Why would God punish us in this dispensation (New Covenant) when Christ has been punished for us?

[Michael37]

9 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

As we grow in our faith we will sin less and less,
because as believers we already have the fruit of the Spirit.

Amen.

2Pe 1:10  Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;
 

[Guest]

On 9/15/2021 at 11:07 PM, biblelesson said:

God does not punish us in our life under this current dispensation (New Covenant) because His Son took our punishment; Jesus died to cover the sins of the world and sin is blotted out in Christ, Colossians 2:14, “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.”

 God is working today to gathering the souls of those who will be saved in Christ; and He is doing this through the Holy Spirit.   

Philippians 1:6, “Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.”   So, It is God who Has begun a good work, and He is perfecting it in us, 1 Peter 5:10, “But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.”

1 Corinthians 1:3-4, “Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort, who comforteth us in all our tribulations, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.  So, as we go through our tribulation and suffering and afterwards, we are to comfort others the way God comforts us.  But if we think we are being punished, how will God comfort us?

We will suffer tribulation, persecution, and difficult times, which is the process of the furnace of fire. When we find ourselves in the furnace, it’s a shock to the system, the psyche, and the heart.  Christians are place in situation they have never experience before, and of course will not have the knowledge and wisdom to help them maneuver in such situations.  God is aware that when He throws the Christian in the furnace of fire, that Christian is going to make many mistakes throughout their trial, and these mistakes are sins.   However, we are told to count it all joy.  So, what are we counting all joy while going through such trials that we don’t like, don’t know how to handle, don’t know what to do, is scarry, heart breaking, makes us angry, etc.?  What’s the joy of such a situation?  God’s grace is the joy.  God knowing the pain and suffering we will endure is working to make us “walk thou holy before Him.”  We are being made perfect for the Kingdom in Christ Jesus.
 
But because we really, really don’t understand, at first, we think that because our reactions of anger, strong words to others, bitterness, and other responses, which is what the trials are supposed to bring out, is wrong and sinful, and God is punishing us. We think, “I must have sinned, that’s why I’m dealing with this situation.”   But no, God is not punishing us.  Jesus was punished for us.  God is growing us to be able to STAND!  

When we think God is punishing us, we are making a mistake in judgment.  What’s happening is we are following the lies of the devil.  

There are two planes:

Plane 1

In Christ there is no sin because Christ has been made sin for us, 2 Corinthians 5:21.   Therefore, God does not impute sin onto us, Romans 4:8.  In this present dispensation, God does not punish us, but allow us to go through trials for His purposes for our salvation.  But He is doing the work on us, and we will get through it.  

Plane 2

Satan is the one causing the grief, but God allows it like Job.  God uses it for good, but Satan uses it for bad.  Satan lies and tells us that we are going through our suffering because we committed a sin against God, and that we are being punished.  But this is a lie because Christ died for the sinner, and we are a reconciled to God in Christ.  

2 Corinthians 5:18, “And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them…”

So, we are not being punished for our sins in this dispensation (New Covenant), we are being put through trials that are difficult, which provides an opportunity for Satan to lie to us, like he did with job by causing Job’s friends to make incorrect assessment of his situation causing more grief for him. 

The punishment will come in the end for those who do not accept Christ as their savior. 

(Romans 8:5)  For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
(Romans 8:6)  For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
(Romans 8:7)  For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
(Romans 8:8)  Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
(Romans 8:9)  You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
(Romans 8:10)  But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
(Romans 8:11)  If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.  [ESV]

 

[steve morrow]

TEACH  ALL  THE  WORDS  OF  THIS  LIFE

 

JOB 38:2  who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge 

 

PROVERBS 4:19  the way of the wicked is as darkness they know not at what they stumble

 

1 PETER 2:21  for even hereunto were you called because  CHRIST  also suffered for us leaving us an example---that you should follow his steps---

 

2 PETER 3:11  seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved ---what manner of persons ought you to be--- in all holy conversation and godliness

 

2 CORINTHIANS 13:8  for we can do nothing against the truth but for the truth

ROMANS 8:9  but you are not in the flesh but in the spirit if so be the spirit of  GOD  dwelleth in you now if any man ---have not the spirit of  CHRIST  ---he is none of  HIS ---

JOHN 6:63  it is the spirit that quickeneth the flesh profiteth nothing the words ---that I speak unto you--- they are spirit and they are life 

ROMANS 8:10  and if  CHRIST  be in you the body is dead because of sin but the ---spirit is life --because-- of righteousness---

JOHN 14:6  JESUS  saith unto him I am the way the truth ---and  the  life---no man cometh unto  THE  FATHER  but by me

PROVEBRS 8:8  all the words of my mouth ---are in righteousness--- there is nothing froward or perverse in them

