God did not teach us these things

[enoob57]

1 hour ago, appy said:

No one is denying that angels are mentioned in scripture. But that, there is NO mention in scripture specifically of an angel named “Phanuel”, or that he “presides over repentance, and hope”. This is only found in the book of Enoch.

I commend your learning! 
Phanuel (angel) - Wikipedia

[Kelly2363]

4 hours ago, Waggles said:

You have responded to my post without reading it and have immediately reacted with your bias and loathing of Michael Heiser. 

Neither the Book of Enoch nor I make any claim that angels are responsible for salvation. 

 

I did read your post and you were correcting another member over their claim regarding an angel taken from the book of Enoch in which they cited blasphemy to the claims of the book and you cited another meaning that I showed was in truth just the same blasphemy. Thats it.

As to the claim that I hate Heiser - I only heard of him just over two weeks ago and that was on this forum. I heard the claims I watched his videos - read his blog articles both narrative and academic and say he is butchering the doctrines of truth to uphold an overstated and misinformed claim. PERIOD.

Your claim stems from the same belief - its utter pinky poos. mate.

Have a great Ozzy day.

[Waggles]

47 minutes ago, Kelly2363 said:

Have a great Ozzy day.

Thankyou I will. 

[Your closest friendnt]

17 hours ago, appy said:

No one is denying that angels are mentioned in scripture. But that, there is NO mention in scripture specifically of an angel named “Phanuel”, or that he “presides over repentance, and hope”. This is only found in the book of Enoch.

Those teachings are not from Jesus and the teachings from his disciples and a reasonable man cannot denied that because when those teachings were circulated around Jesus Christ and his disciples and Paul were not born yet or they were born long time after those teachings existed or when they began to be popular with the manuscripts in this book. 

What is the reason to bring that up? 

There many reasons and one of the questions is, that how can we tell if these kind of teachings or similar ones  were around before Abraham, and that time Abraham was familiar with them. 

How can we answer this question one way or the other. 

That time the people understood that Angels had a certain ministry...a specific specialty into what was given to them. 

The people understood that God had his Angels and he equipped them and sent them on a mission to do his will.

But also they understood that the same applied for the other powers as the powers working among the Idolaters as in the Egyptian religion and in all the Paganist religions.

Including the religion of those who did not denied God but they understood something about Angel's, and they reached out to those powers for help, and so they thought that the powers they were into were from God, because they were not harming them, not all of them were for harm as some of them were for their beneficial to them. 

That what important to them.

And it is easy for them to be persuaded that those powers were genuine Angels from God, and that is because they claim that we are not Idolaters and we do not have statutes of Idols, (what a nice set-up), and we do not have Temples for each Angel and we do not denied God only that God has stay away from us. 

Which it is truth and maybe in part because we do not know everything about God.

We do not know how God was working in people those times which we call that "God was silenced" during those periods.

And this may or not may be because we do not read the diary of God but only what has been given to us..

And we do not know how God was working during that time and the reasons why, even thought he made something known to us which is that when the time was due ...always something Knew appeared, or was manifested or was made known.

So what about Abraham during that time.

What about some of the people who were not Idolaters, and understood about God and the Angels in General, because they knew that they were powers working on earth but not all those powers were from God.

And because they were not Idolaters they show or they could not know or tell the difference whether those powers were from God or not. 

What about Abraham?  

Edited September 10, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[Dennis1209]

On 9/6/2021 at 9:34 PM, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

It's obvious that Jesus, Jude and Peter read Enoch and quoted from it.  According to the Dead Sea Scrolls, fallen angels procreated the first Nephilim leading the way to genetic tampering.  We know a couple of additional things from Genesis 6:1-4.

• (Genesis 6:4)  The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.  [ESV]

• So at least some of the Nephilim survived Noah's Flood, or maybe it was just their children.

• These angels were in a position of authority.

• So are these the angels imprisoned for forsaking their position of authority, leaving their dwelling?

So certain angels were imprisoned but the fallen angel called Satan was not and was allowed to freely move about per Job and Jesus.  That is, until Jesus performed the first of many exorcisms, casting out demons.  Jesus the Messiah was now in authority.

