Joel's Prophecies and the Day of the LORD

[Marilyn C]

On 1/14/2022 at 5:02 AM, not an echo said:

In light of the whole body of Scripture Marilyn, your answers are resulting in my dismissing of your positions more and more.  Not forgetting what I have already pointed out relating to this, I think of what Jesus said to His disciples in His Olivet Discourse, as recorded in Luke 21:

³⁴ And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

³⁵ For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

³⁶ Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy TO ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

I think afresh of what Paul said to his readers in I Thessalonians 5:

³ For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall NOT ESCAPE.

According to Scripture, the way I see it all shaping up, this world is ripening up for judgment more and more, and one day judgment is going to come.  Moreover, that day could be today.  As it was in the days of Noah and the days of Lot, there is an escape---just preceding God's judgment---for God's children.  When God determines it is time, He is going to have His Church gathered out, and His judgment will commence---like back to back.

Thinking of this, when I was young, I worked in a large factory for a month that made seat frames for cars and trucks.  I only worked there for a month because I quickly found that assembly line work was not for me.   Whereas I was in the welding department, I sometimes watched what was going on in the press department.  Something quite conspicuous was the wrist bands that the press operators had around each of their wrists---attached by little chains (or cables) to a device on either side of them.  These wrist bands pulled their hands back before the press could stamp the part.  It was like a simultaneous action.  The operator would load the press, pull his hands back, push on the foot switch, and the press would stamp the part---with tons of pressure.  Now, if something happened and the operator didn't get his hands pulled back in time, there was this safety feature---his wrist bands would jerk his hands back!  It was like, load, hands pulled back, BAM, load, hands pulled back, BAM.  Time after time after time, all day long, the operators would be going through their motions.  And, thankful for that safety feature, I might add.  Now, one of these days, something analogous to this is going to happen.  God is going to have His children gathered out of this world, and BAM.  Again, like in the days of Noah and Lot.  Like it could be today.

Everything you have said about God not taking drivers from cars, pilots from planes, and surgeons from their surgeries misses the whole point Marilyn.  One of these days, in God's plan, it is going to be time.  When the time is right, this world is going to be fully ripe for judgment.  Let me suggest that some driverless cars, pilotless planes, or surgeons suddenly MIA are going to be the least of the world's problems.  You say, "That would make those deaths a consequence of God`s immediate action for the believer."  Yeah, God's immediate action for the believer---just like them little wrist straps---just a "twinkling of an eye" before the commencing of His judgment.

It is the `THEY` (unbelievers) that will not escape, NOT the believers. We `see` the Day approaching and it will NOT overtake us, as God`s word says. 

[Marilyn C]

19 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Marilyn,

Concerning the opening paragraph of your response, you say, "Now did you know that the `rapture` view is now in decline and Dominionism is now replacing it."  I'm drawing a blank as to what this has to do with our discussions.  I may just be tired.

Concerning your next paragraph ("Most older denominations..."), I'm thinking, "Now Ms. Marilyn, are you trying to get me more off topic than what I already am?"    Annnyway, because you asked what you did , I will share just a little, but then I'm thinking that we need to get geared up to continue on the thread path we've been on.

First of all, I most assuredly believe, with unwavering faith, on the authority of Scripture, that while the fowls are still digesting their fresh flesh buffet (try saying those 3 words quickly 3 times in a row!) from the battle of Armageddon (Rev. 19:17-21), the next thing John saw is what will happen next.  And that is this, from Revelation 20...

¹ And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

² And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

³ And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up (I really like that part ), and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

⁴ And I saw thrones, and they (the antecedent to this "they" is found in 19:14 & 19) sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: AND I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands (these are those of 14:1-5 & 15:2-4); and they (all of God's children) lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

⁵ But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection (all of God's children).

⁶ Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

During this time, God's covenant promises to the Israelite nation will be fulfilled and Christians will join Christ in the government of this present earth and experience great prosperity.  One of the most beloved prophecies of that time is from Isaiah 11.  Consider,

(NOTE:  I was minded to highlight some things in this passage, but as I thought on it, I wanted to highlight most everything!  So, it came on my heart to just let Christ, by His Holy Spirit, emphasize what He would like for you...

