Last Day Resurrection? How does that work?

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, missmuffet said:

There is a final resurrection, of the unbelieving dead off all ages. Jesus Christ will raise them from the dead John 5:25-29. This will happen after the 1000 year millennium. This resurrection was described by Daniel. Daniel 12:2.

Shalom, @missmuffet.

You're right about a final Resurrection that occurs after the Millennium, but this will mostly be for those who are the unjustified.

We need to understand that there is VERY LITTLE DIFFERENCE between how a person was justified by God in the times before the Messiah's First Advent and now, which is after the death, the burial and the resurrection of the Messiah. The ONLY difference is that the Messiah hadn't come, yet, and therefore, His sacrifice was still in the future.

In all ages, people were justified by God the same way, (1) by God's grace, (2) through faith, and (3) by blood. In the time period recounted for us in the Tanakh (the OT), they used animal sacrifices, which they had to watch and perhaps shed a tear or two for the innocence of the animal. In the times after the Messiah's sacrificial death, it was HIS death that satisfied for all time the need for a sacrifice.

Hebrews 9:11-14 (KJV)

11 But Christ (the Messiah) being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Paul explained this, but David and Micah already KNEW this! David said,

Psalm 32:1-2 (KJV)

1 {A Psalm of David, Maschil.}

Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

And, Micah said,

Micah 6:7-8 (KJV)

7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Paul said,

Romans 3:19-28 (KJV)

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without (outside of) the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without (outside of) the deeds of the law.

So, there's absolutely NO DIFFERENCE in how an "OT saint" was justified by God and how a "NT saint" is justified by God!

So, when the Messiah Yeshua` returns, the Resurrection that is associated with His return is NOT "strictly for the NT believers" (as some believe), and the "OT saints" will be resurrected SAME AS the "NT saints!" And, well they should! Even more so when one considers that the reign of the Messiah over Jerusalem and the house of Israel is IN FULFILLMENT of the prophecies that anticipated the coming of the Messiah as the Ruling and the Reigning King!

If you already knew this, that's fine; but there are those who did NOT know this (or at least, never considered it), who needed to be told.

God bless you, sister!

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Uriah said:

?!

Shalom, Uriah.

I don't know what is perplexing you in what I said. Let me go over it again in detail:

Let's start with the quotation of the entire passage, remembering that verses and chapters were added to the Scriptures, and sometimes, those chapter and verse numbers get in the way. The original text did not contain these reference markers that were added in the 16th Century A.D, about 1560 A.D. (I'll keep the verse numbers but run the paragraphs together and run the chapters together, as well.)

Revelation 19:1-22:21 (KJV)

1 And after these things I heard a great (loud) voice of much people in heaven (in the sky), saying,

"Alleluia (Greek transliteration of Hebrew: HalleluYAH = Praise-to-YHWH); Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: 2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand!"

3 And again they said,

"Alleluia! (HalleluYAH!) And her smoke rose up for ever and ever!"

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying,

"Amen (Hebrew: Ameen = 'Truth'); Alleluia! (HalleluYAH!)"

5 And a voice came out of the throne (Yeshua`s voice), saying,

"Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great."

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying,

"Alleluia: (HalleluYAH!) for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. 7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready."

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints (Greek: hagioon = holy-ones).

9 And he saith unto me,

"Write, 'Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.'"

And he saith unto me,

"These are the true sayings of God."

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me,

"See thou do it not!: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

11 And I saw heaven (the sky) opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called "Faithful" and "True," and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood (Isaiah 63:1-6): and his name is called "The Word of God" (John 1:1-3). 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

17 And I saw an angel (messenger) standing in the (morning) sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven (in mid-sky),

"Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great."

 

This is all part of the aftermath of the battle at Har-Megiddown ("Armageddon" in Greek).

 

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken (prisoner), and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone (sulfur). 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven (Greek: katabainonta ek tou ouranou = "coming-down/descending out of-the sky"), having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent (the original snake), which is the Devil (Greek: Diabolos = "[the] Slanderer"), and Satan (Greek: ho Satanas = Greek transliteration of Hebrew: haSatan = "the Enemy"), and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that [the thousand years] he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls ("air-breathing beings"; thus, the First Resurrection has happened) of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) 

 

The "rest of the dead" are primarily those who will be the "resurrection of the unjust" or the "resurrection of the damnation/condemnation."

 

This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

.....

