An Importance of Faithfulness to a Local Church

[Ray12614]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Are you saying that every word I have said on this subject and many others to many people have all been worthless and a waste of time? No

So if I am led where I am led it's meaningless unless it's under the auspices of a local church? No

How does my status negate the above scripture of truth you pointed out? Do you assume I have no face to face with believers ever? Yes. From you earlier description about how you are worthless to the church, that is exactly what I would assume.

Do you further assume love is only shown in the 'church'? No. I am talking about the body of Christ (who also have needs) ministering to each other.

I cannot help those in need unless it's brick and mortar approved? NO . Gathering together, be it a church building, home church, gathering outside (as we saw in CA during an governor shut down of chuch buildings) 

When have I said no one should gather together? I assume from your original responce you basically abhor local churches. Am I wrong?

This whole OP is about the 'faithfulness to a local church'. I am the church. No you are not; You are part of the church

 You are the church. No I am not. I am part of the church too.

The church is not a building. YES, finally we agree!  LOL. the assembly of the church is where believers come together whereever that may be. In a church building, home church, hiding in caves as believers in Afghanistan are now doing.

I find the premise of the OP way off base. We are faithful to the Lord and our God in the unity of the spirit. I don't deny there is merit in gathering. But where two or three are gathered in His name is where He is. 

So what are we doing here? Is this not a great gathering of people in the Spirit? Can we deny this site is not of the Spirit? Do we not talk about spiritual things in the name of Jesus here? A great many have been helped through Worthy and none can deny this. But I suppose that's just the approved kind of spiritual growth and it's not real spirituality when people disagree.

At the very foundation is the Word. It's a book. Jesus doesn't visit you in a face to face to expound. Our conscience, behavior, growth, relationships, perceptions, destiny and all the promises to which we cling are in a book. In words. Written. 

I can repeat those same words and they have the same weight whether spoken or written. 

----------------------

If you check with George, I think you will find out that he never intends Worthy to be an replacement for the local church, but, an addition to it where people of all backgrounds (as you alluded to above) can have some degree of fellowship. But make no mistake about it - as good as Worthy is, it is an more shallow fellowship than face-2-face fellowship, and corporate worship, and all the questions I asked you earlier but you didn't answer. And frankly . . . . . . 

What did I need when I lose my two daughters to cancer? (and I have done that) Did I need doctrinal expose on how they are in heaven? Do I need somebody's opinion in an online forum? NOOOOOOO!!!  I needed some brothers and sisters who loved me, and could just hold me while I cry! I needed the body of Christ to sit with me, cry with me, allow me to vent some anger over what has happened to my daughters! I needed somebody to take my hands, look at me straight in the face, and tell me that God loves me, that he has not abandoned me! I needed somebody to Pray with me, and obtain the manifested comfort that only the Hold Spirit can do through the extended hands and feet of the local assembly. My local church body prayed for me corporately, and personally. They gave me money to cover funeral costs and extra expenses that I could not pay at that time. They catered meals to my family for weeks. Spent time consoling me and my wife and children!!!  Go ahead! Try doing that on some online forum somewhere!  It will only be shallow doctrine and shallow prayers because you and I don't really know each other due to lack of face to face fellowship.

IF I was not an active assembling part of my local church nobody would have known of my loss, and I would not have support from the body of Christ. I would not have been in an place where Jesus could use His people to help me. You can tell me that Church attendance and faithfulness to an local church is not required to be a Christian, and I will agree.  But don't you dare teach this online community that they have no need of an local church body. IF that is what you are alluding to, I reject it and that stone cold doctrine, dancing around quoting scriptures to prove you personal likes and doctrine because some church somewhere rejected you 'superior' knowledge of scriptures. 

I am done talking about this, and will let you have the last word, I am sure you will. I am weary of this forum foolishness . . . . 

 

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

 

 

 

[Kelly2363]

32 minutes ago, Ray12614 said:

If you check with George, I think you will find out that he never intends Worthy to be an replacement for the local church, but, an addition to it where people of all backgrounds (as you alluded to above) can have some degree of fellowship. But make no mistake about it - as good as Worthy is, it is an more shallow fellowship than face-2-face fellowship, and corporate worship, and all the questions I asked you earlier but you didn't answer. And frankly . . . . . . 