Other than the Devil, Satan himself; have you ever found any reference to demon's, unclean spirits, or evil spirits prior to Noah's flood? 

[Dennis1209]

On 9/8/2021 at 12:32 AM, appy said:

One thing we know for sure is that Jesus and the Apostles NEVER endorsed extra biblical sources as scripture.

People in today's world put high esteem on the Apocrypha books, and I'm sure there were some in the early church that put high esteem on extra biblical sources for which Jude used those sources on his adversaries to indict the very pride in them. We can compare Paul and Jude's conversations like that of Christian apologists of today citing an atheistic author in a debate against an atheist.

Bingo! Have we reached some common ground in this thread? The literate Jews of the second Temple period read and understood other things? The Apocrypha, I Enoch, Flavis Josephus, Herodotus', etc.; are useful for history, and what the people of the time did, thought and believed? 

    And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones 
    To execute judgement upon all, 
    And to destroy all the ungodly: 
    And to convict all flesh 
    Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, 
    And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.

R. H. Charles and W. O. E. Oesterley, The Book of Enoch (London: Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge, 1917), Enoch 1:9.

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jud 14–15.

This is about as close to verbatim as it gets. It's commonly held I Enoch was written in the inner testament period, probably about 200 B.C. The Essenes, of which many scholars suspect John the Baptist was a member, must have held I Enoch in high regard and valuable, as portions of it were found in the Dead Sea scrolls. 

Updated translations of the Bible, and many of the italics in our Bibles have been changed and modified, due to the discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls.

It's interesting to note, the Essene's disappeared when Jesus ascended to Heaven. It's thought the Essenes were absorbed into the church. 

[David1701]

14 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Bingo! Have we reached some common ground in this thread? The literate Jews of the second Temple period read and understood other things? The Apocrypha, I Enoch, Flavis Josephus, Herodotus', etc.; are useful for history, and what the people of the time did, thought and believed? 

    And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones 
    To execute judgement upon all, 
    And to destroy all the ungodly: 
    And to convict all flesh 
    Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, 
    And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.

R. H. Charles and W. O. E. Oesterley, The Book of Enoch (London: Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge, 1917), Enoch 1:9.

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jud 14–15.

This is about as close to verbatim as it gets. It's commonly held I Enoch was written in the inner testament period, probably about 200 B.C. The Essenes, of which many scholars suspect John the Baptist was a member, must have held I Enoch in high regard and valuable, as portions of it were found in the Dead Sea scrolls. 

Updated translations of the Bible, and many of the italics in our Bibles have been changed and modified, due to the discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls.

It's interesting to note, the Essene's disappeared when Jesus ascended to Heaven. It's thought the Essenes were absorbed into the church. 

The quote in Jude is from Enoch, not the so-called "Book of Enoch", which, no doubt, copied some of Enoch's writings (to give the book credence), mixed with other things.

Many scholars believe that, although the first part of the "Book of Enoch" was probably written between 80 and 160 B.C., a large chunk of it was probably written AFTER the New Testament.

[Waggles]

45 minutes ago, David1701 said:

The quote in Jude is from Enoch, not the so-called "Book of Enoch",

So which writings of Enoch were cited??

[appy]

The Bible nowhere mentions angels named Raphael or Phanuel nor does the bible talk about them. The only angels mentioned in the bible by name are Gabriel, and Michael.

When it comes to spiritual matters, the bible itself is the go to authority. Not some literature outside of the bible. The OT apocrypha books and the book of Enoch are not canon for multiple of reasons. They were not considered canonical by the Jews of Jesus’s own time. No NT author cites even a single book from the Apocrypha as being God's word. None of the NT writers directly quote from them. An allusion is not the same as a direct quote.

Jesus said the Scriptures were true and could not be broken. However the Apocrypha writings was not Scripture to Him. Since neither the Jews, Jesus, or His apostles considered these writings as part of the Old Testament neither should we.

 

[David1701]

1 hour ago, Waggles said:

So which writings of Enoch were cited??

Nothing that was named.