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed (surrounded) the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city (old Jerusalem): and fire came down from God out of heaven (out of the sky), and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God (to "stand" is hard to do without being a body with FEET!); and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead (those who had been dead) were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

1 And I saw a new heaven (Greek: ouranon kainon = "a new sky") and a new earth (Greek: kai geen kaineen = "and a new earth/ground"): for the first heaven (Greek: ho gar prootos ouranos = "for the first sky") and the first earth were passed away (Greek: kai hee prootee gee apeelthan = "and the first earth/ground had-gone-away"); and there was no more sea (Greek: kai hee thalassa ouk estin eti = "and the sea not is any-longer"). 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (Greek: katabainousan ek tou ouranou apo tou Theou = "coming-down out of-the sky away-from the God"), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great (loud) voice out of heaven (Greek: ek tou thronou = "out of-the THRONE", Yeshua`s voice) saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle (Greek: hee skeenee = "the tent") of God is with men, and he will dwell (He shall tent) with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

5 And he that sat upon the throne (God the Father) said,

"Behold, I make all things new."

And he said unto me,

"Write: for these words are true and faithful."

6 And he said unto me,

"It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 

8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying,

"Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife!"

10 And he carried me away in the spirit (on the wind) to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones.
The first foundation was jasper;
the second, sapphire;
the third, a chalcedony;
the fourth, an emerald; 
20 The fifth, sardonyx;
the sixth, sardius;                                                                                                                                              the seventh, chrysolite;
the eighth, beryl;
the ninth, a topaz;
the tenth, a chrysoprasus;
the eleventh, a jacinth;
the twelfth, an amethyst. 

21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

6 And he said unto me,

"These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done."

7 "Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book."

8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9 Then saith he unto me,

"See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God."

10 And he saith unto me,

"Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. 11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

12 "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

16 "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

17 "And the Spirit and the bride say, 'Come!' And let him that heareth say, 'Come!' And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

18 "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, 'If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book': 19 And 'if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.'"

20 He which testifieth these things saith,

"Surely I come quickly. Amen."

Even so, come, Lord Jesus. 21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

 

John 5:19-29 (KJV)

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life (at the BEGINNING of the Millennium); and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation (at the END of the Millennium a thousand years later, at the Great White Throne Judgment and the sentencing to the Lake of Fire)."

Really? I find SEVERAL places in Scripture that speak of it!

Aw, sure it is. Any time a person who was dead and is raised to life is called a "resurrection." 

I agree. Yeshua` is the Firstfruits of the Resurrection, and only He has been Resurrected and Transformed, so far.

Yeshua` specifically called these "the resurrection of life," in John 5:29.

Well, if you're talking about those raised to life during Yeshua`s first Advent, then, yes, I can agree with you.

To my statement (truncated),

 

you said,

Well, eventually that is true; however, I'm talking about the NATIONAL judgment that happens almost IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Messiah returns. Again, NO ONE at the sheep and the goats war tribunal are thrown into the Fire!

The messengers (aggeloi or "angels") are not given any specific orders, and all the King says is ...

Matthew 25:41 (KJV)

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,

"Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels...."

And, after His order, we read,

Matthew 25:46 (KJV)

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The messengers do NOT throw them into the "everlasting fire" at this point in time. This is, after all, at the BEGINNING of the Millennium, for Yeshua` also said,

Matthew 25:31-34 (KJV)

31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory (brightness), and all the holy angels (messengers) with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"

The Kingdom is just getting started when the Son of man comes back and sits on His throne of brightness! The King says to the ones who treated His people rightly, "inherit the kingdom!" This does NOT occur at the end of the Millennium, but at its BEGINNING!

However, Revelation 20 clearly tells us that the Great White Throne Judgment and the time when the messengers ("angels") throw the unjust into the Lake of Fire occur at the END of the Millennium!

Revelation 20:7-15 (KJV)

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast (thrown) into the lake of fire.

 

First, "on His glorious throne" translated from the Greek phrase "epi thronou doxees autou," meaning "upon a-throne of-glory/fame/ brightness of-Him." "Doxees" does NOT mean "white!" In Revelation 20:11, the word translated "white" is the Greek word "leukon" from which we get our word "leukocyte" meaning a "white blood cell."

Second, as shown above, this sheep/goats separation doesn't occur at the END of the first 1,000 years of His reign, but at the BEGINNING of the Millennium!