What did I need when I lose my two daughters to cancer? (and I have done that) Did I need doctrinal expose on how they are in heaven? Do I need somebody's opinion in an online forum? NOOOOOOO!!!  I needed some brothers and sisters who loved me, and could just hold me while I cry! I needed the body of Christ to sit with me, cry with me, allow me to vent some anger over what has happened to my daughters! I needed somebody to take my hands, look at me straight in the face, and tell me that God loves me, that he has not abandoned me! I needed somebody to Pray with me, and obtain the manifested comfort that only the Hold Spirit can do through the extended hands and feet of the local assembly. My local church body prayed for me corporately, and personally. They gave me money to cover funeral costs and extra expenses that I could not pay at that time. They catered meals to my family for weeks. Spent time consoling me and my wife and children!!!  Go ahead! Try doing that on some online forum somewhere!  It will only be shallow doctrine and shallow prayers because you and I don't really know each other due to lack of face to face fellowship.

IF I was not an active assembling part of my local church nobody would have known of my loss, and I would not have support from the body of Christ. I would not have been in an place where Jesus could use His people to help me. You can tell me that Church attendance and faithfulness to an local church is not required to be a Christian, and I will agree.  But don't you dare teach this online community that they have no need of an local church body. IF that is what you are alluding to, I reject it and that stone cold doctrine, dancing around quoting scriptures to prove you personal likes and doctrine because some church somewhere rejected you 'superior' knowledge of scriptures. 

I am done talking about this, and will let you have the last word, I am sure you will. I am weary of this forum foolishness . . . . 

I took the liberty of opening your reply to @Diaste up because it was caught up in the quotation mask of your post and so wasnt really easily seen.

[Starise]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

So what are we doing here? Is this not a great gathering of people in the Spirit? Can we deny this site is not of the Spirit? Do we not talk about spiritual things in the name of Jesus here? A great many have been helped through Worthy and none can deny this. But I suppose that's just the approved kind of spiritual growth and it's not real spirituality when people disagree.

And this confirms the way people deal with problems they don't want to see.Same as many local churches. 

Basically if your ideas don't fit, then you don't fit here. Not everyone but a few follow this reasoning.

Instead of " Yeah there are some problems in the church brother" it's my problem.

[not an echo]

On 8/31/2021 at 8:47 AM, Josheb said:

I could have written that (woulda had to change the engine to a chain saw, but very similar). I'm about your age and also stopped going to Sunday services and other corporate expressions of religious faith as a teen. 

Hello Josheb,

I got a nasty chain saw cut one time, 30 stitches worth!  But, I didn't even feel it!  The saw continued a little swing after I had cut through a branch (horizontally) of a tree that was on the ground, and I noticed that it snagged my pants about midway of my shin.  When I looked through the hole in my pants (about 3-4" long), I saw my leg was cut (the side of my leg, just missing the bone).  Now, when that fan blade hit my finger, it was like a hatchet.  Makes me shiver, even now.

On 8/31/2021 at 8:47 AM, Josheb said:

I capitalize the word "Church" to mean the body of Christ and use the word "congregation" or the lower-case church in reference to local gathers' of the Church, local gatherings of those called out by God, those constituting the members of body of Christ.

This has also been a practice of mine for years.  I often tell our little "c" church that we are a part of something much much bigger, the capital "C" Church.   This has always resonated well with everyone.

On 8/31/2021 at 8:47 AM, Josheb said:

Good op

Thanks!  My almost losing my finger ended up being like a made-to-order illustration, or parable, that has helped both me and many others that I have shared it with.  Christ still speaks in parables, if we listen!

[not an echo]

On 9/2/2021 at 1:56 AM, Kelly2363 said:

On 9/2/2021 at 1:27 AM, not an echo said:

What in the world then do I think it takes to rate a ten on a scale of one to ten?  Stay with me now.  True Christianity is about walking with Christ on Monday (I raise a 4th finger), walking with Christ on Tuesday (I raise a 5th finger), walking with Christ on Wednesday, before the Wednesday night service (I raise a 6th finger), walking with Christ on Thursday (I raise a 7th finger), walking with Christ on Friday (I raise an 8th finger), walking with Christ on Saturday (I raise a 9th finger), and finally, walking with Christ after the benediction prayer on Sunday morning, in that interval of time between the morning and the night service (if there is a night service).  (Of course, at this time I will have all my fingers raised, and will use this opportunity to teach the importance of walking with Christ, or being a disciple.)  That's how my little illustration goes.  But, I think it effectively makes an important point.