¹ And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

² And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon Him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

³ And shall make Him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and He shall not judge after the sight of His eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of His ears:

⁴ But with righteousness shall He judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and He shall smite the earth: with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips shall He slay the wicked.

⁵ And righteousness shall be the girdle of His loins, and faithfulness the girdle of His reins.

⁶ The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

⁷ And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

⁸ And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

⁹ They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Now, concerning "the new earth" that you mentioned in the same paragraph that I am presently commenting on, this is not spoken of until after this present earth is destroyed (Rev. 20:11/II Pet. 3:10-13), just after the fulfilling of Christ's Millennial Reign and the Last Judgment.  As Revelation 21 opens, we see that John is seeing this and the New Jerusalem and other grand and glorious things in glory.  Consider just the opening five verses... 

¹ And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth WERE PASSED AWAY; and there was no more sea.

² And I John saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of Heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

³ And I heard a great voice out of Heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God.

⁴ And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

⁵ And He that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW. And He said unto me, WRITE: FOR THESE WORDS ARE TRUE AND FAITHFUL.

I sure am glad that God told John to write about this!  Just trying to imagine the fullness of what John saw gets me in a state of rapture!  I can't help thinking of the song "Jerusalem" by The Hoppers.  I'm going to have to stop and listen to it now!  (pause)  Whew!!!  I can't get through that song without tears of joy!  As soon as I push Submit Reply, I'm gonna have to listen to it again!

Oh, and not to forget the rest of your post, beginning with "So what about new believers and those not believing..."  I'll keep what you have said in mind.  I hope you will keep what I have said in mind as well...

We both agree with the main things - Rapture, tribulation, Lord`s return to deliver Israel and bring vengeance on the rebellious, the Millennium, then new heavens and new earth. Mainly just some details we differ on.

[not an echo]

On 1/12/2022 at 5:42 PM, Marilyn C said:

On 1/11/2022 at 10:49 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning your opening two sentences, more correctly, Jesus said this to the pillars of His Church concerning what things were going to be from their day until well beyond His ascension---some 2000 years beyond---as we now know in retrospect.  In Mark's account, chapter 13, Jesus told them, 

³² But OF that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

³³ Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

³⁴ For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

³⁵ WATCH YE THEREFORE: for ye know not when the Master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

³⁶ Lest coming suddenly He find you sleeping.

³⁷ And what I say UNTO YOU

I say UNTO ALL, Watch.

This also fits what John said in I John 2:

²⁸ And now, little children, abide in Him; that, when He shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.

In I Thessalonians 5, Paul told them this...

¹ But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

² For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Then he encourages them with these words, but notice what I have emphasized,

⁴ But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

⁵ Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

⁶ THEREFORE LET US NOT SLEEP, as do others; BUT LET US WATCH AND BE SOBER.

⁷ For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

⁸ BUT LET US, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Marilyn, you can't just keep pointing out the part in verse four.  Paul enjoins them as he does in verses six and seven so that the benefit of verse four will be the reality of their life experience.  In Ephesians 5 he says similarly,

⁸ For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: WALK AS CHILDREN OF LIGHT:

Why do you think Paul was telling them this?  So that what they had in Christ would be the reality of their life experience.  He wasn't instructing them in something they didn't need instruction in.  They needed this instruction, just like we do.

Now, don't get me wrong.  Just because some of God's children may "sleep" or may not "watch" this does not mean that they will be left behind.  No, God's children are the valuables!  God's children are what "the thief" (Matt. 24:23) is coming to get!  We are the goods, if you will, even though we may not have been as good (probably not) as we should have been.  We can be thankful though, that we will be the valuables that will be taken, rather than those from which the valuables have been taken, if we are in the number of those that "are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord" (I Thess. 4:15).  When a thief comes for what he takes, he also comes as a thief from whom he takes.  Same as Jesus when He comes for His Church.  But also, this same day, on the world of the ungodly, "the Day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night" (I Thess. 5:2), in that it will commence---suddenly and unexpectedly.  Two different things, similar, but different, one taking place (Jesus stealing His Church away), one commencing (the Day of the Lord)---but all on the same day.  And, it could happen, and begin---respectively---today...

