about their not brushing their teeth! Oh, no! My bad. He's talking about two different tribulations!

I asked how you arrived at two different tribs AND (in case it was not realized at the time) I provided an alternative that had to be precluded in order for a two-trib interpretation to be veracious. So let's try it again. 

 

How is the conclusion reached there are two entirely different unrelated tribulations being broached in Mt. 24?  The text itself does not say any such thing.

 

 

.

I do not see them as being broached from how I can see Matthew 24 laid out.   There are parts of 2 sets of warnings going to happen.   The Verses I posted represent that warning for the listener of that day and for the reader of it later on.   One discussion concerned 70 A.D., the other concerns the days leading up to the Second Coming:

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

[dad2]

2 hours ago, AandW_Rootbeer said:

How can you believe you are winning, when you are speaking of Two Events Spoken about in Matthew 24, and you continue to converge them into one idealism that is false?

 

In one post, you admit past and future Tribulation, and then in the next, you take 2 descriptions of two separate events and combine them as a single event.

 

Are you aware that Matthew 24 speaks of Two Tribulations?

If you are, can you show me which Verses pertain to 70 A.D. and which Verses described what is still to happen?

There can be and is only one Great Tribulation. Nothing to do with the various little tribulations in the past. Soon as you answer the question I asked I can look at your question.

 

Explain how these things already happened?

Bowl 1: "…harmful and painful sores came upon the people who bore the mark of the beast and worshiped its image" (Revelation 16:2). The first bowl only affects those who have chosen to follow the Antichrist and not those who have chosen to follow God.

Bowl 2: "…it became like the blood of a corpse, and every living thing died that was in the sea" (Revelation 16:3). The second bowl kills the remaining life in the sea. A third of sea life has already been killed by the second trumpet.

Bowl 3: "…into the rivers and the springs of water, and they became blood" (Revelation 16:4). The third bowl turns all the sources of fresh water into blood. The angel declares that God is just in His judgment because the evil people of the earth have shed the blood of believers; they will now drink that blood.

Bowl 4: "…on the sun, and it was allowed to scorch people with fire" (Revelation 16:8). The fourth bowl causes the sun to burn people with its fierce heat and they curse God, but still do not repent and give God glory.

Bowl 5: "… the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness" (Revelation 16:10). The fifth bowl covers the Antichrist's kingdom in darkness. The darkness is so agonizing that the people gnaw their tongues in pain. However, they continue to curse God and not repent.

Bowl 6: "… the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, to prepare the way for the kings from the east" (Revelation 16:12). The sixth bowl dries up the Euphrates river preparing a way for Satan, the Antichrist, and the false prophet to deceive the remaining leaders of the world and prepare for the final battle against Jesus at a place called Armageddon.

Bowl 7: "… into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, 'It is done!'" (Revelation 16:17). The seventh bowl announces the end of the judgments on the world. There will be a great earthquake as the earth has never seen before. Jerusalem will split into three parts and the cities of the nations will fall. Mountains and islands will disappear and giant, hundred-pound hailstones will fall on people. The people curse God, but do not repent. This bowl has interesting parallels to the moment of Jesus' death on the cross. In His final breath He says, "It is finished" (John 19:30) and the earth shakes and the veil in the temple is torn in two (Matthew 27:51).

 

 Can you refresh our memory as to when every living thing is the oceans died for example in 70AD? Hahaha

 

As I said I win.

[AandW_Rootbeer]

17 minutes ago, dad2 said:

There can be and is only one Great Tribulation. Nothing to do with the various little tribulations in the past. Soon as you answer the question I asked I can look at your question.

 

Explain how these things already happened?

Bowl 1: "…harmful and painful sores came upon the people who bore the mark of the beast and worshiped its image" (Revelation 16:2). The first bowl only affects those who have chosen to follow the Antichrist and not those who have chosen to follow God.

Bowl 2: "…it became like the blood of a corpse, and every living thing died that was in the sea" (Revelation 16:3). The second bowl kills the remaining life in the sea. A third of sea life has already been killed by the second trumpet.

Bowl 3: "…into the rivers and the springs of water, and they became blood" (Revelation 16:4). The third bowl turns all the sources of fresh water into blood. The angel declares that God is just in His judgment because the evil people of the earth have shed the blood of believers; they will now drink that blood.

Bowl 4: "…on the sun, and it was allowed to scorch people with fire" (Revelation 16:8). The fourth bowl causes the sun to burn people with its fierce heat and they curse God, but still do not repent and give God glory.

Bowl 5: "… the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness" (Revelation 16:10). The fifth bowl covers the Antichrist's kingdom in darkness. The darkness is so agonizing that the people gnaw their tongues in pain. However, they continue to curse God and not repent.

Bowl 6: "… the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, to prepare the way for the kings from the east" (Revelation 16:12). The sixth bowl dries up the Euphrates river preparing a way for Satan, the Antichrist, and the false prophet to deceive the remaining leaders of the world and prepare for the final battle against Jesus at a place called Armageddon.

Bowl 7: "… into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, 'It is done!'" (Revelation 16:17). The seventh bowl announces the end of the judgments on the world. There will be a great earthquake as the earth has never seen before. Jerusalem will split into three parts and the cities of the nations will fall. Mountains and islands will disappear and giant, hundred-pound hailstones will fall on people. The people curse God, but do not repent. This bowl has interesting parallels to the moment of Jesus' death on the cross. In His final breath He says, "It is finished" (John 19:30) and the earth shakes and the veil in the temple is torn in two (Matthew 27:51).

 

 Can you refresh our memory as to when every living thing is the oceans died for example in 70AD? Hahaha

 

As I said I win.

Look, For some very important areas you believe in, I see it similar.  But Christ is talking to two audiences that day He mentions the Temple being Destroyed.   He was explaining to the ones who can hear His very words(which was going to happen in 70 A.D.).   And then, when the Holy Spirit began leading men to write down Matthew/Mark/Luke/Thessalonians/Jude/Revelation for <Readers> to read, there is a Message concerning the Wrath of God when these same conditions found in Matthew 24:9-14 resurface and the Warning these Wraths were going to Follow before His Second Coming.

All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Edited July 31, 2021 by AandW_Rootbeer

[dad2]

51 minutes ago, AandW_Rootbeer said:

Look, For some very important areas you believe in, I see it similar.  But Christ is talking to two audiences that day He mentions the Temple being Destroyed.   He was explaining to the ones who can hear His very words(which was going to happen in 70 A.D.).   And then, when the Holy Spirit began leading men to write down Matthew/Mark/Luke/Thessalonians/Jude/Revelation for <Readers> to read, there is a Message concerning the Wrath of God when these same conditions found in Matthew 24:9-14 resurface and the Warning these Wraths were going to Follow before His Second Coming.

All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Not sure why you posted those verses. Do you think they are all past also? The temple being destroyed was prophesied but not part of the great tribulation by any stretch of the imagination.