 

I know you were not trying to be humorous here but I was reminded of a sister who was also a school teacher taking dozens of balls of coloured wool and passing them from one believer in the group to the next believer using their fingers as pegs. After tying the whole group up in multicoloured knots of wool with all ten fingers extended across the group and complete chaos - she triumphantly declared - in Christ we are all connected. Then a booming voice came across the hall saying, "you lot have been in a mess for the whole time I have known you - so yes we are all connected in Christ."

We are just a lovely mess. Amen. 

Hello Kelly,

Your story reminded me of what we called a "blessing ball" that we used to have a lot of fun with in children's church (where my wife and I went to church some 30 years ago).  We made it out of old bed sheets that we cut into long 2" wide strips and then tied the strips together to make a very, very long sheet rope.  We took this and rolled it up into a big loose ball (about the size of a large cantaloupe).  I would hold the ball and share about something that had been a blessing to me in the previous week.  Then, I would ask if anyone else had been blessed, and if so, to raise their hand.  I would then hold the end of the sheet rope and throw the rest of the ball to whoever had his or her hand raised.  This person (it might have been a kid or another adult helper/whoever!) would then share what had blessed them.  Then, we would have another show of hands.  The person holding the ball would then continue to hold their portion of the sheet rope and would throw it to the next person.  And so on and so on and so on till we were all tangled up in the blessing ball!  Afterwards, we would roll it back up again and put it in its designated place till someone suggested that we do the "blessing ball" again.  The kids loved it.  To be quite honest, I loved it too!

[Starise]

Well Hello @not an echo 

 

[not an echo]

On 9/2/2021 at 4:31 AM, Diaste said:

On 9/2/2021 at 1:27 AM, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

I would like to again reinforce everything I said in my opening post to this thread.  It was something that I did prayerfully, and my prayer remains that it will be helpful to someone, even you.

This is the reason I no longer wish to associate with the Christian Religion. 

"...even you."  Wow.

Hello Diaste,

You can strike the "even you" part, as I didn't mean it the way you have taken it.

This thread would not even be in existence if it were not that I cared enough to share something from my life experience that I thought might be an encouragement to you.  Do you remember my following closing post and your reply to it from our conversation in another thread?  Consider what I was seeing you say...

====================

On 8/8/2021 at 12:34 AM, not an echo said:

Well, I need to hit the sack.  Looking forward to going to Church tomorrow.  Hope you are too.

Church? And be lied to? No thanks.

====================

 

Do you remember my reply to you in that thread?  It kind of puts all of this in context.  Here is part of what I said to you at that time...

====================

On 8/8/2021 at 7:27 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/8/2021 at 12:34 AM, not an echo said:

Well, I need to hit the sack.  Looking forward to going to Church tomorrow.  Hope you are too.

Church? And be lied to? No thanks.

Hello Diaste,

It saddens me to hear you say this.  And, how to respond???  I don't want to just say nothing, because for me, that would be like just not caring.  And sometimes, a lot of time can be spent trying to give a helpful response, which just ends up buried in a thread to never be seen again.  So, I determined to start another thread, this one related to my experience(s) and some thoughts I have had on the importance of church attendance.  There is a big part of me, and I mean a big part, that can empathize with you and your above statement Diaste.  I can see myself there when I was 25, only my statement at that time would have been more along the line of "Church?  And be hurt again?  No thanks."  Over the decades, I've seen a lot that wasn't right in churches.  But, at 25, I realized in a big way that there was also a lot that wasn't right with a lot of other things in this world.  And, at 25, I had seen enough of it that I guess God felt it was a good time to get my attention with the inspiration to give Him the same chance that I have given the world.  I've been doing that now for 38 years, and part of giving God the same chance that I had given the world was in giving the things of God that same chance too.  I soon discovered that I had been given to making allowances for a lot of other things that were hurting me a lot worse than church attendance ever had (or would).  Now, as I look back, I can see how that God has used the local church to help me far more than anything else that this world has to offer that I was ever caught up in...  