Hi NAE,

Then we do remember that when Jesus ascended to the Father, that His Father made Him Head of the Church, His Body. The Lord then sent His Holy Spirit to build and mature the Body. Then the Lord told His believers that they were all sons of light and NOT in darkness that the Day of the Lord would overtake them as a thief. (1 Thess. 5: 1 - 5)

Now it certainly would overtake those in darkness as a thief, as the Lord had already told the disciples that, for Israel was in partial darkness then. Even Jesus Himself when He was on earth did not know the time of His coming for Israel. (Mark 13: 32) However, now that Jesus is at the Father`s right hand and in the Godhead He certainly does know what is planned and tells His believers in His Body.

Again the Lord tells those in the Body that they will `see` the Day of the Lord approaching and to come together all the more and encourage and warn one another. (Heb. 10: 25)

Again `watch and be sober.` (1 Thess. 5: 6)

Hello Marilyn,

By your logic, you essentially nullify what Jesus spoke in His Olivet Discourse that relates to this.  I am reminded of what Satan spoke to Eve in the Garden of Eden:  "Yea, hath God said...?" (Gen. 3:1).  We know that Eve then acted in accord with her deceived logic (Gen. 3:6) and, and...

Whatever you are believing concerning "(I Thess. 5:1 - 5)" and "(Mark 13: 32)"  it has to fit with the whole of the prophetic puzzle and the rest of the Word of God.  By your logic, you are supposing that now that Jesus is ascended, He has determined to reveal to us (while we are still on earth) something that the Father did not reveal to Him (while He was still on earth).  Interestingly, whatever the extent of our present knowledge, Paul said, "For now we see through a glass, darkly..." (I Cor. 13:12).

You have me wondering:  If Christ has now determined to reveal to us "that day and that hour" (Mk. 13:32), by what logic do you think that He would neglect to reveal to us what day and hour it is not?  In other words, why would He neglect to tell you that the rapture wasn't going to be around this time last year, as you were thinking it was going to be?  Further, according to what you have been putting forth of late, you're expecting Him to let us all know anytime now what the day and hour is going to be this time around (i.e., this year).  If it is going to be, that's great by me.  But, if it proves not to be, why would He neglect to give you settled assurance of this, so that you wouldn't be putting things forth that would cause the world to dismiss the merits of Christianity more than it already does?

I think of what Jesus said in the verse preceding Mark 13:32.  Remember?  Consider...

³¹ Heaven and earth shall pass away: BUT MY WORDS SHALL NOT PASS AWAY.

IMHO, your understanding and resulting position flies in the face of this.  It seems that your only concept of us not being in darkness is that God must be going to let us all know the day (and even the hour if you are going to be consistent).  Moreover, He must be going to have us assemble in "little groups" because otherwise, there will be all these driverless cars and pilotless planes.  But, Jesus said the following in Matthew 24...

⁴⁰ Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

⁴¹ Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

This doesn't sound like your little groups.  This sounds more like, "Then shall two be in the [car];  the one shall be taken, and the other left.  Two [pilots shall be flying the jet airliner];  the one shall be taken, and the other left."  Many, many like examples can be given.  Marilyn, the tenor of Scripture is that, even if there are "little groups" of people gathered, some are going to be taken and some are going to be left!

There is a much better way to understand what is said about us not being in darkness, a way that easily honors the harmony of Scripture.  Moreover, we should always seek to come to this kind of understanding.  For example, imagine if we were in a hostile land and received intelligence of a pending war.  Imagine that part of the intelligence was to enlighten us concerning the plan to rescue us before any attack.  The nature of things could easily be such that no day or hour can be given for the rescue, but for everyone to watch and be ready.  Highly dependent on the escalation, the rescue could take place soon, or it could be quite a while.  Whatever the case, the intelligence is plain---watch and be ready.  Now, would any of those who received the intelligence be in darkness?  No, for they have been informed.  They have been given light.  Yet, easy to envision is the slack of some in regard to this light, especially the longer that time passes.  When it comes time for the actual rescue, the level of watchfulness and readiness could range from high to moderate or even low.  But, all the rescued will have much to be thankful for.  Of course, it would be a different matter for the hostile element, which would be in darkness.

Similarly, God has left His children intelligence, or light concerning what lies ahead.  We have been given the inside scoop that the Thief of thieves is one day coming to steal us away.  Yet, all have not equally busied themselves with the matter of watching and being ready.  Notwithstanding, for all of His children the event of the rescue will be a blessed experience, for which all will be thankful.  Of course, as above, it will be a different matter for the hostile element.

