Israel in Prophesy (still future vs 1948)

[dad2]

31 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Got any scripture for that? Do you know much history? How about physics (what actually happens if the sun goes out?)? 

Here's some recommended reading aside from Chilton's book and those ops to which I linked everyone: 

"Before Jerusalem Fell" by Kenneth Gentry
"The Bible and the Future" by Anthony Hoekema
"A Case for Amillennialism" by Kim Riddlebarger
"Last Days Madness" by Gary Demar 

I'm not saying you have to agree with everything they write, just that there is a lot of information for you to consider that is very relevant. There was no mistaking when the tribulation days of vengeance occurred. Modern-day futurists ignore both scripture and Church doctrinal history to rely on a guy who quite literally invented! stuff nowhere stated in scripture. His invention is less than 200 years old but because few know modern church history (and the occurring heresies) they don't know Darbyism is new or how radically different it is. 

I'll leave you with this simple comparison of two passages having to do with the "days of vengeance." The term originally comes from Isaiah. Although God spoke of His vengeance very early on in scripture the day of vengeance is found in Isaiah 61. 

Isaiah 61:1-6
"The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, because the LORD has anointed me to bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to captives and freedom to prisoners;  to proclaim the favorable year of the LORD and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn,  to grant those who mourn in Zion, giving them a garland instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of mourning, the mantle of praise instead of a spirit of fainting. So they will be called oaks of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.  Then they will rebuild the ancient ruins, they will raise up the former devastations; and they will repair the ruined cities, the desolations of many generations.  Strangers will stand and pasture your flocks, and foreigners will be your farmers and your vinedressers.  But you will be called the priests of the LORD; you will be spoken of as ministers of our God. You will eat the wealth of nations, and in their riches you will boast."

It is mentioned again two chapters later. 

Isaiah 63:1-6
"Who is this who comes from Edom, with garments of glowing colors from Bozrah, this One who is majestic in His apparel, marching in the greatness of His strength? It is I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save.  Why is your apparel red, and your garments like the one who treads in the wine press?  I have trodden the wine trough alone, and from the peoples there was no man with Me. I also trod them in My anger and trampled them in My wrath; and their lifeblood is sprinkled on my garments, and I stained all my raiment.  For the day of vengeance was in My heart, and My year of redemption has come.  I looked, and there was no one to help, And I was astonished and there was no one to uphold; So My own arm brought salvation to Me, And My wrath upheld Me.  I trod down the peoples in My anger And made them drunk in My wrath, and I poured out their lifeblood on the earth."

So we see the day of vengeance is tied to the Spirit of the Lord being upon His anointed and his bringing the good new to the afflicted, his setting free the captives (remember Zechariah 9?) the planting of the Lord, the repair of ruined cities and desolate generations, and the calling of all to be priests of God. The day of vengeance is tied to to the one who is righteous to save, the bloody garment, and the year of redemption, and God's own arm bring salvation. All of these things are associated in the New Testament with Jesus in his incarnation. 

Jesus himself plainly stated the Isaiah 61 text was coming true in the days of his earthly ministry. 

Luke 4:16-21
"And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read.  And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written,  'The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed,  to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.'  And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him.  And he began to say to them, 'Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.'”

Then later in his ministry, just before he was to surrender his life for us, Jesus again referenced Isaiah to say, 

Luke 21:20-24
"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.  Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;  because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.  Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;  and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

Remember what I said about the basic precepts of reading and understanding scripture: identify the author and his audience and first understand the text as the author and his original audience would have understood it. 

So ask yourself, "Who is the 'you' in the Luke 21 passage?" because the original audience and the "you" of Luke 21:20-24 is NOT anyone living in the 21st century. The audience affiliation has to be completely ignored in order for that interpretation to be made and anyone holding to a literal reading of scripture has just violated their own rules if they don't read the "you" as Jesus audience that day. His audience did see Jerusalem surrounded by armies and they did see it trampled by Gentiles. History records the survivors fled to the mountains - as far as we know not a single Christian was killed. 

Jesus quoted from Isaiah and he told his first century listeners they would see the events he was describing. He told them they would see Isaiah's days of vengeance. 

Do you believe God's word?

