ERROR: That the Body of Christ becoming complete depends on a certain number of Gentiles.

[AdHoc]

15 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi AdHoc,

That`s fine the length as you were giving good detail. Yes Magog and Armageddon are different battles. There is the Magog war BEFORE the trib, and the Magog war AFTER the millennium. Magog meaning the country of the northern area. Thus that area is inhabited during both those times.

Also Israel has a wall as you say, BUT the Golan Heights, villages and mountains has not a wall. That is the region that the Russian Federation will come down to, (drawn by God). Israel won that area back in 1967 however the UN does not recognise it as Israel`s. As to `horses etc` the Russian army and its allies have plenty of those, especially in those areas.  

So we agree that the Body of Christ is not Jew or Gentile, and Rom. 11 is showing that both are included into the `root` which is Christ. That is the point of that illustration, both are IN Christ. We can`t try and place other meaning other than what is actually said. That is why we read all the scriptures on a topic, (as you know) to get the full meaning. Note the interpretation of a symbol has to do with the context as well as its use else where, but not always. 

I disagree that there is no scripture that says Israel will turn to Christ.

`And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on me whom they have pierced; they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for him as one grieves for a first-born.` (Zech. 12: 10)

And Jeremiah 31 is a good quote.

I agree that Israel`s salvation is the recovery of God`s promise to Israel through Abraham - rulership of the nations.

good talking with you, Marilyn.

 

 

Nice swapping ideas with you too. Go well.

[WilliamL]

On 11/8/2021 at 2:46 PM, AdHoc said:

Romans 11:25 tells us that Israel will remain in blindness and unbelief until Christ bursts out the clouds over Mt. Olivet, saves Jerusalem and then conquers Gentile military and political power at Armageddon in Jezreel. It then that the times of the Gentiles are full.

But, I'm interested in your posting. Do you think that Christ will return without having enlivened the set number of Christians? I'll tell you why this is important. Rebirth and eternal life are only gained by FAITH. Hebrews 11:1 defines faith as the substance and hope of things UNSEEN. The moment our Lord Jesus is SEEN (coming from the clouds) faith CEASES. He can be SEEN and the formula for faith dissolves. If Israel remains in unbelief until Christ is SEEN, then their salvation is not the same as a Christian.

Lots of thoughtful things in your posts. ("A gentleman and a scholar.")

Regarding the first paragraph above, I disagree. Israel comes into belief when "every eye shall see Him" (Rev. 1:7), when He comes to take up His Church. At that time, the Jews "will look unto Me whom they pierced, and they will mourn over Him as one mourns over the only son, and grieve over Him as one grieves over the firstborn." Zech. 12:10 The Armageddon and Ezekiel 38-39 war takes place much later, when Jesus returns (Rev. 19, etc.) in power to destroy His earthly enemies. At that time, weapons and devices of warfare will indeed be horses and lances and bows, due to the destruction wrought by the massive earth changes and mega-battles among nations in the period between 6th Seal and the 7th Bowl. Earthly technology, which relies upon fragile supply chains (as we are beginning to see come under great stress now) and peaceful conditions, will be destroyed, never to be replaced.

Regarding your second paragraph, you nailed it. This is why the came-to-faith Jews at the time of Christ's return in the clouds for His Church will not be able to ascend with Him, but will remain "on earth" (Rev. 7:1ff.) during the 3-1/2 times of Jacob's trouble.

On 11/9/2021 at 10:00 AM, AdHoc said:

(v) a thousand years is as a day to the Lord. Now, which one fits Adam's life.

The answer of course is number (v). Adam died WITHIN a day and he made 930 years.

True, but not exclusively so. In the natural body (soul and flesh), yes; but in the spiritual body, Adam died that day. Double judgment, because man, like Jesus, has a double nature.

 

[WilliamL]

On 11/6/2021 at 6:49 PM, Marilyn C said:

3.     This error is based on a wrong interpretation of a single scripture.

`For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, let you should be wise in your own opinion, that hardening in part has happened to Israel until the fullness (or, fulfillment) of the Gentiles has come in.` (Rom. 11: 25)  

The phrase in blue is an exact quotation from, and reference to, Genesis 48:19 "...his [Ephraim's] posterity shall be(come) the fullness (or, fulfillment) of the Gentiles."