Marilyn, one does not have to understand things as you are to "see the day approaching" (Heb. 10:25).  I "see the day approaching" with the understanding that I presently have.  And, it harmonizes with Scripture.  I have had a difficult time really appreciating your song, if you will.  For me, I am just hearing to many off-notes.  Perhaps I am tone deaf.  But, I really appreciate the tones of Scripture.

[Marilyn C]

NAE we are here to discuss scripture not give a tirade, putting down another person. When someone does that they think they can `win` an argument by accusations and putting down another.

Not edifying to others if they are reading.

Thus I will leave this thread.

[not an echo]

On 1/13/2022 at 4:36 PM, truth7t7 said:

On 1/13/2022 at 1:56 PM, not an echo said:

Hello truth7t7,

I guess you could suppose that I would disagree with you, but I can also understand.  My raising was steeped in the common "pre-trib" view, but as I grew older and began my personal study of God's Word, I found that I could not accept many of the interpretations that were being used to support it.  On my part, it did not matter to me which view was correct.  My concern was to understand and embrace what IS correct.  What I found as I began my journey for the truth is that I could not fully embrace any of the big four views as commonly/popularly put forth.  But, on my journey, I discovered what I do believe represents the truth, A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation.  There are many elements of my different interpretation that for me, have continued to remain very interesting and make for an understanding that is so much more in harmony with Scripture that no other view that I have encountered belongs in a category with it.  Here is the link to a master thread that I have developed on this forum concerning my different interpretation, merely put forth for your consideration (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).

My understanding is not something that I have ever been desirous to argue about.  It has, however, been something that is much on my heart to make known and to clarify.  Bottom line is this:  for all of us to be ready, come what may.

As to the statement of your second sentence, the diehard scholars that are in the camp that springs from all of this are reluctant to even look in the direction of my view, much less, be on board with it.  But, their view doesn't have anything for my view---at least, not that I have yet seen.

Thanks for the response Echo!

I looked at your teaching in the link, thanks for sharing

My study finds that scripture clearly teaches that the Church will be (Caught Up/Raptured) at the second coming of Jesus Christ that takes place at the 7th/Last Trump, this is the time of resurrection and final judgement of all (The End)

I will be more than happy to elaborate with scripture if requested?

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

Hello truth7t7,

Not sure if you noticed, but on my master thread, the two posts beyond my opening post are mine as well.  In those, I give links to all the other threads I have developed so far, which relate to my different interpretation, and I show one of my charts.  I just looked in on it and noticed that another of my charts is shown on page six (and beyond).  Further, I would invite you to look in on my website (https://www.sevensealedbook.com/).

Concerning your study, do you have a thread that gives a comprehensive overview of your understanding?  What I have done, you might say, is give a bird's-eye view, then a bug's-eye view of my understanding.  My bird's-eye view has been fully developed for years now.  My bug's-eye view will probably ever be a work in progress, as I cannot imagine myself ever exhausting all there is on this subject.

I would like to point out that for me, in my own search, I found that there were some things that I never saw until it became more apparent what things couldn't be.  In other words, it wasn't until I had more fully searched it all out that I was able to come to some of the conclusions that I have.  Then, there was a time when things really began to open up---things that I have not seen anyone else in print or in the web world bring out.  I hope that the fruits of my efforts make apparent the level of my search.

[not an echo]

On 1/14/2022 at 5:11 PM, Marilyn C said:

On 1/13/2022 at 12:32 PM, not an echo said:

In light of the whole body of Scripture Marilyn, your answers are resulting in my dismissing of your positions more and more.  Not forgetting what I have already pointed out relating to this, I think of what Jesus said to His disciples in His Olivet Discourse, as recorded in Luke 21:

³⁴ And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

³⁵ For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

³⁶ Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy TO ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

I think afresh of what Paul said to his readers in I Thessalonians 5:

³ For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall NOT ESCAPE.

According to Scripture, the way I see it all shaping up, this world is ripening up for judgment more and more, and one day judgment is going to come.  Moreover, that day could be today.  As it was in the days of Noah and the days of Lot, there is an escape---just preceding God's judgment---for God's children.  When God determines it is time, He is going to have His Church gathered out, and His judgment will commence---like back to back.