Do you believe God's word as written? 

D you believe God's word as written without any modern-day embellishment?

If the answer to those questions is "Yes," then the days of vengeance have come and gone and whether or not we understand how they manifested in the New Testament era they did happen. Scripture says so. 

 

 

This exchange between us started because I asked a few fairly plain, simple, and very relevant-to-your-comment questions and it took me request after request after request after request after request after request and I still didn't get any scripture. I got some rhetorical questions that showed an effort to shift the onus but o answer to the question(s) asked. 

If you will notice scripture itself states quite plainly Isaiah's day of vengeance happened in the time of Jesus' audience. There can be no mistaking what scripture states.

Not sure what is left to discuss. The days of vengeance could not possibly be over yet. That doesn't mean there were some times when some sort of vengeance was done in history. I already cited several things that show it was not possibly in the past. Just google trumpets or vials or bowls of wrath.

 As for your incredulity based on modern science, where you asked what happens if the sun goes out, science does not know how the sun actually works. It has theories. Even if it did work as they believed, that can change in a moment. When God says the sun and stars of heaven will not give light, I believe it.

Finally your claim that the days of vengeance happened in Jesus' day that illustrates that you do not understand what you read. As I said the Spirit is needed to do that. 

There is no common ground for us. All you could do is address the OP. Provide a verse that you think says Israel was brought by God already and dwells in safety etc.

[dad2]

1 hour ago, AandW_Rootbeer said:

I firmly believe this and hinted at earlier in response to the Thread Op.

 

The Prophecy was solely about Jerusalem, not the State of Israel, and still in 1948 Israel became a recognized State on a worldwide scale.

Can you cite this prophesy that is only about the city?

[other one]

2 hours ago, dad2 said:

No gentiles in Jerusalem today? Or do they simply not 'trod' any longer?

they do not have control.

 

[dad2]

22 minutes ago, other one said:

they do not have control.

 

Definition of trod

tread

[ tred ]

 

 

See synonyms for: tread / treading / trodden / trod on Thesaurus.com

---

verb (used without object), trod, trod·den or trod, tread·ing.

to set down the foot or feet in walking; step; walk.

to step, walk, or trample so as to press, crush, or injure something (usually followed by on or upon):

 

I don't see the control part in there, do you? 

[abcdef]

51 minutes ago, dad2 said:

Can you cite this prophesy that is only about the city?

Lk 21:24

[other one]

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

Definition of trod

tread

[ tred ]

 

 

See synonyms for: tread / treading / trodden / trod on Thesaurus.com

---

verb (used without object), trod, trod·den or trod, tread·ing.

to set down the foot or feet in walking; step; walk.

to step, walk, or trample so as to press, crush, or injure something (usually followed by on or upon):

 

I don't see the control part in there, do you? 

Yes

 

[AandW_Rootbeer]

2 hours ago, dad2 said:

Can you cite this prophesy that is only about the city?

Luke 21:24 

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

 

This portion of the Verse is the actual prophecy concerning (only) the City of Jerusalem and (not) the State of Israel:

and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

[dad2]

2 hours ago, abcdef said:

Lk 21:24

I saw nothing in there that could relate to 1967.  I did see in verse 22 this

 

²² For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

 

So unless you claim ALL was fulfilled already, that chapter does anything but help a claim that it was in 1967 (or any time in the past)

[dad2]

 

21 minutes ago, AandW_Rootbeer said:

Luke 21:24 

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

 

This portion of the Verse is the actual prophecy concerning (only) the City of Jerusalem and (not) the State of Israel:

and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Nope, verse 22 points out that ALL must be fulfilled in this time of vengeance. Not just armies surrounding Jerusalem. That chapter has zero to do with God bring them back in history.

Edited July 29, 2021 by dad2

[dad2]

1 hour ago, other one said:

Yes

 

There are gentiles in Jerusalem. If you notice the mount of Olives there is not split from east to west and a big valley formed as a result where Jesus judged the nations either..etc. There is no way to claim that the vengeance and all things prophesied have already happened. Therefore God di not bring back the saved Jews there yet. Grasping at straws to try to sort of make it sound like it is almost feasible is not an honest approach.