EPHESIANS 5:9  for the fruit of the spirit ---is in--- all goodness and ---all righteousness--- and truth

 

ECCLESIASTES 5:7  for in the multitude of dreams and many words there are also diverse vanities ---but fear thou  GOD ---

1 CORINTHIANS 1:10 now I beseech you --brethren--by the name of our  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST  that you all ---speak the same thing---and that there be no divisions among you but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgement 

LUKE 8:21  and  HE  answered and said unto them  my mother and --my brethren-- are these which hear the word of  GOD  --and do it--

 

*******PSALM 25:10  ALL  THE  PATHS  OF  THE  LORD  ARE  MERCY  AND  TRUTH  UNTO  SUCH  AS  KEEP  HIS  COVENANT  AND  HIS  TESTIMONIES******* 

 

LOVING  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST 

 

[Waggles]

9 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Trials do not produce the fruit of the Spirit.

We have been given the fruit of the Spirit for free by grace,
and therefore need to believe such,
and therefore exercise the fruit that we already have.

It's all about faith.

Trials happen to test our faith.

Grief and shame happens as a result of sin.

As we grow in our faith we will sin less and less,
because as believers we already have the fruit of the Spirit.

Sorry I do strongly disagree with this claim.

The fruit of the Spirit comes through living the gospel, that is experience through patience and overcoming. Learning from mistakes and praying in the Spirit to renew and strengthen the inner person. 

Maturity and becoming more perfect, or Christlike, takes time and remaining faithful through trials and tribulations does produce fruit. 

One can read the Bible (theory) but one also has to put it into practice by exercising the power and purpose of the Holy Spirit within us.

Romans 5:3  Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 
4  and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 
5  and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us. 

[TheBlade]

On 9/15/2021 at 9:07 PM, biblelesson said:

God does not punish us in our life under this current dispensation (New Covenant) because His Son took our punishment; Jesus died to cover the sins of the world and sin is blotted out in Christ, Colossians 2:14, “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.”

 God is working today to gathering the souls of those who will be saved in Christ; and He is doing this through the Holy Spirit.   

Philippians 1:6, “Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.”   So, It is God who Has begun a good work, and He is perfecting it in us, 1 Peter 5:10, “But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.”

1 Corinthians 1:3-4, “Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort, who comforteth us in all our tribulations, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.  So, as we go through our tribulation and suffering and afterwards, we are to comfort others the way God comforts us.  But if we think we are being punished, how will God comfort us?

We will suffer tribulation, persecution, and difficult times, which is the process of the furnace of fire. When we find ourselves in the furnace, it’s a shock to the system, the psyche, and the heart.  Christians are place in situation they have never experience before, and of course will not have the knowledge and wisdom to help them maneuver in such situations.  God is aware that when He throws the Christian in the furnace of fire, that Christian is going to make many mistakes throughout their trial, and these mistakes are sins.   However, we are told to count it all joy.  So, what are we counting all joy while going through such trials that we don’t like, don’t know how to handle, don’t know what to do, is scarry, heart breaking, makes us angry, etc.?  What’s the joy of such a situation?  God’s grace is the joy.  God knowing the pain and suffering we will endure is working to make us “walk thou holy before Him.”  We are being made perfect for the Kingdom in Christ Jesus.
 
But because we really, really don’t understand, at first, we think that because our reactions of anger, strong words to others, bitterness, and other responses, which is what the trials are supposed to bring out, is wrong and sinful, and God is punishing us. We think, “I must have sinned, that’s why I’m dealing with this situation.”   But no, God is not punishing us.  Jesus was punished for us.  God is growing us to be able to STAND!  

When we think God is punishing us, we are making a mistake in judgment.  What’s happening is we are following the lies of the devil.  

There are two planes:

Plane 1

In Christ there is no sin because Christ has been made sin for us, 2 Corinthians 5:21.   Therefore, God does not impute sin onto us, Romans 4:8.  In this present dispensation, God does not punish us, but allow us to go through trials for His purposes for our salvation.  But He is doing the work on us, and we will get through it.  

Plane 2

Satan is the one causing the grief, but God allows it like Job.  God uses it for good, but Satan uses it for bad.  Satan lies and tells us that we are going through our suffering because we committed a sin against God, and that we are being punished.  But this is a lie because Christ died for the sinner, and we are a reconciled to God in Christ.  

2 Corinthians 5:18, “And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them…”

So, we are not being punished for our sins in this dispensation (New Covenant), we are being put through trials that are difficult, which provides an opportunity for Satan to lie to us, like he did with job by causing Job’s friends to make incorrect assessment of his situation causing more grief for him. 

The punishment will come in the end for those who do not accept Christ as their savior.  

 

Hi where are you coming from here? Well whats this punishment your talking about? Yes Christ died we died.. Christ rose we rose there is no sin Christ is holding over us He already died for the sin of the world. "And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged." 