Thinking of this, when I was young, I worked in a large factory for a month that made seat frames for cars and trucks.  I only worked there for a month because I quickly found that assembly line work was not for me.   Whereas I was in the welding department, I sometimes watched what was going on in the press department.  Something quite conspicuous was the wrist bands that the press operators had around each of their wrists---attached by little chains (or cables) to a device on either side of them.  These wrist bands pulled their hands back before the press could stamp the part.  It was like a simultaneous action.  The operator would load the press, pull his hands back, push on the foot switch, and the press would stamp the part---with tons of pressure.  Now, if something happened and the operator didn't get his hands pulled back in time, there was this safety feature---his wrist bands would jerk his hands back!  It was like, load, hands pulled back, BAM, load, hands pulled back, BAM.  Time after time after time, all day long, the operators would be going through their motions.  And, thankful for that safety feature, I might add.  Now, one of these days, something analogous to this is going to happen.  God is going to have His children gathered out of this world, and BAM.  Again, like in the days of Noah and Lot.  Like it could be today.

Everything you have said about God not taking drivers from cars, pilots from planes, and surgeons from their surgeries misses the whole point Marilyn.  One of these days, in God's plan, it is going to be time.  When the time is right, this world is going to be fully ripe for judgment.  Let me suggest that some driverless cars, pilotless planes, or surgeons suddenly MIA are going to be the least of the world's problems.  You say, "That would make those deaths a consequence of God`s immediate action for the believer."  Yeah, God's immediate action for the believer---just like them little wrist straps---just a "twinkling of an eye" before the commencing of His judgment.

It is the `THEY` (unbelievers) that will not escape, NOT the believers. We `see` the Day approaching and it will NOT overtake us, as God`s word says. 

Hello Marilyn,

I'm not sure where you are coming from with your reply.  I fully agree with your statement, "It is the `THEY` (unbelievers) that will not escape, NOT the believers."  I have wondered if you were just more concisely reiterating what I said less concisely, or if you are misunderstanding me in some way.  I read my post through earlier, and then again just before now replying, and I am unable to find anything that might have given you the impression that I wasn't realizing this.  Now Ms. Marilyn, you wouldn't be trying to throw me a curve ball would you?

[not an echo]

16 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Marilyn,

By your logic, you essentially nullify what Jesus spoke in His Olivet Discourse that relates to this.  I am reminded of what Satan spoke to Eve in the Garden of Eden:  "Yea, hath God said...?" (Gen. 3:1).  We know that Eve then acted in accord with her deceived logic (Gen. 3:6) and, and...

Whatever you are believing concerning "(I Thess. 5:1 - 5)" and "(Mark 13: 32)"  it has to fit with the whole of the prophetic puzzle and the rest of the Word of God.  By your logic, you are supposing that now that Jesus is ascended, He has determined to reveal to us (while we are still on earth) something that the Father did not reveal to Him (while He was still on earth).  Interestingly, whatever the extent of our present knowledge, Paul said, "For now we see through a glass, darkly..." (I Cor. 13:12).

You have me wondering:  If Christ has now determined to reveal to us "that day and that hour" (Mk. 13:32), by what logic do you think that He would neglect to reveal to us what day and hour it is not?  In other words, why would He neglect to tell you that the rapture wasn't going to be around this time last year, as you were thinking it was going to be?  Further, according to what you have been putting forth of late, you're expecting Him to let us all know anytime now what the day and hour is going to be this time around (i.e., this year).  If it is going to be, that's great by me.  But, if it proves not to be, why would He neglect to give you settled assurance of this, so that you wouldn't be putting things forth that would cause the world to dismiss the merits of Christianity more than it already does?

I think of what Jesus said in the verse preceding Mark 13:32.  Remember?  Consider...

³¹ Heaven and earth shall pass away: BUT MY WORDS SHALL NOT PASS AWAY.

IMHO, your understanding and resulting position flies in the face of this.  It seems that your only concept of us not being in darkness is that God must be going to let us all know the day (and even the hour if you are going to be consistent).  Moreover, He must be going to have us assemble in "little groups" because otherwise, there will be all these driverless cars and pilotless planes.  But, Jesus said the following in Matthew 24...