====================

I can't really say that I am sorry for the "even you" part, for again, I did not mean it the way you took it.  At the close of my opening post for this thread, I stated, "I hope that in some way this is a help to someone."  The next post in this thread is yours and you take off on slamming religion.  Well, I understood that!  Only thing is, that is not what my opening post was about.  I see the "religion" you are talking about as being what the scribes and Pharisees were steeped in, which thing Jesus slammed!  So, I get that Diaste, but that has nothing to do with what I am trying to encourage you (and others) concerning.

In my second post of this thread, I tried to clarify this by saying, "I am talking about children of God and Christianity and coming together with others in the family of God to do together what each of us should be doing on an individual basis, the goal being something that Paul wrote to the Ephesians concerning."  I then typed out Ephesians 4:11-16.

In reply to this, it was easy to get the impression that you lob Christianity in the same category as religion and your disdain for it.  Concerning Ephesians 4:11-16, while you said you agree with a couple of things, it was not hard to sense the undercurrents of negativism.  So Diaste, while it was easy to get the impression that I would not be getting anywhere with you on the thing of giving a local church a chance, I was yet hopeful that maybe what I had to say would be helpful to someone.  And, maybe "even you."

I'm gonna go with my gut for a minute.  If I was going to call it Diaste, I would venture that you have been hurt much more than any of us realize, maybe even you yourself.  We both know---and anybody that has looked in on many of my threads will know---that I have been back and forth with you more than anyone else.  Some might even wonder why I bother.  All I can say is that it has remained on my heart.  While we may not see things the same on the timing of the rapture (relative to other events), I believe that we both know what the main thing is.  And, I believe you are a brother in Christ.  I hear you say too many things related to loyalty to Jesus for me to believe otherwise.  But, I also hear you say the other things.  I have had some much beloved brothers in Christ to be hurt (in churches) in such a way that I don't know if they will ever get over it.  I have just had tears to form in my eyes over one I am thinking about now.  I will ALWAYS care deeply for him, but I don't know if he will ever get back in church.  And, I KNOW he loves the Lord.

As my manner always seems to be, I could go on and on, but I've got a lot going on.  Diaste (and I'm still going with my gut), I'm thinking that it might do you a lot of good to just go on and "out with it" to the forum family concerning what you have been through.  And, let those of us who are other parts of the body care for you a little more than we have been able to so far (I Cor. 12:26).

Said and meant with Christian charity.

On 9/2/2021 at 4:31 AM, Diaste said:

On 9/2/2021 at 1:27 AM, not an echo said:

When I considered what to entitle this thread, I concerned myself over the use of terms that would be palatable, as I knew that the subject of even attending a local church leaves such a bad taste in the mouths of so many.  How much more when the subject concerns faithfulness to a local church.  There have been times when I have been left with a bitter taste as well.  I guess a help for me was understanding that it is understandable to have negative thoughts concerning what is wrong, as long as this is balanced by positive thoughts concerning what is right.  I used to give the nod to the things of the world, even when the bad outweighed the good.  So, when I determined to give God (and the things of God) the same chance I had given the world, I was okay with enduring some things.  Interestingly, with the things of the world, I had endured all that I could in a few years of time.  Now, as I look back, I have no regrets for whatever I may have had to endure for Christ's sake.  God has turned everything around for my good and I give Him the glory.  I am much the better for having been faithful to a local church.

Concerning the word religion, it is a word so seldom used by me that I can almost say it is not a part of my vocabulary.  It is like a dirty word for so many, as your use of it attests.  Of course, I believe we should all be fine with "pure religion" (James 1:27), and even you spoke of this in a positive way, saying "There is one religion that's a true religion."  And then you referenced what James says concerning "pure religion" (James 1:27).  Whatever it is that you might think that I would encourage you to be faithful to, I would encourage you to be faithful to the purest element of that that you can find.  Same with Christianity.  Yes, I also know that the concept many have of Christianity is wanting.  Concerning this, I have an illustration that I have used for many years to make an important point, but I have only ever used it in person---I have never written it out.  I'm minded to give it a try, however, as close as I can to how I would share it in a church service.  Here goes:

First of all, "What is true Christianity?"  For so many, it is about going to church regularly, bookending their days with a little word of prayer, reading in their Bibles some, and endeavoring to live a good moral life (compared to others, anyway).  On a scale of one to ten, what would one rate who is faithful to coming to church every Sunday morning and does the things I just mentioned?  Let me say that, if this is the extent of one's comprehension of what Christianity is all about, I would put this one at a one.  (Now, imagine me showing both my hands, with one pinky raised.)

