An Importance of Faithfulness to a Local Church

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, Kelly2363 said:

 

A meeting place is place to meet - but @not an echo, the author of this OP has said in another place that the qualification for meeting is two or three - he then asserts a greater number and then an even greater number. But just one other than yourself is the local church in that place. Very soon the Lord will add others and then we will have to work out how we are to govern one another when government means to exercise ones calling and ministry faithfully. The building is just bricks and mortar - it is not Christ - it is brethren assembling together even when assembly means just two brethren. 

Yes. I agree. But it rings a bit hollow when the intent of the OP is in the title and the body of the text points toward membership in a local church organization. This moves away from the truth.

If Jesus had intended organized religion He would have said so. In fact Jesus condemned organized religion(a truth that will get you booted from a congregation so never say it out loud).

It almost as if some think the work of Jesus is only sanctioned within four walls. I'm not saying good isn't done inside four walls, it certainly is, but that isn't the only approved works.

 

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, Alive said:

From my POV---it isn't a 'finally' thing at all in this thread.

We all know what the scriptures teach us about His presence in His Body generally and when two or more are gathered.

Yes. That's what you see and it is the truth. Sadly it's application is purely theoretical. So many times I have heard I should join a church. I'm already the church! The church gathers, we don't don't gather in a church. 

16 hours ago, Alive said:

What this OP is focusing is how we all need fellowship and that fellowship needs each of us.

"An Importance of Faithfulness to a Local Church" is the title. I'm already the church, as are you. The last thing I am interested in is being faithful to an organization. Now we can dispute the meaning of the title of the OP but the call here is to be in an organization. 

16 hours ago, Alive said:

The 'Body' functions as various members gather and this can be in a very practical manner, that both enrichens each member and Glorifies the Head. If I may, the key to a healthy 'gathering' whether in the woods or cathedral is a collective beholding of the 'Head'.

Yeah. So...this forum should count as fellowship. Lots of churches gathered here. Both the true church and denominations are represented across this forum. And since the key is collectively beholding the Head of the Church the call to fellowship is observed and upheld.

16 hours ago, Alive said:

Life 'flows' from the Head to the members via the members. It is a marvelous thing to experience.

Yes. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Jesus Christ.

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, Ray12614 said:

Well, I suppose I should have said "I disagree with you", but, I hit the Oyvey button because I saw in you a picture of me in my early Christian life. That may have been somewhat calloused, and I did not have the time to reply to you properly. I hope you forgive me for that, but, I saw in your post a picture of my past that I did not like and quickly moved on.

I know the feeling. 

18 hours ago, Ray12614 said:

So, I will reply properly:

1. All I know about the you, is what I read here in your response to the poster. As such I can only pick up on attitudes through writing which can easily be wrong.

2. I can identify with your response, because I used to agree fully with what you said, and my experience later in my walk with Jesus has corrected me about 'how' to relate to local church bodies and church leadership as an whole.

My past experiences with organizational churches (not to be confused with alive NT churches), I decided that I didn't need them, because of what I observed as doctrinal/personal failures of the leadership. That observation was real, and I did need to leave them. What I did not do was attempt to find another church that had proper doctrine, but, elected to stay home, and at one point join a little group that was convinced (like myself) that I had truth of the Bible, and did not need anybody else. I (we) became highly critical of churches, and, eventually each other, because we all did not always agree, and I had to 'prove my points' about how I was right and everybody else was wrong. I had ZERO tolerance for others, and the love of Jesus definitely did NOT shine out of me. I was right doctrinally (for the most part), but WRONG in how I related to other brothers and sisters who did not agree with me. After all, isn't my faith about truth? Don't I have an obligation to PROVE the truth to those ignorant Christians who were not as informed, and as spiritual as me? My attitude certainly was stinky at best.

This is an excellent point and I was lead here by a person close to me. I was weak and I paid the price and am only now at what has been revealed to me as the end of the time of wandering. 

18 hours ago, Ray12614 said:

Again, I am speaking about my past self, and not you. Only you can decide if any of this applies to you.

Over the last 40 years of my walk with Jesus, studying scriptures, life events, etc. I discovered that I was saved into a Kingdom that is relationship based. Part of the relationship, is having healthy relationships with other brother and sisters in Christ. Eventually I found my way into an alive NT body of believers who love Jesus and each other. When problems arise, we talk it through and fix it, instead of pouting a spoiled children who don't get their own way.  I highly value the fellowship of these people, and when I disagree with them, I choose to love them instead. On minor points of doctrine I don't have to always be shown as 'right'. I am secure in Christ.

It is relationship based. This one:

"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me;" as if to say love for Jesus is protos. My love for Him and His word is paramount and supersedes all others. So then Jesus is the standard in all things including doctrine. When that doctrine flies in the face of one of the 10-40k denominations, as it often does, I have to choose Christ. Some of it may seem minor but it's important to place Christ's doctrine in the preeminent spot.  