Thats whats going on right now. Shows we truly do not grasp, fathom, understand just why He came and everything that His death and resurrection entails. This is the age of grace this is why every year 40-50 million babies are aborted. Thats about 125000 every day and what does GOD do about it? Hes already judged the world and we that know Christ are not getting judged or punished. That happens when we walk away.. you walk into sin you keep doing sin.. its not GOD that is punishing you.. you gave the enemy the right to attack you some do not understand he has that right.. for he is the god of this world. 

This is the age of grace yet will not last much longer. God does disapline yet as MAN we think thats hmm how did one word it " unless they have suffered and struggle for some explanation of how that relates to God. In other words, the more easy and pain-free your life has been, the less you will cherish the kind of spirituality taught in this book. And the more you have suffered, the more you will cling to the precious teachings of this book — if you are willing to believe them."

Some really believe GOD does this. Every time for me when I talk about sin or this He reminds me again "what is righteousness" "how to you get righteousness". See HE asked me this many years ago. That is how HE GOD sees YOU right now. .. to much to get into.. don't take my word for this..don't believe me.. you pray you study you ask HIM not what some no name on in the internet says ..well like me. He is SO REAL.. everyone false or not has hope.. its not the SIN keeping any one from the Father...its do you know Jesus as lord. The sheep and Goats are when He comes the 2nd time AFTER the great tribulation when His saints.. you and me. Those "He never knew" were never saved. He NEVER knew them.. He can not lie. 

[Waggles]

Hebrews 9:24  For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 
25  Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 
26  for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 
27  And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgement, 
28  so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. 

[Desopixi Seilynam]

On 9/19/2021 at 4:41 PM, Waggles said:

The fruit of the Spirit comes through living the gospel

The good news is that Christ died and rose from the dead shedding the Holy Spirit upon all flesh. Those who sincerely believe the good news are then indwelt by the Holy Spirit and thereby empowered to live righteously.

"Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law or by the hearing of faith?"
Galatians 3:2

"In whom ye trusted after that ye heard the word of truth,
the good news of your salvation: in whom also after you believed,
ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise"
Ephesians 1:13-14

"as God has said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them,
and be their God and they shall be my people...."
"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved,
let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit,
perfecting holiness in the feat of God."
2 Corinthians 6:16, 7:1

We have the Spirit,

the Holy Spirit is granted upon sincere belief.
The fruit of the Spirit is something we have,

we are a new creation, 2 Corinthians 5:17

... whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind,
forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

2 Peter 1:5-9

That is the way the apostles speak, it's all about faith,
we need to actually consider ourselves dead to sin.

[Waggles]

16 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

That is the way the apostles speak, it's all about faith,
we need to actually consider ourselves dead to sin.

Yes but that takes time and experience to outwardly show everyday the fruit of the Spirit. Walking in the Spirit requires perseverance and enduring trials and tribulations.

One grows in maturity and becomes more Christlike over time. 

16 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Those who sincerely believe the good news are then indwelt by the Holy Spirit and thereby empowered to live righteously.

One may be empowered to live righteously but one also needs to learn and practice this through discipleship. 

[Marathoner]

Then Jews from Antioch and Iconium came there; and having persuaded the multitudes, they stoned Paul and dragged him out of the city, supposing him to be dead. However, when the disciples gathered around him, he rose up and went into the city. And the next day he departed with Barnabas to Derbe.

And when they had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.” (Acts 14:19-22 NKJV)

We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God. 

Tribulation is not punishment, nor are trials the displeasure of the Lord poured upon those who are called by His name. The apostle was stoned and presumed dead... he was shipwrecked more than once... and he endured persecution by the hands of the wicked during his time upon this earth. Are we better than our elder brother, the chosen vessel of Christ?

The Lord Himself was silent before His accusers like a lamb led to the slaughter, having humbled Himself to be numbered among transgressors. Are we therefore greater than the author and finisher of our faith? As He suffered so do we, for we shall be like Him. The Son of the living God came in this flesh and blood and having offered it up in fulfillment of our Father's will, He rose from the dead and is alive forevermore: the first among many brethren. 

So we will be like Him, only we suffer in this flesh and blood for a little while. The Lord scourges every son and daughter He receives; this is how we know that we are not illegitimate children. The fruit of the trial is endurance and of tribulation, being transformed into the likeness of Christ, the express image of the invisible God, from glory to glory. There is no greater honor a man or woman may receive, than to be in the hand of the living God. No matter what befalls us, it is according to His will and purpose. 

We rejoice in our sufferings.     

[Waggles]

John 16:33  These things have I spoken to you, that in me ye may have peace. In the world ye have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

And let us not be weary in the well-doing: for in its own season we shall reap, if we faint not.  Galatians 6:9