(Continuing...)  What about that one who is regular to two services a week, like Sunday morning and Wednesday night, along with those same things I mentioned earlier??  Well, if this is the extent of one's comprehension of what Christianity is all about, I would put this one at a two.  (Now, imagine me showing two fingers raised.)

So, what about that one who is faithful to every weekly service and even five nights of a spring and/or fall revival, along with those same things I mentioned earlier???  Well again, if this is the extent of one's comprehension of what Christianity is all about, I would put him or her at a three.  (Now, imagine I have three fingers lifted.)  "WHAT?" someone may ask.  Am I saying that I would put someone who goes to church EVERY time the doors are opened and does those things that I mentioned earlier, AT JUST A THREE on a scale of one to ten?  Yeah, if that is the extent of their comprehension of what Christianity is all about.  I say this because some that go to church every time the doors are opened cause more harm to the cause of Christianity than they do good.  Sadly, some that you can bet on being at every church service are also the biggest mess in the church.  And, some that you may think are faithful behind the scenes are really pretty loose.

What in the world then do I think it takes to rate a ten on a scale of one to ten?  Stay with me now.  True Christianity is about walking with Christ on Monday (I raise a 4th finger), walking with Christ on Tuesday (I raise a 5th finger), walking with Christ on Wednesday, before the Wednesday night service (I raise a 6th finger), walking with Christ on Thursday (I raise a 7th finger), walking with Christ on Friday (I raise an 8th finger), walking with Christ on Saturday (I raise a 9th finger), and finally, walking with Christ after the benediction prayer on Sunday morning, in that interval of time between the morning and the night service (if there is a night service).  (Of course, at this time I will have all my fingers raised, and will use this opportunity to teach the importance of walking with Christ, or being a disciple.)  That's how my little illustration goes.  But, I think it effectively makes an important point.

I get the point. I walk with Christ under the tutelage of the Spirit, not the auspices of an organization. Leaving behind the compromise of many voices my heart and mind found silence and in that silence I could finally hear. 

But, "If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? (I Cor. 12:17).  Or, the seeing?  Or, the other parts?  Can someone who is a right fielder have good fellowship with a short stop?  Why sure.  They could talk baseball all day long!  But, are they not also part of a team?  What about the left fielder and the pitcher and the shortstop and the catcher and the rest?  You can bet the opposition is going to understand the importance of being organized.  Everybody is going to flub some, even the best.  A missed catch.  A bad play.  A bad day.  Everyone that is a winner has lost some.  Give me that one who has been in the trenches and has fought tooth and nail and has the scars to show for it.  Give me that one, who can say with Paul, "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith."  And the wounded and maimed?  Fellow soldiers, we may need to regard our wounded a little more than we may have.

My hope remains that this thread will be helpful to someone, even.......even.......all.

Edited September 4, 2021 by not an echo

[not an echo]

2 hours ago, Starise said:

Well Hello @not an echo 

Hey Starise.  My first thought when I look at your avatar is, I want you to be on my team!!!

Edited September 3, 2021 by not an echo
changed emoji to avatar!

[Willa]

There are few things that hurt more than being hurt by a family member, or a church family member, or a parent, spouse or a pastor or best friend.  Most of us have survived all of these at one time or another.  The bottom line is all of us are human and make huge mistakes.  That includes ourselves.

In becoming more like Jesus we must learn to love the unlovable and forgive the unforgivable.  We so easily see the faults of others and are so blind to our own.  Yet God somehow loves us in spite of all this and wants us to grow more like Him.  

