False teachers

[Heleadethme]

16 minutes ago, B-B said:

(It's fine with me to wander from the point, I don't mind) 😃

My point was more in relation to the Scripture I posted about the gift of teaching. Not everyone is called to teach, but those who are called to teach, God would provide the gift of teaching. And they would hopefully be a blessing to their hearers, and teach correct doctrine/true teaching.

However, yes if one feels suffocated/oppressed/lorded over by TPTB in any gathering, then it would probably be a very difficult place to grow, for sure. I suppose if leaders are dictatorial etc. and don't want to listen to folks concerns, within their gatherings, then it is probably not a very healthy environment to be in anyway. (It could end up being  a gathering which has revolving doors...people attend, but then, shortly after, they leave, as they become wise to the shenanigans within. The gathering will be constantly filled with new people/new faces.)

The way things are run in churches, with formalized church services, only one person is exercising their gift (Pastor).  No one else is growing in their gifting because they first of all often aren't often even taught that all Spirit filled believers have been given a spiritual gift, or helped to learn what they have been given, and secondly they are not given the opportunity to exercise their gifts in such settings and growing thereby...exercising their spiritual  senses.  It doesn't even have to be overtly oppressive, but just a way of doing "church" that nobody questions and that is not according to scripture and the simplicity of Christ.  Instead of being active participants who "together" are building up the body of Christ, the people are just passive on-lookers.

Eph 4:16

From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

The whole body is supposed to edify itself, not just be edified by one person.

1Co 14:26

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

[debrakay]

1 hour ago, Starise said:

From reading the first part of your post, I believe the Lord has led you into this ministry and used you for His work. 

Thank you for all of your thoughts, comments, and sharing your experiences.  Testimonies play a huge part in what we learn for one another.

What was said to me was in this thread was by someone whom I have had no interaction with since joining Worthy in March 2021 so it was not a personal attack but merely a personal observation/statement about incorrect "self-interpretation" of a scripture regarding deception.  The "if possible" part of it.  

Mark 13:22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

I have never been a huge student of the end times since I have enough to deal with on a daily basis and never felt the calling to be an End Times Debater so I have never really had in-depth study of many verses dealing with end times issues.  But the "if possible" struck me and I mentioned my concern.  A couple of Worthy scholars wrote back only that it is not possible for any of the "elect/chosen/called" to be deceived without any added commentary for this student.  Then a remark about hoping I was was not teaching others my self-interpretation hit me like a ton of bricks. 

"I'm afraid I think it is rather dangerous to rely on self-interpretation of Scripture. I don't know if you are a teacher @debrakay but I'm hoping this is not something you teach others?" 

I have to admit I still question my intelligence and as I grow older I question it even more.  By prayer and seeking the Lord He led me to the book of John and a scripture that settled any question in my mind about there being any possibility of the chosen child of God being deceived by a false prophet or teacher.  

John 10:27-30 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.  My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.”

Had the poster not made the remark I would not have found the answer and wisdom is what I seek.  

James 1:1-5 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.  But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing. If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.

My interpretation of scripture has always been Holy Spirit driven and not self driven.  I have always tried to seek and find as I was instructed to do 4 decades ago when the Spirit of God came into me.  Do I always hear correctly, of course not.  But do I continue to grow and learn.  Yes and Amen!!

Edited January 5, 2022 by debrakay

[B-B]

11 minutes ago, Heleadethme said:

The way things are run in churches, with formalized church services, only one person is exercising their gift (Pastor).  No one else is growing in their gifting because they first of all often aren't often even taught that all Spirit filled believers have been given a spiritual gift, or helped to learn what they have been given, and secondly they are not given the opportunity to exercise their gifts in such settings and growing thereby...exercising their spiritual  senses.  It doesn't even have to be overtly oppressive, but just a way of doing "church" that nobody questions and that is not according to scripture and the simplicity of Christ.  Instead of being active participants who "together" are building up the body of Christ, the people are just passive on-lookers.

Eph 4:16

From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

The whole body is supposed to edify itself, not just be edified by one person.

1Co 14:26

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

Yes, everyone can and should be able to serve/contribute in some way, but hopefully there will still be some sort of order and structure within services/meetings. 😊

Edited January 5, 2022 by B-B

[enoob57]

20 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Well said, @GandalfTheWise Would you like an honourary degree? 

Okay how much is that going to cost us  

[Heleadethme]

2 hours ago, B-B said:

Yes, everyone can and should be able to serve/contribute in some way, but hopefully there will still be some sort of order and structure within services/meetings. 😊

Amen.  Decently and in order with the overseers overseeing and facilitating...everyone taking turns as the bible instructs.

[Starise]

19 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

The way things are run in churches, with formalized church services, only one person is exercising their gift (Pastor).  No one else is growing in their gifting because they first of all often aren't often even taught that all Spirit filled believers have been given a spiritual gift, or helped to learn what they have been given, and secondly they are not given the opportunity to exercise their gifts in such settings and growing thereby...exercising their spiritual  senses.  It doesn't even have to be overtly oppressive, but just a way of doing "church" that nobody questions and that is not according to scripture and the simplicity of Christ.  Instead of being active participants who "together" are building up the body of Christ, the people are just passive on-lookers.