This patriarchal prophecy by Jacob, when he made the sign of the cross with his hands upon the heads of Joseph's sons Ephraim and Manasseh (the first instance in the Bible of a laying on of hands), has a much greater significance for our times than most Christians (or Jews) realize. Jacob made Joseph "the nazir/Consecrated One of his brothers" (Gen. 49:26), which consecration passed on through his sons.

Paul prophesied in Romans 11:25 that when this prophecy has become fulfilled, then, essentially, the End of the Christian Age will come. Because God will not begin to restore Israel until that time. That time being when Jesus returns in the clouds of heaven, and "every eye will see Him" (see the post above), and the Jews will mourn for Him and understand that He is their Messiah "whom they pierced."

So we should look around the world and see where the nation/s of Ephraim is/are, and the corresponding relationship of the Gentiles = nations with respect to it/them, and judge whether or not this destiny has fulfilled its course. Or is near to it.

[Marilyn C]

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

While I might have some questions about how that position was reached I wholeheartedly commend that statement. If that statement were fully embraced in the depth of its scripturally-informed necessity there'd a lot fewer posts in this board .  Well done.

Hi Josheb,

So glad we can agree there. Yes we do have differences, however it is a journey and we know that the Lord, the Head of His Body is leading us by the Holy Spirit into all truth.

Thank you, Marilyn.

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Lots of thoughtful things in your posts. ("A gentleman and a scholar.")

Regarding the first paragraph above, I disagree. Israel comes into belief when "every eye shall see Him" (Rev. 1:7), when He comes to take up His Church. At that time, the Jews "will look unto Me whom they pierced, and they will mourn over Him as one mourns over the only son, and grieve over Him as one grieves over the firstborn." Zech. 12:10 The Armageddon and Ezekiel 38-39 war takes place much later, when Jesus returns (Rev. 19, etc.) in power to destroy His earthly enemies. At that time, weapons and devices of warfare will indeed be horses and lances and bows, due to the destruction wrought by the massive earth changes and mega-battles among nations in the period between 6th Seal and the 7th Bowl. Earthly technology, which relies upon fragile supply chains (as we are beginning to see come under great stress now) and peaceful conditions, will be destroyed, never to be replaced.

Regarding your second paragraph, you nailed it. This is why the came-to-faith Jews at the time of Christ's return in the clouds for His Church will not be able to ascend with Him, but will remain "on earth" (Rev. 7:1ff.) during the 3-1/2 times of Jacob's trouble.

True, but not exclusively so. In the natural body (soul and flesh), yes; but in the spiritual body, Adam died that day. Double judgment, because man, like Jesus, has a double nature.

 

Thanks for the reply and the nice comments. I will cut directly to your main point. Consider this; When Thomas saw our Lord Jesus he no doubt believed. But he had no faith. He was "faithless" says the Lord Jesus in John 20:27. And this is because the definition of Faith in Hebrews 11:1 depends, as its substance "things NOT SEEN".  

¹ Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

No doubt Israel will believe that the one they pierced is their Messiah and that they have truly messed up. And that Israel will revere Him after that is not in question. But that is NOT FAITH. 

The sequence that scripture gives for the main battles is Armageddon which includes His visit to Bozrah to settle the score with Edom. Then, with Gentile military and political power crushed, our Lord sets up His Kingdom on earth as Daniel predicted. It is an everlasting Kingdom, but the first 1,000 years are set aside (i) on the earth under its present regime of the Nations still in their un-resurrected bodies, (ii) summer and winter with harvests, (iii) a rule of the rod of iron, and (iv) a period of "subduing". At the END of the 1,000 years, a whole new generation of men and women will have been born to the Nations, who never knew Satan's regime. The time will have come for God to test them, plus the Kingdom that Christ has set up, with its Capital Jerusalem. Satan is loosed and he choses Magog and God as his vehicle to attack Jerusalem. The grammar is unequivocal;

Revelation 20:7–8

⁷And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

⁸And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

If you go back to Ezekiel 38 and 39 and write down the circumstances of Israel, you will see sharp contrasts to the Jerusalem of Armageddon and Jerusalem when the 1,000 years of peace have had their effect. This will also explain why primitive weapons are used. All weapons factories in the Millennium will produce agricultural equipment for the great harvests and because there is no war (Isa.2:4, Am.9:13).