Church is about fitting living stones together and training us to live close together and in harmony.  He wants us to work together as a unit and in appreciation of each other.  We need to see Jesus in each other even when self and selfishness is nearly all we see.  Perhaps that is what God is trying to show us that other people are seeing in use--some of the faults we can't see in ourselves.  It's not that we haven't grown more godly; its that we all still have a long way to go.  We still need to serve each other more unselfishly, encourage each other, give to each other, admonish, teach, pastor and evangelize. and most of all we need to serve and worship God more. We can't function as a church without Christ as the Head directing our service.  

1 Peter is what God is trying to do among us.  This is what being a church is all about.  It is becoming and functionioning as one in Christ!

1Pe 2:4  As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious,

1Pe 2:5  you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

1Pe 2:6  For it stands in Scripture: "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."

1Pe 2:7  So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, "The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,"

1Pe 2:8  and "A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense." They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

1Pe 2:9  But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

1Pe 2:10  Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

1Pe 2:11  Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul.

1Pe 2:12  Keep your conduct among the Gentiles honorable, so that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation.

1Pe 2:13  Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme,

1Pe 2:14  or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good.

1Pe 2:15  For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people.

1Pe 2:16  Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God.

1Pe 2:17  Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

1Pe 2:18  Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust.

1Pe 2:19  For this is a gracious thing, when, mindful of God, one endures sorrows while suffering unjustly.

1Pe 2:20  For what credit is it if, when you sin and are beaten for it, you endure? But if when you do good and suffer for it you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of God.

1Pe 2:21  For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps.

1Pe 2:22  He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth.

1Pe 2:23  When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly.

1Pe 2:24  He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

1Pe 2:25  For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

[Diaste]

12 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

You can strike the "even you" part, as I didn't mean it the way you have taken it.

Okay. I apologize. It was a gut reaction. 

12 hours ago, not an echo said:

This thread would not even be in existence if it were not that I cared enough to share something from my life experience that I thought might be an encouragement to you.  Do you remember my following closing post and your reply to it from our conversation in another thread?  Consider what I was seeing you say...

====================

Church? And be lied to? No thanks.

====================

 

Do you remember my reply to you in that thread?  It kind of puts all of this in context.  Here is part of what I said to you at that time...

====================

Hello Diaste,

It saddens me to hear you say this.  And, how to respond???  I don't want to just say nothing, because for me, that would be like just not caring.  And sometimes, a lot of time can be spent trying to give a helpful response, which just ends up buried in a thread to never be seen again.  So, I determined to start another thread, this one related to my experience(s) and some thoughts I have had on the importance of church attendance.  There is a big part of me, and I mean a big part, that can empathize with you and your above statement Diaste.  I can see myself there when I was 25, only my statement at that time would have been more along the line of "Church?  And be hurt again?  No thanks."  Over the decades, I've seen a lot that wasn't right in churches.  But, at 25, I realized in a big way that there was also a lot that wasn't right with a lot of other things in this world.  And, at 25, I had seen enough of it that I guess God felt it was a good time to get my attention with the inspiration to give Him the same chance that I have given the world.  I've been doing that now for 38 years, and part of giving God the same chance that I had given the world was in giving the things of God that same chance too.  I soon discovered that I had been given to making allowances for a lot of other things that were hurting me a lot worse than church attendance ever had (or would).  Now, as I look back, I can see how that God has used the local church to help me far more than anything else that this world has to offer that I was ever caught up in...  

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I can't really say that I am sorry for the "even you" part, for again, I did not mean it the way you took it.  At the close of my opening post for this thread, I stated, "I hope that in some way this is a help to someone."  The next post in this thread is yours and you take off on slamming religion.  Well, I understood that!  Only thing is, that is not what my opening post was about.  I see the "religion" you are talking about as being what the scribes and Pharisees were steeped in, which thing Jesus slammed!  So, I get that Diaste, but that has nothing to do with what I am trying to encourage you (and others) concerning.

