God did not teach us these things

[Kelly2363]

1 minute ago, Alive said:

Frankly---nothing. What does this have to do with us who have been called out of darkness into His marvelous Light.

I'm not getting your point. Can you elucidate briefly?

I know that you are wilfully obstructing what I am saying @Alive and I am not afraid to say so plainly. Let others make their own mind up about what I have said and let it stand accordingly. To suggest that I am speaking about anything other than what believers can do when they fail to embrace the Cross of Christ unto death - And when I reference a malady that is on the churches and express an understanding that the occult is the very fabric of the fallen body - its mind in the flesh and its ambition in its will and the same being expressed across generations by both believers and cited in their lives is frankly only resisted for one reason. It is because you cannot bear with the claim that the churches in many places are utterly corrupt and have overthrown any semblance of godliness other than to walk in a parade.  

Do you think that Isaac Newton was an unbeliever - or that many occultists in the 19th century did not flood the land out of the churches? They most assuradely did and it was a scientific rationale predicated on opening up the very fabric of the cosmos that gave them cover. We imagine that we can speculate on things that far greater minds have fallen foul of - is pure vanity - no matter than we are born again. Perhaps you desire a few pleasant sayings or a few lecture notes or a few Scriptural citations. I think not. Shalom @Alive.

[Alive]

5 minutes ago, Kelly2363 said:

I know that you are wilfully obstructing what I am saying @Alive and I am not afraid to say so plainly. Let others make their own mind up about what I have said and let it stand accordingly. To suggest that I am speaking about anything other than what believers can do when they fail to embrace the Cross of Christ unto death - And when I reference a malady that is on the churches and express an understanding that the occult is the very fabric of the fallen body - its mind in the flesh and its ambition in its will and the same being expressed across generations by both believers and cited in their lives is frankly only resisted for one reason. It is because you cannot bear with the claim that the churches in many places are utterly corrupt and have overthrown any semblance of godliness other than to walk in a parade.  

Do you think that Isaac Newton was an unbeliever - or that many occultists in the 19th century did not flood the land out of the churches? They most assuradely did and it was a scientific rationale predicated on opening up the very fabric of the cosmos that gave them cover. We imagine that we can speculate on things that far greater minds have fallen foul of - is pure vanity - no matter than we are born again. Perhaps you desire a few pleasant sayings or a few lecture notes or a few Scriptural citations. I think not. Shalom @Alive.

This is simply not true.

Let's keep on topic and not get into accusations aimed at members.

TOS

[Kelly2363]

1 minute ago, Alive said:

This is simply not true.

Let's keep on topic and not get into accusations aimed at members.

TOS

 

Then we are done are we not @Alive?

[Alive]

3 minutes ago, Kelly2363 said:

 

Then we are done are we not @Alive?

I hope not. I am looking for a response to my last request. I am sincere. I can't resolve what it is you are driving at. You are my brother--we can't be 'done'.

Let me ask you this. Is the thrust of this--in part--what Nee referred to as the latent power of the soul? Man--I haven't thought about that for a long time. I have seen that in operation and it is to be vociferously avoided!

[David1701]

20 hours ago, Marathoner said:

Let us review the Psalm contextually in light of your assertion, brother. I will add your assertion above in parentheses. 

God stands in the congregation of the mighty;
He judges among the gods (human judges).
How long will you judge unjustly,
And show partiality to the wicked? Selah
Defend the poor and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and needy.
Deliver the poor and needy;
Free them from the hand of the wicked.

They do not know, nor do they understand;
They walk about in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are unstable.

I said, “You are gods (human judges),
And all of you are children of the Most High.
But you shall die like men,
And fall like one of the princes.”

Arise, O God, judge the earth;
For You shall inherit all nations.
(Psalm 82 NKJV)

Are we to understand that men shall therefore die like men? Fascinating. 

The Hebrew word in question is "elohim" and not "shofet," my friend. The latter translates to  "judge" and also "ruler," not "god." Does your knowledge of biblical Hebrew surpass Dr. Heiser's? That is the inference here, but we can see by context alone that your assertion is nothing more than your personal opinion. Thanks for sharing it with us. 

In Ps. 82, it is human judges who are to defend the poor and fatherless.  It is human judges who are to do justice to the afflicted and needy, delivering them from the hand of the wicked.

Judges are, figuratively speaking, like "gods" to the people; but, these unjust judges would die like men (i.e. those who are not in such exalted positions of power and responsibility).  Psalms are full of such figurative language.

John 10:32-36 (WEB)

33 The Jews answered him, “We don’t stone you for a good work, but for blasphemy: because you, being a man, make yourself God.” 
34 Jesus answered them, “Isn’t it written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods?’  
35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture can’t be broken), 
36 do you say of him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God?’ 

Here, Jesus quotes a part of Ps. 82:6 and applies it to ... men (not angels).  Jesus' perfect wisdom trumps Michael Heiser, or any other opinion.

[David1701]

17 hours ago, Waggles said:

Well are you unhappy that the KJV translators were influenced by Michael Heiser?

Wow!  Michael Heiser must be OLD!

Quote

 

Psalm 82:1  A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.  [H430]
2  How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. 
3  Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. 
4  Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. 
5  They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. 
6  I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. 
7  But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. 
8  Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.   [KJV]

H430 - 'ĕlôhı̂ym  el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
Total KJV occurrences: 2601

 

I've highlighted for you, the meanings that you don't want to admit.  Thank you for quoting them, at least.

