The Israel Of God Is The Church

[AdHoc]

20 hours ago, Josheb said:

I did not say it was not a covenant. Reread my post, and please pay greater attention to what was written in the post.

 

The question was, "Where is the promise to the nation of Israel to dwell with their king?" 

There is no promise Israel will dwell with their king in the covenant of Genesis 17. It is a covenant, but there is no promise the nation of Israel will dwell with their king. That was the question anne2 asked you and your answer was Genesis 17. The COVENANT of Genesis 17 makes no such statement. 

 

Please pay greater attention to the posts' contents. 

You are correct. I really messed that one up. No excuses. A small mis-read with big consequences.

[AdHoc]

4 hours ago, tatwo said:

Wow…I just read all of the posts in the “The Israel Of God Is The Church” there is so much being said. Often times things are said differently but mean the same thing…can be confusing. I truly have gained some light as a result of this forum to be sure.

I take a simpler look at this subject from this perspective…“And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel.” Gen 3:15 NASB

I see two seeds…Christ and the beast…in the mind of God from the beginning…more can be said…that’s enough for now.

“Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;” Gen 1:26a NASB

His desire for creation is to put Himself on display in humanity…which He did in Christ the head of Christ the body. The Fathers desire is for all that He created to see His character and nature…to be incarnate…in His family. This is what He is presently doing…call it what you want.

 

Tatwo

Hi Tatwo, and welcome to the Forum.

[Anne2]

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

Right. 

No.

One is earthly. For a shadow and pattern.

Unless it is the inheritance of destruction to which you are referring. 

That is true but 1) it still comes from the same inheritance and 2) there is no "second-born." If a person is not in a covenant relationship with God through Christ, then s/he stands condemned and their inheritance if destruction. 

One is an earthly inheritance. For a shadow and pattern. The other is eternal in Christ.

The unfaithful only have a share in the earthly. How is that the same inheritance? Abraham was not given any land in the first covenant.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Anne2

[AdHoc]

16 hours ago, Josheb said:

Appreciate that. 

Now let's take it a step further. There isn't actually anything in the covenants or Law stating God's anointed one would return a second time to physically live on the planet for a thousand years. Yes?

No. A thousand years is not specified. "All the Land of Canaan" is an "everlasting possession" (Gen.17:8).

[AdHoc]

11 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

You stated "20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God."

That is referring to ALL of God's chosen, from all nations:

" ...the tabernacle of God is with men, and He shall dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God "        ( Rev. 21:3). 

I think it is very odd when I have to debate the fact that there is only one plan of salvation. God is no respector of persons. 

Your Bible says; "All of God's chosen from all nations". My Bible says, "The House of Israel and the House of Judah". We'll have to accept that our Bibles are different.

My Bible says that the Church is not revealed to the prophets of old. Your Bible says that Jeremiah spoke of the Church.

My Bible says that we, the Church, have had the Law nailed to the cross, but that the New Covenant with the combined House of Israel is one of God's Laws. Your Bible says that the Law is applicable for the Church.

We actually don't have a base for discussion.

[OneLight]

9 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Your Bible says; "All of God's chosen from all nations". My Bible says, "The House of Israel and the House of Judah". We'll have to accept that our Bibles are different.

My Bible says that the Church is not revealed to the prophets of old. Your Bible says that Jeremiah spoke of the Church.

My Bible says that we, the Church, have had the Law nailed to the cross, but that the New Covenant with the combined House of Israel is one of God's Laws. Your Bible says that the Law is applicable for the Church.

We actually don't have a base for discussion.

May I ask what versions of the bible are being used?????

[AdHoc]

5 minutes ago, OneLight said:

May I ask what versions of the bible are being used?????

I use the King James for study purposes, but recommend the New King James for young Christians. I refer to Darby, Young's Literal and the Amplified. I also see what any literal version which uses the Nestlé-Aland texts says. I shun any dynamic translation, but make no judgment on those who use them.