Eph 4:16

From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

The whole body is supposed to edify itself, not just be edified by one person.

1Co 14:26

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

I have thought at length about this now for awhile. Some churches have strict entry rules for a person to teach. Other churches are more loose in that regard. I guess in Canada church is being frowned upon entirely because of the COVID restrictions.

I taught when I was younger, then I entered into churches with designated people for those roles. Most of our Sunday School classes allow for lots of input though.

I don't necessarily want the position unless the Lord would open it up again and call me in that direction. I am serving in other areas of my church.

We are all teachers in one way or another whether we realize it or not. Everything we do and say teaches others about who we are.

Congregations all need leaders, but I agree, many of them are in paid positions and those men don't often see themselves as shepherding a new person gifted in these areas. In fact, I have seen the opposite where a pastor feels threatened and pushes the person out of the church. Sad but true. My exposure might not have been fairly balanced, as I'm sure this isn't the case in all churches. 

Pastoring  large church is a huge responsibility. Someone who doesn't strongly consider what they are saying up front and who their audience is can create all kinds of problems. Wise,well studied and well spoken are two requirements any man who takes it on himself to shepherd a flock should be concerned with. It is so easy for people to misunderstand a statement or to take a callous statement with a lot more emphasis or misunderstanding than it was intended.

One of the biggest problems is many pastors have not really been trained the total word and are instead teaching canned lines from their seminary.

Edited January 6, 2022 by Starise

[JohnD]

On 1/2/2022 at 1:06 PM, missmuffet said:

Romans 16:17 

Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.

 

I am seeing a lot of this on Worthy. 

 

Matthew 7:16

Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them.  For those who are such do not serve our Lord ^[Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.

We are responsible to share the true literal Word of God. We are not responsible for people's response to the good news. 

 

You and I have agreed on many things over the years, missmuffet. And we have disagreed on a few things. Which is a-okay.   We are meant to be individuals... but if you were to simply take a glance at the many divisions in the Body Christian... it would naturally be reflected in this forum.  

Jesus prayed no less than 3 times that we in the Body of Christ would be one as the Father and he are one (John 17).

What caused the perpetual division in the Church today?

The traditions of man (Mark 7:7 / Mark 7:13 / Matthew 16:23 / John 8:44).

False teachers claiming Jesus is the Christ and who deceive many Christ Jesus himself warned about, Didn't he?

Matthew 24:4–5 (NKJV)
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you.
5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.

Some take this as a David Koresh buffoonery claim to be Christ or Jesus, but looking around the whole landscape at the outlets of humanist traditions with a Jesus label on it... it appears Jesus was referring to getting his identity correct... but them proceeding to do the devil's work. 

Mark 7:7 (NKJV)
7 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’

Yes there are other Jesus' preached and other gospels and other spirits (Galatians 1:8-9 / 2 Corinthians 11:3-4).

But Matthew 24:4-5 speaks to those who at least get his identity correct. 

Mankind is susceptible and prone to the traditions of man which tickles their itching ears with the pomp and circumstance of religious dogma and ceremony... human reason overcomes truth with volumes untruth and schools of thought (consider how humanists [atheists] have bullied macro-evolution into the public schools and public square). We who hold to truth are almost apologetic about the fact that macro-evolution is untrue. 

How much moreso at the altar of God? The cross.

Our only inoculation / defense against human tradition is to be taught and guided by the Holy Spirit through the scriptures he wrote. And him alone. 

2 Peter 1:20–21 (NKJV)
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

All scripture is prophetic therefore this refers to all scripture.

• knowing this first,
• no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation
• for prophecy never came by the will of man,
• but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

And we are to know this first of all.  Yet who even considers this in the Churches today?

• the priesthood of every believer in Jesus (Revelation 1:6 / Revelation 5:10 / 1 Peter 2:9-13)
• that the Church is to exponentially evangelize (Matthew 28:19-20)
• spiritual gifts and personal ministry of all believers (1 Corinthians 12)

Just to name a few things that are not taught in Church service today.

Most heresies, false teachings (even here) include "I believe..." or "I think..."  or "my denomination teaches..."

Only the Holy Spirit interprets the Bible correctly. And he will...

John 16:13 (NKJV)
13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

 

[Heleadethme]

21 hours ago, Starise said:

I have thought at length about this now for awhile. Some churches have strict entry rules for a person to teach. Other churches are more loose in that regard. I guess in Canada church is being frowned upon entirely because of the COVID restrictions.

I taught when I was younger, then I entered into churches with designated people for those roles. Most of our Sunday School classes allow for lots of input though.

I don't necessarily want the position unless the Lord would open it up again and call me in that direction. I am serving in other areas of my church.