⁴⁰ Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

⁴¹ Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

This doesn't sound like your little groups.  This sounds more like, "Then shall two be in the [car];  the one shall be taken, and the other left.  Two [pilots shall be flying the jet airliner];  the one shall be taken, and the other left."  Many, many like examples can be given.  Marilyn, the tenor of Scripture is that, even if there are "little groups" of people gathered, some are going to be taken and some are going to be left!

There is a much better way to understand what is said about us not being in darkness, a way that easily honors the harmony of Scripture.  Moreover, we should always seek to come to this kind of understanding.  For example, imagine if we were in a hostile land and received intelligence of a pending war.  Imagine that part of the intelligence was to enlighten us concerning the plan to rescue us before any attack.  The nature of things could easily be such that no day or hour can be given for the rescue, but for everyone to watch and be ready.  Highly dependent on the escalation, the rescue could take place soon, or it could be quite a while.  Whatever the case, the intelligence is plain---watch and be ready.  Now, would any of those who received the intelligence be in darkness?  No, for they have been informed.  They have been given light.  Yet, easy to envision is the slack of some in regard to this light, especially the longer that time passes.  When it comes time for the actual rescue, the level of watchfulness and readiness could range from high to moderate or even low.  But, all the rescued will have much to be thankful for.  Of course, it would be a different matter for the hostile element, which would be in darkness.

Similarly, God has left His children intelligence, or light concerning what lies ahead.  We have been given the inside scoop that the Thief of thieves is one day coming to steal us away.  Yet, all have not equally busied themselves with the matter of watching and being ready.  Notwithstanding, for all of His children the event of the rescue will be a blessed experience, for which all will be thankful.  Of course, as above, it will be a different matter for the hostile element.

Marilyn, one does not have to understand things as you are to "see the day approaching" (Heb. 10:25).  I "see the day approaching" with the understanding that I presently have.  And, it harmonizes with Scripture.  I have had a difficult time really appreciating your song, if you will.  For me, I am just hearing to many off-notes.  Perhaps I am tone deaf.  But, I really appreciate the tones of Scripture.

3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

NAE we are here to discuss scripture not give a tirade, putting down another person. When someone does that they think they can `win` an argument by accusations and putting down another.

Not edifying to others if they are reading.

Thus I will leave this thread.

Ms. Marilyn, I apologize for giving you the impression that I was putting you down.  Really, I was hopeful that I might convince you by Scripture and someone else's logic that you need to rethink your position.  If you used the word "tirade" because you felt that I was angry, I was not.   I have never been angry with anyone on the boards.  And, even if someone seems angry at me, or seems to be putting me down, I give all of that to the Lord.  Now, I do realize that I was strong in what I said, but I felt strongly about what I was saying.  I know that you (and anyone) would have to perceive this.  Also, I know that when we are typing our replies, we can't know what the tone of one's voice might be if he or she was speaking.  I just read my reply again, thinking of what it might sound like if I had been angry, and I CAN see what you mean, IF you were taking it that I was angry.  But, I wasn't.   Again, "Really, I was hopeful that I might convince you by Scripture and someone else's logic that you need to rethink your position."  And again, "I apologize for giving you the impression that I was putting you down."

[not an echo]

On 10/22/2021 at 7:05 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi not an echo,

Good to look at the details. 

Hopefully we can now continue a little further along our path.  For those who may join us and do not know what this path is about, or where it leads, we embarked on it on October 19, 2021.  I explain about it at our entry point, found in the first post on page 10.  We come to the first three checkpoints on this path there as well.  Continuing now from where we last paused (01/03/22-page 24-2nd post), our focus will still be on the...

INTERNAL EVIDENCES

NUMBER 25---(Joel 2:28-32)  Looking once again at the same section of Joel that we focused on in NUMBER 24, but from a different vantage point on our path, it is very telling that Peter only ever draws attention to this part of Joel's prophecy (Acts 2:16-21).  I doubt that anyone would suppose that he was not at this time also aware of the rest of Joel's prophecy---especially all that was prior to what he here quoted.  I submit that many others present on the Day of Pentecost were familiar with this as well.  What am I getting at?  If everything Joel prophesied concerned only one Day of the LORD judgment---as you and so many others are believing---where's the concern of the assembled Jews over everything else that Joel had prophesied prior to what Peter quoted?  Why would there not have been a sense of dire urgency stirred over all of that, especially with them having just crucified their Messiah?