Both of these passages are general mentions of both Resurrections, but again, we're told in Revelation 20 that they have a THOUSAND YEARS between the Resurrection of the Just and the Resurrection of the Unjust.

When dealing with prophecy, sometimes one is looking away at two peaks that appear to be side-by-side, only to find out later that there is a huge valley between them, in this case, consisting of a THOUSAND YEARS!

You think Yeshua` didn't know that Eleazar ("Lazarus") was not raised to newness of life and would have to die again?

Of course this is still in our future.

Nope. This is a common misunderstanding among postmillennials and amillennials, but it neglects the actual wording of the Greek tenses. Verses 11 through 15 are ALSO at the end of the Millennium, just as verses 7 through 10 are.

Nonsense. Revelation 6:14, which is part of the sixth seal, Revelation 6:12-17, is talking about the herald meteorites that strike the earth just prior to the other, larger meteorites which comprise the first five trumpet (siren) judgments. However, the whole sky is not made new until Revelation 21:1.

Is that any better?

[Uriah]

18 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Is that any better?

Hi Retro,

No, you only re-stated some things which don't make the case.

For example; when we look at Rev. 6:14- And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. You deny its meaning with no proof, saying, "the whole sky is not made new until Revelation 21:1."

Let's stick to what it actually says-"the heaven departed", not partially or anything of the sort. 

And it says, "every mountain and island were moved out of their places". These are massive geologic alterations on a planet wide scale! Whereas you say nothing about that, it is nothing less than the end of great tribulation and the new heaven and new Earth are now seen at the beginning of the 1,000 yr. Kingdom. 

Let's compare these then... Rev. 20:11- And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

We have the heaven and Earth fled away here AND in Rev 6. Both references contain someone sitting on a throne at the same time the things happen! This is powerful proof of the fact that the new heaven and Earth are NOT AFTER the 1,000 yrs. This also proves that the correct reading of Rev. to must be taken as verses 7- 10 being parenthetical. 

In verses 12 & 13 people are before the throne being judged according to their works. People are cast into the fire.

And in Matt 25 it says there is a judgment in front of a throne-"When the Son of man shall come..." Here also, people are judged by their works and people are cast into the fire!

On the same subject Jesus spoke of people told to "enter in" into the joy of thy Lord". And what do we see after Rev 20? A description of where people will enter in- the "place prepared'..."in my Father's house". 

I think your scenario forces people to enter AFTER 1,000 yrs, must they wait that long for God to, " wipe away all tears from their eyes"? I don't believe so.  

[DeighAnn]

21 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I agree. Yeshua` is the Firstfruits of the Resurrection, and only He has been Resurrected and Transformed, so far.

I must disagree because of these verses



Genesis 5:23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:

Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

2 Kings 2:9 And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.

2 Kings 2:10 And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so.

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

2 Kings 2:12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.

 

1 Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


THEY were transformed.  

 

Ezekiel 37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

Ezekiel 37:10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

Ezekiel 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

Ezekiel 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

Ezekiel 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

Ezekiel 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.


 

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves AFTER HIS RESURRECTION, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

 

1 Corinthians 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

1 Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1 Corinthians 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits OF THEM THAT SLEPT. 



 

WHATEVER the belief on what took place with Moses still, 

Matthew 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Matthew 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Matthew 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Matthew 17:6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.

Matthew 17:7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.

Matthew 17:8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

Matthew 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Matthew 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?

Matthew 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

Matthew 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

Matthew 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.


D

[DeighAnn]

 ....and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;

and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week ....

And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels

(And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth).  (And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death...)

And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

...and his deadly wound was healed:

....and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

and all the world wondered after the beast.

(Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

(And when they shall have finished their testimony, THE BEAST THAT ASCENDETH OUR TO THE BOTTOMLESS PIT, (THAT OLD SERPENT, THE DEVIL, THE DRAGON, SATAN, THE DESTROYER, THE DESOLATOR, ABADDON, APOLLYON, DEATH, THE PRINCE OF THE POWER OF THE AIR, THE PRINCE OF THIS WORLD, ETC.), shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves).
 

And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


And then shall that Wicked be revealed,
whom the Lord
SHALL CONSUME WITH THE SPIRIT OF HIS MOUTH AND DESTROY WITH THE BRIGHTNESS OF HIS COMING.  

And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of HIM that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


 

 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.



 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.