We are all teachers in one way or another whether we realize it or not. Everything we do and say teaches others about who we are.

Congregations all need leaders, but I agree, many of them are in paid positions and those men don't often see themselves as shepherding a new person gifted in these areas. In fact, I have seen the opposite where a pastor feels threatened and pushes the person out of the church. Sad but true. My exposure might not have been fairly balanced, as I'm sure this isn't the case in all churches. 

Pastoring  large church is a huge responsibility. Someone who doesn't strongly consider what they are saying up front and who their audience is can create all kinds of problems. Wise,well studied and well spoken are two requirements any man who takes it on himself to shepherd a flock should be concerned with. It is so easy for people to misunderstand a statement or to take a callous statement with a lot more emphasis or misunderstanding than it was intended.

One of the biggest problems is many pastors have not really been trained the total word and are instead teaching canned lines from their seminary.

Yes, there are problems aplenty in the churches at large.  All due to the flesh ultimately, which hardly anybody will search themselves or ask God to "search me and know me" and confront the flesh nature in ourselves.   And all flesh is the same. 

We need to have our minds renewed in the word to see how God wants things done as opposed to how it is being done in the churches.  He doesn't want us doing church the world's way (way of flesh).   The fruit of that is not good and the church doesn't get built up that way.  I know most of us can't imagine doing things any differently, we've all been influenced by the status quo and never seen anything else, but scripture can light our way, when we are willing to let God renew our minds on the matter.  And as always, His word is for whoever has ears to hear.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Heleadethme

[Starise]

21 hours ago, JohnD said:

Our only inoculation / defense against human tradition is to be taught and guided by the Holy Spirit through the scriptures he wrote. And him alone. 

Good Morning @JohnD

I appreciate these thoughts from the word. I had a couple of thoughts on what was written here. YES we are guided by the Spirit through the scriptures. STUDY. It is in seeking we find. Not in waiting for some kind of a revelation. I see it as a mutual relationship where we study and God reveals.

21 hours ago, JohnD said:

2 Peter 1:20–21 (NKJV)
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

All scripture is prophetic therefore this refers to all scripture.

• knowing this first,
• no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation
• for prophecy never came by the will of man,
• but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

And we are to know this first of all.  Yet who even considers this in the Churches today?

I think some scripture WAS prophetic because several prophesies have been fulfilled already. I'm trying to understand why it is said all scripture is prophetic? Surely not all of the whole bible is prophetic unless you are looking at the lineage of the Lord throughout scripture.The OT surely is prophetic of what was to come. Much of the NT has been fulfilled prophetically, much of it is still yet to be fulfilled.

knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation. If read at face value it should be easy peasy to interpret prophecy for anyone and we should all come away with the exact same take away. We know full well this is never the case.

Sure, If we look at only the very basics such as , Jesus will return for us all, then we would all agree with that statement. It's a very simple prophetic statement that leaves many details in the bible out and only requires a cursory agreement on the basics.

Why doesn't everyone see the particulars the same way if we are all led by the spirit and all filled with the spirit? There would seem to be more to this than what is initially read.

Many pastors and churches use this verse as a way to put forth their very narrow or even false understanding of certain texts in the word.

We could extrapolate- A. We are all believers. B. Our pastor is a believer who is spirit led, therefore anything he says is truth. Yet from the outside what they really have is a private and very narrow interpretation because someone jumped the tracks theologically , but they can take pride in the fact that the Lord has revealed these things to THEM.

We have loads of private and semi private interpretations of everything all over the place. They are 'private' in the sense that they are exclusive to certain denominations. To those denominations they aren't private. To much of the rest of christendom they are.

What this passage does indicate- Things should not be this way. We should all come away  with the same things making discussion on them unnecessary. 

Can you expand on why this is so?

[Starise]

22 minutes ago, Rosie1jack2pauline3 said:

@Starisejust a question Brother.

 

Was Jesus led through scripture, no he wasn’t,he had direct contact with God as do we, do you believe you can only be led by Christ through scripture?

Hi Rosie,

Jesus was unique in that He never sinned and He IS God. The relationship to the Father was not symbiotic it was integral, so I don't think we can compare Him to us in exactly the same way.

Right now men still struggle with our flesh and this often stands in the way. I think men can be led by Christ and the scripture. It is possible but it isn't often probable. Why do Christian men, including myself, change our views on the Bible as we mature in the Lord? Why doesn't God just shoot a beam into my mind and illuminate me to it all at once? For reasons sometimes unknown, the Lord chooses to gradually reveal things to us as we study.

The danger lies in men who think they know more than they really do who then proceed to instruct others, and even judge them about it ( what they don't really know). The more I know, the less I know and the glory goes to God.

If we all only stated what we really knew beyond any shadow of a doubt through the revelation of the Lord, I suspect much less would ever be said. 

The Christian life is about growth and all of us are growing at different rates. The New Christian who has never read the bible has a long way to go.The old Christian never stops learning.