 

12 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

 

I'm gonna go with my gut for a minute.If I was going to call it Diaste, I would venture that you have been hurt much more than any of us realize, maybe even you yourself.  We both know---and anybody that has looked in on many of my threads will know---that I have been back and forth with you more than anyone else.  Some might even wonder why I bother.  All I can say is that it has remained on my heart.  While we may not see things the same on the timing of the rapture (relative to other events), I believe that we both know what the main thing is.  And, I believe you are a brother in Christ.  I hear you say too many things related to loyalty to Jesus for me to believe otherwise.  But, I also hear you say the other things.  I have had some much beloved brothers in Christ to be hurt (in churches) in such a way that I don't know if they will ever get over it.  I have just had tears to form in my eyes over one I am thinking about now.  I will ALWAYS care deeply for him, but I don't know if he will ever get back in church.  And, I KNOW he loves the Lord.

As my manner always seems to be, I could go on and on, but I've got a lot going on.  Diaste (and I'm still going with my gut), I'm thinking that it might do you a lot of good to just go on and "out with it" to the forum family concerning what you have been through.  And, let those of us who are other parts of the body care for you a little more than we have been able to so far (I Cor. 12:26).

So did you see how I was treated by some? Others here with the same experience are treated the same way. We love the Lord, we love our brothers and face to face were are treated like lesser beings. That comes out in this forum and it took all of three posts. So you want me to go back to that? I get what your saying. Don't think I don't understand, I do and my hope is in that being a reality.

Know why we are treated as such? We have unapproved gifts and hold undesirable office. Necessary body parts that are shunned. It's a pretty common story.

And did you see the solution? Go to brick and mortar. My word...

 Being betrayed by an enemy is the glory of God. Being betrayed by those you love is eternally damaging. Why should I put myself back in that position? I don't have the answer and I deal with this everyday. You know who will never betray me? Jesus Christ; my God, my Lord and my true friend.

I get that you truly care. I do not doubt that ever. You're sincere and consistent in this befitting a proper pastor and it comes out in your posts. 

 

12 hours ago, not an echo said:

In my second post of this thread, I tried to clarify this by saying, "I am talking about children of God and Christianity and coming together with others in the family of God to do together what each of us should be doing on an individual basis, the goal being something that Paul wrote to the Ephesians concerning."  I then typed out Ephesians 4:11-16.

In reply to this, it was easy to get the impression that you lob Christianity in the same category as religion and your disdain for it.  Concerning Ephesians 4:11-16, while you said you agree with a couple of things, it was not hard to sense the undercurrents of negativism.  So Diaste, while it was easy to get the impression that I would not be getting anywhere with you on the thing of giving a local church a chance, I was yet hopeful that maybe what I had to say would be helpful to someone.  And, maybe "even you."

It's not negative. I don't think I'm explaining my thoughts too well, or something.

I know that's the way it should work as Paul said in Eph 4. I know that it does work that way, in part. The problem is it's all the smooth parts that have prominence with none of the guidance the Lord and the Holy Spirit have also provided as necessary components of any family. If all the offices of the church are not present and in operation how does the family operate cohesively and within the bounds of safety and strength? I'm not denying the truth here, I'm saying the fullness of what the Lord has given for our good is not present and it is not a good thing.

 

 

12 hours ago, not an echo said:

Said and meant with Christian charity.

But, "If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? (I Cor. 12:17).  Or, the seeing?  Or, the other parts?  Can someone who is a right fielder have good fellowship with a short stop?  Why sure.  They could talk baseball all day long!  But, are they not also part of a team?  What about the left fielder and the pitcher and the shortstop and the catcher and the rest?  You can bet the opposition is going to understand the importance of being organized.  Everybody is going to flub some, even the best.  A missed catch.  A bad play.  A bad day.  Everyone that is a winner has lost some.  Give me that one who has been in the trenches and has fought tooth and nail and has the scars to show for it.  Give me that one, who can say with Paul, "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith."  And the wounded and maimed?  Fellow soldiers, we may need to regard our wounded a little more than we may have.

Yeah, exactly. But the fulness of what Paul teaches here is not embraced. And it's much less about the perfection of an individual and all about filling out the roster and every position on the team. The Church embraces the glamor positions and tends to ignore the positions that do the dirty work. 

"We have an ace pitcher, we don't really need the left fielder." is the prevailing condition. 

If only the office of apostle and prophet were not regarded as the left fielders.

 

12 hours ago, not an echo said:

My hope remains that this thread will be helpful to someone, even.......even.......all.

In all sincerity, peace and grace be with you always in Jesus name.