NUMBER 26---(Joel 3:1-8)  Akin to my NUMBER 23 reasoning, if "the northern army" (2:20) is your Russian Federation and God removes them before the tribulation starts and then blesses the Israelites to the tune of 2:21-27, how can what is spoken in 3:1-8 concerning what "the nations" will have done to the Israelites take place---after "the tribulation"?  Now, in response to my NUMBER 23, you ended up indicating that you believe 2:21-27 concerns the Millennium ("v. 21 - 27 God tells of Israel's restoration. (Millennium)").  Further, you indicated that you believe Joel 2:18 concerns the future---you just don't indicate when in the future ("Joel 2: 18 God saying what He will do, (future)").  I've said this to point out that in your post, you don't indicate anything concerning the words of Joel 2:19, which are lead-in words of blessing towards the Israelites, undeniably connected to what he prophesies concerning "the northern army" in 2:20.  Why in the world am I busying myself trying to sort through all of this?   Because, when I begin to look closer at the way you try to fit the prophetic puzzle pieces, I see a jumble rather than true fits.  What you do with your take on 2:21-27 doesn't solve the fit problem that 2:19 poses for your position.

Here's a copy & paste of your post I am referring to.  Again, note your absence of anything relating to Joel 2:19.  An oversight?

"Hi NAE,

Joel 2: 1 - 17 The beginning of the Day of the Lord, time period.

Joel 2: 18 God saying what He will do, (future)

Joel 2: 20 God removes the Northern army.

v. 21 - 27 God tells of Israel`s restoration. (Millennium)

v. 28 & 29 God reveals that He will give them His Holy Spirit. (millennium)

v. 30 - 32 God gives some detail on the specific Day of the Lord. 

ch. 3 God gives more detail of the specific Day of the Lord when He comes to deliver Israel and judge the nations."

NUMBER 27---(Joel 3:9-16)  Not forgetting everything else I have brought out in this thread up until now, for those who hold that every mention of the DOTL in Joel is of the same DOTL judgment, note that everything connected with the first three mentions of the DOTL (1:15, 2:1, and 2:11) is a warning of judgment against the children of Israel, but, everything connected with the last two mentions of the DOTL (2:31 and 3:14) is words of blessing for Israel and of judgment against the heathen.  Whatever one's position, this is something that must be considered and reconciled---consistently.

[not an echo]

On 10/22/2021 at 7:05 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi not an echo,

Good to look at the details. 

There are three more checkpoints on our path of internal evidences that I would like to stop at for a bit before we start down the path of external evidences.  Let's look now at those last three...

INTERNAL EVIDENCES

NUMBER 28---(Joel 3:17-21)  What Joel here prophesies concerns what God will do for the Israelites and the land of Israel in the latter time of the last days---in the time of Christ's Millennial Reign (e.g., "And it shall come to pass in that day"/vs. 18).  God's desire would have been to bless them in this way back in the 8th and 6th centuries B.C., but they would not repent of their wicked ways and turn to Him, as He instructed them to do in Joel 2:12-17.  If they had, they would have met the "Then" condition of 2:18 and God would have at that time did for them what is written in 2:18-27.  However, what they did---which resulted in what God did---was this, as recorded in II Chronicles 36:

16 But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised His words, and misused His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, till there was no remedy.

17 THEREFORE He brought upon them the king of the Chaldees, who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion upon young man or maiden, old man, or him that stooped for age: He gave them all into his hand.

18 And all the vessels of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king, and of his princes; all these he brought to Babylon.

19 And they burnt the house of God, and brake down the wall of Jerusalem, and burnt all the palaces thereof with fire, and destroyed all the goodly vessels thereof.