 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

 

Edited September 22, 2021 by DeighAnn
and in the midst of the week moved down

[Uriah]

5 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I must disagree because of these verses

Hello DeighAnn,

You posted many verses and made only one statement to explain your point....

5 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

THEY were transformed. 

Where does it actually say that? The scripture DOES say that Jesus was "transfigured", but there is no reasonable way to derive that Moses and Elijah, for example were transformed. 

As I have been pointing out, with God there is the factor of timelessness. Moses and Elijah were/are not in heaven nor are anyone else but Jesus. Moses was not seen for forty days when he ascended Mt. Sinai and entered the pillar of fire. I say THAT is when he was taken to the mount of transfiguration as well as was Elijah. Moses returned whence he came, Elijah is moving through time differently than we. To these two men, their travel seemed like seconds passed, in my view. The same applies to Enoch, whom I take to be one of the two witnesses along with Elijah.

Also, to say that Elijah was transformed, as in the way you imply, he would have to be either resurrected or had experience of the rapture and was "changed in an instant." This cannot be because as Jesus said, "Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection." Yet in the book of Revelation, he is one of the two witnesses who will be slain.

Has he already come? Was John the Baptist Elijah? Does the bible teach re-incarnation? John 1:21- And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. 

Matt 17:13- Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

So they had an understanding about the statements of what Jesus said regarding Elijah.

And I think it goes like this;

"But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John...And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God...

And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

 

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, Uriah said:

Where does it actually say that? The scripture DOES say that Jesus was "transfigured", but there is no reasonable way to derive that Moses and Elijah, for example were transformed. 

Here is where we are 'actually' told what is possible and what is not.  Next we take all the wisdom and knowledge God imparts to us and figure it out.  Certainly the way to follow is NOT by going in the opposite direction as THAT would be unreasonable.  I don't need every single action to be spelled out because we were given the gift of the Holy Spirit and all we need do is ask.  Because it is THE SPIRIT of what is written that should be taking precedence and not the 'definitions of the words' used to convey that message.    But some can't see that and there is no one but GOD who can help them there.  
 

1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


THIS IS GOOD AND CLEAR ENOUGH FOR ME,  I am sorry it isn't for you.  All I can suggest is to pray for understanding.  

Matthew 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

Matthew 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Matthew 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Matthew 17:6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.

Matthew 17:7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, Uriah said:

As I have been pointing out, with God there is the factor of timelessness. Moses and Elijah were/are not in heaven nor are anyone else but Jesus.

Hi Uriah, 

Do you have LOTS AND LOTS OF scripture FOR THAT BELIEF?  If so, let's do a soapbox debate and go one on one ,scripture for scripture, and see if we could clear this whole thing up once and for all.  I am willing to read and listen to the words of God ALWAYS.  

Here is a problem I think, 


Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
 

Revelation 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

Revelation 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

I AM THY FELLOWSERVANT

SO THE ANGEL IS A FELLOWSERVANT

AND THAT ANGEL WHO IS A FELLOWSERVANT IS ALSO OF THY BRETHREN

BRETHREN OF THE PROPHETS

TELL ME, were the Prophets FLESH AND BLOOD MEN?  ARE our BRETHREN flesh and blood men?  DOES this ANGEL IN HEAVEN SPEAKING WITH JOHN CLAIM TO BE BRETHREN TO THOSE WHO WERE/are FLESH AND BLOOD?  


How is what you say TRUTH and all this to be TRUTH also?

[Retrobyter]

 

15 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I must disagree because of these verses:


Genesis 5:23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:

Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Shalom, DeighAnn.

I understand why you think you must disagree; HOWEVER, you must understand that your disagreement is based upon THEORY!

When one looks at these verses from Genesis 5 that you quote, what was really said? We have three facts:

1. Chanokh ("Enoch") walked with God.
2. Chanokh was not.
3. God took Chanokh.

That's all we were told, and we were told no more. WHERE God took him is NOT TOLD TO THE READER! We don't know his fate! The verb here is the same verb that was used to say that "God TOOK the man and put him into the garden." We are not told WHERE God put Chanokh after taking him!

15 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

2 Kings 2:9 And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.

2 Kings 2:10 And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so.

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

2 Kings 2:12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.

Here again, one doesn't know what happened to Eeliyaahuw ("Elijah") after Elishaa` ("Elisha") was separated from him. The "chariot (millstone) of fire and the horses (swallows; swifts) of fire" were merely there to separate the two. Eeliyaahuw did NOT get in the "chariot of fire!" Instead, Eeliyaahuw went up in a whirlwind (Hebrew: bac`aaraah = "in-a-storm; in-a-tornado") into the sky (Hebrew: hashaamaayim = "of the skies." We are NOT TOLD what happened to him from there!