 

18 hours ago, Ray12614 said:

So, instead of dismissing you as an picture of my past, I encourage you to do a heart check-up, and find an local NT church that has some people in it who you can pray with, share with, encourage, exhort, and basically love and build up as NT scripture commands us to do.

I often think the heart check never ends. I mean...can a guy get a break?

18 hours ago, Ray12614 said:

Since I took time to reply, I hope you will consider what I said above, and focus on any points that may apply to you, and discard those that do not. Wishing you the best . . . . 

Grace and Peace to you . . .  Ray . . . 

 

Considered in openness to receive truth. 

Blessings to you.

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, Kelly2363 said:

The OP title does not say that we are to have faith in the local church - it says to be faithful to a local church - and means to serve other believers in the churches. 

This is a good point. I wonder if the outworking of that service can be concisely defined as a set of approved actions. 

But again, I am the church. You are the church. We are the church.

I heard a story from the Catholic church;

The head nun found the priest and said, "Father, they are chewing gum in the sanctuary!"

"Sister! The sanctuaries are chewing the gum!"

Amusing and accurate.

[Starise]

There was this saying I always thought was amusing about the music business. It went something like this:

"The music business is full of drugs, crooks and goons........................and then there's the bad news."

Similarly I think there are many comparisons we can make about church. Sometimes it just isn't pretty. I have been known to compare churches to large squabbling families because well..........similarities are evident. We go around calling each other brothers and sisters. Happens here all the time mua mua mua. The inter family fighting that happens between siblings also seems to occur in churches sometimes. There are full grown babies wearing suits and eating solid food.

Add to this the fact that there are also lost folks attending churches here and there, especially the churches that minimize responsibility, maximize family entertainment and group events over the word of God. You get the fish according to the bait you use. You use worldly bait guess what? We get places like the Apostle Jeremiah community center YMCA Christian assembly. Not a real place but hopefully you catch my drift. 

Many fellowships shoot their wounded.  I have seen pastors voted out in secret meetings for extremely trivial reasons with no real proof ( That's a bible thumping Baptist church for you there)Yes all of those guys are SO holy. I helped the poor man move out to an emergency place very quickly because he had to be out fast.

I have seen churches reduce a pastor's salary when they wanted to force him to quit using budget limitations as an excuse to do it.

I have been brought to task because I dated a girl in another church or another youth group and decided to attend her church because you know, she was there?

When I have felt led to leave an assembly PEACEFULLY a small percentage of persons who I thought were life long friends decided to break off all communications with me. People we ate out with and had over to our home disowned us.

I have seen people fight in business meetings over the most trivial things, people making power plays trying to use these meetings for some kind of twisted leverage. "Church Families" who run the show and won't allow anyone else to become involved or they think that since they have been there 30 years they get extra dibbs on everything and anything. A new comer quickly learns just the way things "operate here". We want your money but we don't want you or your advice unless you want to mop floors here.

................and then there's the bad news.

Wake up you bunch of spoilt kiddos. If the shoes fits..............

 

[Alive]

....and if seekers are reading this stuff? Dirty laundry?

How much is enough? is the Lord pleased with this?

Just saying.

[Starise]

46 minutes ago, Alive said:

....and if seekers are reading this stuff? Dirty laundry?

How much is enough? is the Lord pleased with this?

Just saying.

Is the Lord pleased with it? No He couldn't possibly be pleased with the status quo in many churches.  Does that mean we don't bring out everything about the subject discussed? Maybe we should balance this with what we think is GOOD about church?

I can think of many good things. I also see many complaints as valid. Lots of wounded birds out there who need to see balance. To cover it up isn't entirely fair either is it?

15 minutes ago, Josheb said:

 

The two greatest criticisms against Christianity and the their use as excuses for not attending congregational worship and other forms of fellowship are, "Christians are all hypocrites," and "Christians are legalistic". The problem is this is true. Christians can be and often are hypocritical and legalistic. We've all fallen prey in some way to these pitfalls and it does not take long for any of us to experience this in others. These are the poles, the banes of our existence. 

However, the larger truth is the problem is shared by all humanity! ALL humans are hypocritical. ALL humans are legalistic. The differences between all humanity and Christians is Christians ae trying to be different. We're engaged in a life-long endeavor to overcome sin by the blood of Christ so a visitor should not be surprised to find hypocrisy and legalism. In point of fact because of the effort to make changes in these areas the problem might even be more apparent; the effort reveals the standard and the standard reveals the need. Or as Paul once wrote the Law was given to show me my sin. 

The problem therefore is the use of the problem as an excuse to avoid faith and faithfulness.

One of the most obvious ways this manifests itself (obvious to all except those falling prey to it) is the notion I can have faith and be faithful apart from the ekklesia. The church, he ekklesia is the body of Christ so faith in Christ and faithfulness to Christ necessarily entails a passion and duty (both!) to his body, of which he is the head, the cornerstone, the foundation, and the vine running through it all. There are reasons God used these imageries in His word.