Jeremiah 31:31-33, where the New Covenant is predicted, it says, in all those versions, that it is made with the two Houses of Israel. Who the Two Houses are is carefully said to be those of their fathers (plural) who came out of Egypt.

[Anne2]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

The important part there is the "shadow and pattern." They are not real, or more accurately, they are not the real inheritance; they are only a shadow, pattern, or type of the reality that was promised. Consider some of the things the New Testament tells us about the OT covenants and their constiuent practices. 

 

Romans 5:12-14
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned — for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of him who was to come.

Colossians 2:16-19
Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day — things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.  Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God. 

Hebrews 8:1-6
Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken his seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.  For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer.  Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law;  who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, "see" He says, "That you make all things according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain." But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as he is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises. 

Hebrews 10:1-18 ESV
For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near.  Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins?  But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year.  For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.  Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, “Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me; in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure.  Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God, as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’”  When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second.  And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.  And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.  But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.  For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.  And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,” then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”  Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin. 

2 Corinthians 3:7-18
 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?  For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.  For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it.  For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.  Therefore, having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away.  But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.  But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.  Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.  But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

Hebrews 11:17-22
By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; it was he to whom it was said, "In Isaac your descendants shall be called." He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type.  By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau, even regarding things to come.  By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.  By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the exodus of the sons of Israel, and gave orders concerning his bones.

 

Think of all the ways the NT writers treated the OT promises and covenants. The seed is not Israel, it is a God-man!!! Paul is quite clear: it is seed singular, not plural; not more than one seed. There are NOT two seeds, both Israel and Jesus, or Israel and the Church. Just Jesus. Think also of all the symbols in the book of Revelation that are explained. The lampstands are the Church! Who would have possible considered that back in Exodus? No one. The fact that these were shadows, types, symbols was hidden from them. A veil was placed over them. They invariably rebelled, thereby hardening their own hearts, and God in turn gave them over to their lusts and idols and further hardened their hearts so they would be ever seeing but never (correctly) perceiving! 

And this is just as true of the covenantts' nature as it is of everything else. 

When Abraham fell asleep after his receiving the covenant promises from God, he saw a smoking pot and a fire walking between the halved carcasses of a suzerain covenant. How would anyone in the Old Testament every have understood that as God Himself pledging to Himself His own life as the cost of disobedience to the covenant? 

This is why I so often ask posters, "What does the New Testament have to say about that Old Testament text?"

The covenant of which you speak Says to Abraham:

Abraham is going to die....

Genesis 15:15  And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.

It concerns the fourth generation of his seed... Not the first, nor the second, or third.
16  But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again:

The land to his seed from the fourth generation on...

18  In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
 

The book of acts 7...

4  Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
5  And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.

Rom 4:3  For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4  Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6  Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7  Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8  Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 ¶  Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10  How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11  And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12  And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
Gen 15: 1   After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2  And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3  And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4  And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5  And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6  And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
 

[Anne2]

4 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Yes, and..... ?

 

There is no mention of two inheritances. It appears the passages just quoted prove there's only one inheritance.

 

Are you aware 1) God fulfilled the land promise? 2) the Hebrews did not keep their portion of the covenant agreement? 3) God declared them covenant breakers and divorced them? 4) gave the covenant, a new covenant to others, abrogating the old? and 5) the New Testament applies the elements of the Abrahamic covenant to those who live by faith in Christ whether Jew or Gentile?

Not according to acts. Abraham as well as the first to the third generation are not party to this covenant. 

Ga 4:22  For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

De 5:2  The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.

Corresponding heirs the women are an allegory for the two covenants....

3  The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
4  The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,
 

 

[Anne2]

Just now, Anne2 said:

Not according to acts. Abraham as well as the first to the third generation are not party to this covenant. They will be dead when this covenant comes into effect.

Ge 50:25  And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence.
Ex 13:19  And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you.
 

Ga 4:22  For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

De 5:2  The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.

Corresponding heirs the women are an allegory for the two covenants....

3  The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
4  The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,