Hell

[Marathoner]

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

And if we were truly in touch with our sin and shame we'd understand that here and now on this side of the grave. We'd be chronically stuck between wanting to end the turmoil and not wanting to face the end. We'd all kill ourselves in a misguided search for relief only to bring about the very thing we dread. I think it an act of grace we don't see God's grief in all its fulness. Likewise, we do not sufficiently fathom the infinite love spent a Calvary. WE do not know the debt so we cannot know the cost paid. All of sin, past present, and future for every single human who has ever drawn and will ever draw breath was laid on Christ. 

 

Isaiah 53:1-10
Who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?  .....He was despised and forsaken of men... and like one from whom men hide their face He was despised, and we did not esteem him.... He was pierced through for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities..... the LORD was pleased to crush him, putting him to grief... 

 

Isaiah 53:10-11
He will see His offspring, He will prolong his days, and the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in his hand.  As a result of the anguish of his soul, he will see it and be satisfied; By his knowledge the righteous one, My servant, will justify the many, as he will bear their iniquities.

 

1 Peter 1:20-21
For he was foreknown before the foundation of the world but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

 

If we do not rejoice we cry. 

Amen. The following pertains to personal testimony (topically relevant but not scriptural in nature). I'll share my understanding of what you're writing about above with those who are keeping abreast of this topic. 

Total depravity. I understand what this means from both the scriptural and personal perspectives, for without the agency of the Lord on our behalf we are utterly and hopelessly lost. Hence faith is the gift of God and salvation is of the Lord, not of ourselves. We have no occasion to boast unless we decide to boast about our weakness, that is. I get what the apostle of Jesus Christ was driving at.

An understanding of my total depravity, a merciful gift from God to one so undeserving, arrived when Lyme disease had robbed me of just about everything except for the life in this body. This tick-borne disease had progressed unchecked for a little over two years and in the opinion of a professional who evaluated me after I recovered, inflicted damage to portions of my brain. This was why I struggled to speak and why my thoughts were "all over the place." The regions of the brain involved in those activities were damaged by the pathogen. 

(As an aside I suffer from osteopenia --- a thinning of bone mass --- which is an enduring legacy of Lyme disease) 

To put it bluntly, the end was upon me 24 years after Christ called me from this world. 20 of those years were spent moving from one trial to the next --- a perfect disaster of tribulation --- always falling flat on my face, for not only did I not comprehend what it was the Lord required of me, I did not grasp the nature of this flesh and blood I struggled against.

I believed everything was supposed to be easy after my baptism. Marathoner was utterly, sadly, and completely mistaken. I learned otherwise the hard way. 

The end was upon me, so I decided to finish the job myself (the agony was unbearable), only I was not prepared for what happened when that attempt failed. Just like He did 24 years earlier the Lord came to me, only this time He visited me in my ruin. I was done.

My intent isn't to go on and on about my testimony, so I'll keep it brief: He opened time and space like a scroll, and I witnessed the measure of my depravity. I had forgotten about Him in my grief, turmoil, and pursuit of fleshly lust. It's difficult to articulate in words. 

I was in a place very similar to what you describe above, only my desire was to die and face the consequences. "I know You will cast me into the fire, Lord, but that is what I deserve!" I pleaded with Christ to destroy me because I had done nothing but fail Him ever since He chose me from this world. Grief and shame consumed me. 

This is how I also came to witness a glimmer of the unfathomable mercy, love, and grace of the One who purchased us at such great price. The Lord would never cast me into the fire; why would He do such a thing? He is not a man who repents of his words and deeds. The Lord did not snatch me from this world only to cast me into the lake of fire. 

I would not die but would live instead: and not just live, but live abundantly. I will never taste death. 

All of this was precisely what the Lord required of me and whatsoever the Lord desires, He shall receive. His ways are not our ways, and His thoughts are higher than our own.    

Am I thankful for what I endured? Yes, eternally so. I will never cease praising Christ for that work which He started in me, for He blessed me with an understanding which is only given by God Himself. 

End of testimonial.  

Edited March 16, 2022 by Marathoner

[Hobie_]

On 3/16/2022 at 11:57 AM, Josheb said:

I find that well said and do not find cause for dissent. If death is destroyed such that it no longer exists in eternity then, logically, so too is everything else tossed into the fiery lake. It may be a slow torturous process, like the rotting, decaying, burning refuse in a trash pit, but its end is ash and nothingness. I cannot think of much that could be more torturous than knowing decay in knowing estrangement from within the God-shaped hole yearning for one more minute, not knowing when that last minute comes, only to have its inevitable realization happen in horror and despair. Ongoing suffering would be better than that. 

And if we were truly in touch with our sin and shame we'd understand that here and now on this side of the grave. We'd be chronically stuck between wanting to end the turmoil and not wanting to face the end. We'd all kill ourselves in a misguided search for relief only to bring about the very thing we dread. I think it an act of grace we don't see God's grief in all its fulness. Likewise, we do not sufficiently fathom the infinite love spent a Calvary. WE do not know the debt so we cannot know the cost paid. All of sin, past present, and future for every single human who has ever drawn and will ever draw breath was laid on Christ. 

 

Isaiah 53:1-10
Who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?  .....He was despised and forsaken of men... and like one from whom men hide their face He was despised, and we did not esteem him.... He was pierced through for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities..... the LORD was pleased to crush him, putting him to grief... 

 

Isaiah 53:10-11
He will see His offspring, He will prolong his days, and the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in his hand.  As a result of the anguish of his soul, he will see it and be satisfied; By his knowledge the righteous one, My servant, will justify the many, as he will bear their iniquities.

 

1 Peter 1:20-21
For he was foreknown before the foundation of the world but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

 

If we do not rejoice we cry. 

The wicked will perish quickly, no question there...

[luigi]

Those who are outside (Revelation 21:8 & 22:15), where there is crying and gnashing of teeth (Luke 13:28), is where when the Lord comes like a thief, shall then remove His illumination from the faithless, leaving them in total darkness (Isaiah 60:2). This is spiritual hell, described as the lake of fire in Revelation 21:8.

Revelation 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Isaiah 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.

[Hobie_]

17 hours ago, Josheb said:

And "perish" means the same thing as what happens to death?

At the Second Death, perish is for eternity...

[Amigo42]

I think when people get to a conversation related to Biblical and spiritual truths, it's important to understand that the Bible while inspired by God is still written by man.  The Bible is a collection of books written by different people with different perspectives, however which resonate.

People should understand from the get go that only God is perfect.  We can't worship the Bible as perfect because it was not written by God directly.  The Bible is a mix of lessons, parables, allegories, history, and prophecy.

The concept of hell is greatly misunderstood and influenced by Greek mythology and hellenistic influences.  Sometimes Jesus spoke in parables and may have used terms or language that people already understood at that time.  It doesn't mean that everything was literal.

I think that people can get a lot from listening to near death experiences of people who have nearly crossed over but were brought back.  While, we can't put too much trust in these anecdotal experiences, overall, they tell a very interesting story.  Nearly all describe a God of overflowing love similar to how Jesus described God.  These people also inform that there is no hell in the literal sense but that all souls essentially return back to God.

I know for most Christians that doesn't sound like what they've learned growing up including myself, but I believe that the true nature of God might surprise people.  In the human form, everyone is subject to the influences of darkness and corruption in this world.  Would God really punish people for being put in an environment where they have placed in a circumstance of disadvantage.  It's like starting a tennis match and already starting off down one set.  God will be more merciful than we think.  He is good and he is just.