[enoob57]

3 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Yes. All scripture and the Fathers used that verse to promote Enoch and other writings that are frowned upon today. Anything Yeshua read and the apostles read is good enough for me - even if the Augustinian 'modern' church does not like it.

We should get with the program and throw out the old myths that were designed to subdue believers using scare tactics to prevent them from reading much that was called scripture by Yeshua and his early followers.

Check church history and see. Do not rely on the seminaries and false pre-mil and Dispensational twists to inform. Go to the original texts and stay there without modifying them to suit later false narratives.

I find it quite disconcerting that one who does not agree with this site’s statement of faith and remains here to oppose it leaves little doubt in all who read this drivel of yours as real substance to read...

Statement of Faith

We believe in God, the almighty creator of heaven and earth.

We believe in the triunity of God. We believe that God is eternally One, and also eternally the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit — the three being distinct, but not separate. Each Person of the Godhead coexists from everlasting to everlasting.

We believe in the Messiah, Jesus, God’s only begotten son, God come in the flesh. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate. He was crucified, died and buried. On the third day, He rose again. Soon afterward He ascended into heaven. Now He is seated at the right hand of the Father and He will return to judge both the living and the dead and reign for evermore.

We believe all mankind are sinful and are therefore subject to God’s wrath and condemnation.

We believe that everyone is in need of God’s salvation. Mankind is absolutely unable to fulfill the heavy demands of God’s righteousness, holiness and glory. Therefore, God, in sending His Only Begotten Son, has accomplished redemption for us through the shedding of Jesus’ blood. Because of His Son’s death, God has forgiven us of our sins, reconciled us to Himself, and justified us by making Him our righteousness.

We believe that salvation is a gift received by faith alone, in Messiah alone, and is expressed in the individual’s recognition and repentance of sin, and the acceptance of the risen Messiah as Saviour, Lord and God.

We believe in the supreme Lordship of Jesus Christ, before whom every knee in heaven and on earth will bow. And that there is no other name under Heaven by which we can approach the holy throne of God. Jesus Christ is the one and only mediator between God and man.

We believe that immediately upon death, the soul of the believer is absent from the body, and present with the Lord.

We believe in the ongoing work of sanctification by the Holy Spirit after redemption for the purpose of producing life changing fruit — love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and self-control.

We believe that the 66 books of the Canon, from Genesis to Revelation are the exhaustive, inerrant and inspired word of God.

 

 

[David1701]

15 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Read about the Divine Council and understand it well. It is a worldview quite replete with NT ideas and quotes. A Deut 32 worldview is quite scriptural.

If one really wants to understand this properly then read or watch 'The Unseen Realm". It is well explained and the ideas of the council as called 'gods' (little g) is quite scriptural. Elohim is a disembodied being. God is an Elohim, but no other 'elohim' is God. In the Tanakh, judges are NEVER called elohim. It is an old silly Augustinian thing to equate the many gods (small g) of the bible and confuse believers. It is typical of pulpit speak that is poorly informed. To strip the supernatural from the scriptures is a sad thing.

To equate Deut. 32 with a "Divine Council" is an error.  The only Divine Council is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Regarding Ps. 82, Jesus makes it clear that the correct understanding is that the "gods", in that context, are men, not spirits/angels, or any such thing.

John 10:32-36 (KJV)

32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

There is no question of stripping the supernatural from the Scriptures; however, we need proper exegesis.

P.S.  I meant to quote the WEB translation, but accidentally copied/pasted the KJV, so I've amended the version abbreviation.

Edited September 6, 2021 by David1701

[LearningToLetGo]

22 minutes ago, David1701 said:

John 10:32-36 (WEB)

32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Thank you for explicitly drawing this connection between John 10:34-36 and Psalm 82:6-7.

[Kelly2363]

1 minute ago, Alive said:

I hope not. I am looking for a response to my last request. I am sincere. I can't resolve what it is you are driving at. You are my brother--we can't be 'done'.

Let me ask you this. Is the thrust of this--in part--what Nee referred to as the latent power of the soul? Man--I haven't thought about that for a long time. I have seen that in operation and it is to be vociferously avoided!

 

What Nee wrote about and defined in the term Latent Power of the Soul is similar in as much as Nee essentially wrote about a power (God given ability) that was inherent in Adam and evident in Adam in the garden - but became trapped in the flesh and evidenced in the weakened mind after the fall into sin and death. But Nee believed that this Latent Power was becoming visible outside of traditional occult circles or else aesthetic practises through para psychology from the mid 18th century. 

When he wrote in the early 20th century that would have been a reasonable preposition. What Nee could not have known is how clinical psychology and neurological science would overtake that para psychological concern of Nee - produced by people like Franz Mesmer in the late 18th century- and would become a systemic effect of clinical psychology and psychoanalytical theories. 

I have thought about that distinction I have made for more than three decades when I first attended psychology lectures in the 1980's. Nee really understood the occult world in as much as he understood the aesthetic route to the Latent Power of the Soul. 

I knew that unclean spirits were always trying to create the effect of having a noviciate member in an order hold to the belief that these super natural powers were given in exchange for giving ones soul. I gradually pinned Nee's teachings down and looked across the raft of people he cited until I could fathom why both his view and my own view were in fact so closely related that both could be best answered by the only remedy that God has given us to our own flesh. The Cross unto death.