 

Anyone who has ever opened their Bible and read Chronicles, or the prophets, or the letter to the Corinthians KNOWS God's people are a mess. We were a mess before being chosen, we remain a mess having been chosen, and it won't be until we are resurrected that we will be incorruptible so there's no excuse for 1) finding the mess unexpected or 2) using it as an excuse fr a lack of commitment to a body. 

Once all of this is learned the task then becomes finding a body of believers who practice the redemptive process, the endeavor to be different than we were/are. Where is the congregation that applies Ephesians 4? Were is the congregation that practices confession, repentance, restitution, forgiveness, and reconciliation as a matter of individual and corporate character and not just out of obedience to the list? Where is the congregation that lives out accountability in a rehabilitative manner and not just punitively? The answers to these questions beget increased faith and faithfulness, which in turn begets more character. 

James 1:2-8
"Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials,  knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.  And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.  But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him.  But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind.  For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord,  being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways."

Romans 5:1-5
"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,  through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.  And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;  and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;  and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us."

Joy and exultation in tribulation? Scr3w that. You people are a mess. Count me out. You're all a bunch of legalistic hypocrites.

Yes, we are. You should feel right at home among us if you're interested in change. 

Aaaaaarrrggh!

Iron sharpening iron entails friction, but it also entails friction with others. Some of the greatest tests we face are those of an interpersonal nature. 

2 Peter 1:2-11
"Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;  seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.  For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.  Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge,  and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,  and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.  For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.  For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.  Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;  for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you." 

 

Put 

 

the

 

bit

 

in 

 

your

 

mouth 

 

and 

 

run

 

into

 

the 

 

fray! 

 

Light has come into the world but men (and women) love darkness because their deeds are evil and they will not come into the light for fear their deeds will be seen for what they are. However, those who walk in the light can see that what s/he does has been wrought in God (Jn. 3:19-21 JBP). God works through His Son and His Son's body so no one can say, "I am waiting on God," and not consider the Church.

 

Josh I believe you balanced the subject out a bit here. Of course it's much more FUN to look at others faults in the church than our own.  I follow the Lord to church, not people even though I value the people there, well ok most of them to be totally honest.Others I'm doing my best to warm up to.

Probably one of the single largest questions I have is why would God choose any of us? Continue to use any of us? 

On the positive- I feel a kinship, a brotherhood with God's people. You won't find that anywhere else. Like a family we might occasionally disagree but we are brothers joined through the blood. That woman who pitched a tantrum in business meeting over a little of nothing, I would have her back in an emergency....and hope she could close her mouth long enough to escape safely.

[Riverwalker]

Guess what boys and girls, there ain't no such thing as a perfect church

A Church is no better than the sum of its members.  Some are very good and some are very bad and many are somewhere in the middle

But it is what has been given to us to help us live this Christian life. Fellowship, Teaching, Corporate Praise and Worship, and caring and sharing of each other's burden

This is IT. It doesn't get any better than this, and if you spend your time tearing it down, do NOT complain about the rubble at your feet

Look to be a POSTIVE member of your church, adding to it, making it better

The pastor can't do this.  He can lead the sheep from here to there, but if the herd is going to work against him.....be whiney complaining and negative.....well  mutton makes a good meal 

 

Edited September 1, 2021 by Riverwalker

[Kelly2363]

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

I wonder if the outworking of that service can be concisely defined as a set of approved actions. 

 

I don't believe that our service to one another as defined by our faith into Christ can be measured in exacting terms - yet even the practical gifts in the churches must necessarily be moderated in some ways. Some brethren could NOT do with being helped in ways that others WOULD welcome with open arms. I suppose that sometimes practical service can even cause offence. 

When it comes to spiritual gifts then the exact nature of the gift may not be possible to define precisely - even more so than practical gifts. How many ways are there to clean the toilets or serve at the table? But speech can be almost anything. And so my belief is that it is both our own heart and the governance of the church that makes service possible. If either one is out of balance then the outcome will be a likely chaos or else a somewhat stern church. 

[Riverwalker]

1 minute ago, Kelly2363 said:

 

I don't believe that our service to one another as defined by our faith into Christ can be measured in exacting terms - yet even the practical gifts in the churches must necessarily be moderated in some ways. Some brethren could NOT do with being helped in ways that others WOULD welcome with open arms. I suppose that sometimes practical service can even cause offence. 

When it comes to spiritual gifts then the exact nature of the gift may not be possible to define precisely - even more so than practical gifts. How many ways are there to clean the toilets or serve at the table? But speech can be almost anything. And so my belief is that it is both our own heart and the governance of the church that makes service possible. If either one is out of balance then the outcome will be a likely chaos or else a somewhat stern church. 

Amen as Paul told us

1 Corinthians 14:39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues. 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.