15 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

1 Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Again, I have no problem with these verses AS WRITTEN! In verses 48 and 49, the word "heavenly" is "epouranios" and its plural "epouranioi." Normally adjectives, by adding a definite article, these words are changed to descriptive nouns, describing persons.

1 Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy (Greek: choikos [singular] = "soil-like-one"), such are they also that are earthy (Greek: choikoi [plural] = "soil-like-ones"): and as is the heavenly (Greek: ouranios [singular] = "one-from-above-the-sky"), such are they also that are heavenly (Greek: ouranioi [plural] = "ones-from-above-the-sky").

1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne (aorist indicative active = normal past tense) the image of the earthy (Greek: teen eikona tou choikou = "the image of-the soil-like-one"), we shall also bear (future indicative active) the image of the heavenly (Greek: teen eikona tou epouraniou = "the image of-the one-from-above-the-sky").

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

So, like we have borne the image (ikon) of the soil-like-one (Adam) in the past, we shall bear the image (ikon) of the One-from-above-the-sky (Yeshua`) IN THE FUTURE! Then, we too shall be ones-from-above-the-sky IN THE FUTURE!

15 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Ezekiel 37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

Ezekiel 37:10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

Ezekiel 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

Ezekiel 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

Ezekiel 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

Ezekiel 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

These are verses from a PROPHECY OF THE FUTURE that describes the RESURRECTION of the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL!

15 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Yes, but Yeshua` won't WIELD this power - this authority - UNTIL HE RETURNS!

15 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves AFTER HIS RESURRECTION, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Yes, but these who were resurrected were NOT resurrected to new life! They had to die again, and so, their future resurrection will be to New Life to live forever in God's Kingdom.

15 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

1 Corinthians 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

1 Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1 Corinthians 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits OF THEM THAT SLEPT. 

All this is true, but we still HAVE "them that slept!" They are STILL IN THEIR GRAVES AND TOMBS! They have NOT "perished" because there's still HOPE IN THE RESURRECTION!

Some Jews have hope in the coming Messiah ("Christ") even today, but Paul's argument was, that if we ONLY have hope in the Messiah while we are living, then we are the most miserable of all men!

15 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

WHATEVER the belief on what took place with Moses still, 

Matthew 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Matthew 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Matthew 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Matthew 17:6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.

Matthew 17:7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.

Matthew 17:8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

Matthew 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Matthew 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?

Matthew 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

Matthew 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

Matthew 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.


D

Verse 9 is clear; the three disciples experienced a VISION! They didn't actually see the real Mosheh and Eeliyahuw ("Moses and Elijah") standing there in front of them! What they saw was a VISION OF THE FUTURE, as any prophet of God would have seen!

Yeshua` telegraphed this event in chapter 16:

Matthew 16:28 (KJV)

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

And, the Transfiguration was the fulfillment of this prediction. This doesn't mean that the Son of man had already come in His Kingdom; it means that they SAW the Son of man coming in His Kingdom when they saw Him transfigured and talking with Mosheh and Eeliyahuw!

[Uriah]

15 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Here is where

 

15 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Right, so this how it is for (what Paul is writing about) people who are raptured or resurrected. These things have not happened yet and certainly not to Moses and Elijah. Moses' body is still in the grave. Elijah hasn't died. 

It is those who are in the grave that will hear the voice of Jesus and come out. So they are NOT in heaven now. their spirits are being, "passed from death unto life" according to Jesus.

15 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Do you have LOTS AND LOTS OF scripture FOR THAT BELIEF?

I have the ultimate scriptures for that belief.

Ps 90:4- For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

2 Peter 3:8- But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

My guess is that you believe them as well. These things show us directly that God is not limited by the constraints of time. Some call it a constant state of NOW.

John 5:24- verily, verily I say unto you, he that heareth my word and believeth on Him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and cometh not into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.

metabainō. 1) to pass over from one place to another, to remove, depart

The context of these statements pertain to quickening the dead, people coming out of the graves. 

This can now be seen clearly, knowing the obvious; their death and their coming forth are separated by TIME! So they are transported through time.

 

 

Edited September 23, 2021 by Uriah
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