Go well brother.

[Marilyn C]

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The phrase in blue is an exact quotation from, and reference to, Genesis 48:19 "...his [Ephraim's] posterity shall be(come) the fullness (or, fulfillment) of the Gentiles."

This patriarchal prophecy by Jacob, when he made the sign of the cross with his hands upon the heads of Joseph's sons Ephraim and Manasseh (the first instance in the Bible of a laying on of hands), has a much greater significance for our times than most Christians (or Jews) realize. Jacob made Joseph "the nazir/Consecrated One of his brothers" (Gen. 49:26), which consecration passed on through his sons.

Paul prophesied in Romans 11:25 that when this prophecy has become fulfilled, then, essentially, the End of the Christian Age will come. Because God will not begin to restore Israel until that time. That time being when Jesus returns in the clouds of heaven, and "every eye will see Him" (see the post above), and the Jews will mourn for Him and understand that He is their Messiah "whom they pierced."

So we should look around the world and see where the nation/s of Ephraim is/are, and the corresponding relationship of the Gentiles = nations with respect to it/them, and judge whether or not this destiny has fulfilled its course. Or is near to it.

Hi William,

The Body of Christ was a revelation given to the apostle Paul AFTER the Lord ascended. It has NOTHING to do with Jacob and his descendants. 

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Lots of thoughtful things in your posts. ("A gentleman and a scholar.")

...

True, but not exclusively so. In the natural body (soul and flesh), yes; but in the spiritual body, Adam died that day. Double judgment, because man, like Jesus, has a double nature.

 

The teaching that Adam died spiritually was developed because men ASSUMED that the Sabbath was bounded by the "evening and the morning". They had no option but to develop this notion. But the spirit of a man cannot die, and there is not a single verse or narrative in the whole Bible of a spirit dying. Added to this, the notion of "spiritual death" presupposes that Adam had spiritual LIFE, which is patently not the case. He never ate from the Tree of Life. 

²² And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

This verse is very telling. The word "also" grammatically indicates that it would have been an additional thing. And it patently says that if he had eaten of it, he would NOT be able to die.

The idea of dying spiritually is a man made idea to cover for not defining the Sabbath's length properly.

That we posses dual natures is only AFTER rebirth. It is only believers who "have partaken of the divine nature" (2nd Pet.1:4).

[AdHoc]

22 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Josheb,

So glad we can agree there. Yes we do have differences, however it is a journey and we know that the Lord, the Head of His Body is leading us by the Holy Spirit into all truth.

Thank you, Marilyn.

You are very courteous. In Ephesians 4, in the first verses, we are told to keep the unity of the Spirit by being prepared to step back. Then the intermediate verse tell us that the Lord gave GIFTED ONES to the Church to function "UNTIL" we come to the unity of the FAITH. "THE faith" is what we believe doctrinally. And it is obvious from the word "UNTIL" that quite some time passes. We have to accept that we are all on a journey and that we cannot expect anyone to be at the same point on the journey to "The unity of the faith".

[Jaydub]

On 11/6/2021 at 8:49 PM, Marilyn C said:

For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, let you should be wise in your own opinion, that hardening in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.` (Rom. 11: 25)  

 

So what is the truth? What scriptures reveal to us God`s completeness of the Body of Christ?

A friend of mine gave me a analogy concerning the fullness of the gentiles

She said, picture a large rain barrel being filled a drop at a time, when the time comes at some point the barrel will be filled, but the drops keep coming. Then the barrel starts to over flow, salvation will start to flow. not only to gentiles, but to Jews as well

[Marilyn C]

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You are very courteous. In Ephesians 4, in the first verses, we are told to keep the unity of the Spirit by being prepared to step back. Then the intermediate verse tell us that the Lord gave GIFTED ONES to the Church to function "UNTIL" we come to the unity of the FAITH. "THE faith" is what we believe doctrinally. And it is obvious from the word "UNTIL" that quite some time passes. We have to accept that we are all on a journey and that we cannot expect anyone to be at the same point on the journey to "The unity of the faith".

Hi AdHoc,

I agree and am very pleased to see the truth spelt out.

Thank you, Marilyn.