20 And them that had escaped from the sword carried he away to Babylon; where they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia:

21 To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years.

NUMBER 29---(Joel 1:1-3:21)  At this stop, I would like to point out that there is no mention or hint of the Antichrist in the book of Joel.  Moreover, the Antichrist has nothing to do with---nor is he involved in anything having to do with---the first three Day of the LORD judgments prophesied of in Joel (1:15, 2:1, and 2:11).  The "nation" of 1:6, the "great people and a strong" of 2:2, "His (God's) army" of 2:11, "the northern army" of 2:20, and the army God calls "My great army" of 2:25 were being directed and used by God for the purpose of chastening the Israelites in the 8th and 6th centuries B.C.  The nations of the last days will be directed and used by the Antichrist against the Israelites and later Christ and His army, in the showdown of the Battle of Armageddon.  Consider what John writes in Revelation 19...

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him that sat on the horse, and against His army.

We know that Christ would not be coming against Himself, or what God would refer to as "My great army" at the Battle of Armageddon.  As Jesus said in Mark 3...

24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

NUMBER 30---(Joel 1:1-3:21)  Finally, whatever of Joel may be believed to fit The Revelation, it must fit, and not be in contradiction.  For example, in Joel 1 it reads (concerning the locusts),

4 That which the palmerworm hath left hath the locust eaten; and that which the locust hath left hath the cankerworm eaten; and that which the cankerworm hath left hath the caterpiller eaten.

But, in Revelation 9 it reads (concerning the locusts),

3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

4 And it was commanded them that they SHOULD NOT hurt the grass of the earth, neither ANY green thing, neither ANY tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Another example would be this from Joel 2:2 concerning the army there being spoken of: "there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations."  As the KJV reads, this wording allows for another of "the like" but not until after "the years of many generations."  If the "Russian Federation" is the army being spoken of and it comes against Israel just before the tribulation, there is not "many" generations between this time and the Battle of Armageddon, but only one.  Conversely, if this portion of Joel's prophecy indicates that there shall never be the like ever again (as some other translations suggest), there's still one more.  After Christ's Millennial Reign there is the Gog/Magog uprising, when Satan will "gather them together to battle:  the number of whom is as the sand of the sea" (Rev. 20:8).  I submit that the only interpretation free of these conflicts is that the army being spoken of in Joel 2:2 was Nebuchadrezzar's Babylon.

This will mark the end of our path concerning the internal evidences we find in Joel, which show that he prophesied of both the historical Day of the LORD judgment that happened in the 8th and 6th centuries B.C. and also of the last day's Day of the LORD judgment yet to come.  Of course, some of the evidences we have looked at are more weighty, some less.  But, if we had a balance scale before us, the combined weight of the evidences I have shown would tilt the scale far in the favor of my conclusions.  For those who may yet believe otherwise, if the real truth of the matter is different than what I have shown, compiling evidences to tilt the scale in the direction of the really real truth should not be that difficult.

As I indicated before we started down the path we just finished, there is also the path of EXTERNAL EVIDENCES that there was indeed a Day of the LORD judgment that happened in both the 8th and 6th centuries B.C., which if so, means this fact is very relevant to correctly interpreting Joel's prophecy.  We will be starting down that path shortly.

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, not an echo said:

As I indicated before we started down the path we just finished, there is also the path of EXTERNAL EVIDENCES that there was indeed a Day of the LORD judgment that happened in both the 8th and 6th centuries B.C., which if so, means this fact is very relevant to correctly interpreting Joel's prophecy.  We will be starting down that path shortly.

If one breaks the prophecy up into pieces it can be made to say anything. All the elements of the prophecy must come to pass with in the scope of the fulfillment of the prophecy or it did not come to pass.

Deut 18 and 2 Peter 1 speaks to this. 

So in order for the Joel 1 to have been fulfilled in ancient times not only would the day of the Lord have to be impending but all the food grasses must be burned up, the trees scorched and the water dried up, the pastures burned, as well as the meat and drink offering withheld from the house of God, and all of this at the same time. 

Now if proof of all of the above can be presented as occurring together in either the 6 BC or 8 BC, or any time in history, please submit the findings.

Not only this but Joel tell us in 1:12, "...surely the joy of MANKIND has dried up." This is a reference to a global and not local event as Joel tells us the food, the wine, the oil and the fruits are all gone and mankind's joy is destroyed. 

Did old Nebby destroy the grass and the trees and the vine and the dry up the water? Globally? He didn't even do that in Israel. 

Not even close to fulfillment. This is end of the age stuff at the one, singular day of joy and terror of the 2nd coming of Jesus.