Hell

[Hobie_]

On 1/24/2022 at 5:33 PM, Josheb said:

The only place of the NT, besides the thrown of God, I am aware of where both men and angels go is the fiery lake. Is there another? 

Jude tells us the angels who rebelled have been held in bondage until judgment. Remember: the angels rebelled before humans. Lucifer prior to Adam. What kind of bondage is it that would hold an angel? And would such a bond work on men of flesh and blood? Both angels and men get tossed into the fiery lake. Has the premise of two different prisons but one single outcome for all prisoners been considered?

 

 

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I think its clear, that both angels and men will be destroyed by the fire. Sin will be no more..

Edited January 26, 2022 by Hobie_

[Starise]

On 1/24/2022 at 5:26 PM, Josheb said:

Do you mean, "How do we know for certain we have all of scripture?"? 

 

Because the Bible was compiled long after the scriptures were completed. Scripture and the Bible are not the same thing. The Bible is a record fo what was spoken/written by God and those He inspired to record it. The Bible is simply a bunch of manuscripts compiled long afterward. For example, we know from the two letters to Corinth that there are at least two other letters, maybe three. The missing letters are likely lost to time but who knows, maybe so cache of manuscripts dating closer the originals than the manuscripts we now possess wil be unearthed and maybe that cache will include the missing epistles. Maybe a copy (or the original?) of Matthew in Aramaic will be discovered? 

 

We have all of the Bible. We definitely do not have all the apostles wrote in the NT era. Maybe not all letters were inspired. Maybe God saw fit to lose what was lost. We have what we have. 

Well, I see these terms as synonymous to our discussion, but in making a difference here I think it was helpful to see the difference between scripture and what we call the bible. 

So you are agreeing by your above statements then that our 'bible' isn't all of it?

"We have what we have is much different than saying, "We have all of it".

"It" in this case is everything that was supposed to be in the originals.

[Starise]

On 1/24/2022 at 5:33 PM, Josheb said:

The only place of the NT, besides the thrown of God, I am aware of where both men and angels go is the fiery lake. Is there another? 

Either I wasn't clear or you could have misunderstood.

I am attempting in this thread to separate all other terms thought to be hell that in fact, are not really the place I described. A Jewish garbage dump where they burn trash is not something I wanted to accidentally include in the thread because it was confused for the place you mentioned. Hades and  Sheol is not hell. 

On 1/24/2022 at 5:33 PM, Josheb said:

Jude tells us the angels who rebelled have been held in bondage until judgment. Remember: the angels rebelled before humans. Lucifer prior to Adam. What kind of bondage is it that would hold an angel? And would such a bond work on men of flesh and blood? Both angels and men get tossed into the fiery lake. Has the premise of two different prisons but one single outcome for all prisoners been considered?

 

My understanding of this might be lacking. Some of the fallen angels are held in chains said to be in a mountain. Literally millions of others are still free on this earth. This place they are held is not hell.

I had not considered a dual holding place because the bible seems clear there is one final place.

[Starise]

On 1/24/2022 at 3:44 PM, Hobie_ said:

That has been something that I kept going over in my mind, and you have to remember that nothing is final till the judgement, as you are either put in the book of life and given eternal life, or you are put in another book and await the lake of fire where you get eternal death as the fire consumes what and who you are, and sin is no more. It was a hard concept for the people of that time to understand, to say nothing of today, and I think this was the easiest way to say, I will destroy sinners for eternity....

 I am in agreement with this view for a number of reasons. One would think since many of the lost see death as a finality, they wouldn't have much trouble seeing hell as the final finality. Those Buddhists will finally find their nirvana. The great big nothing, with demons laughing in the background. Here ya go, here's that final nothing you all sat transfixed to achieve for so long.

[missmuffet]

I think there will be many unbelievers who will be very surprised at where they are when they die.

[Starise]

52 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

I think there will be many unbelievers who will be very surprised at where they are when they die.

You mean when they have been raised again for judgment?

I don't know if a dead person can be surprised.

 

[missmuffet]

3 minutes ago, Starise said:

You mean when they have been raised again for judgment?

I don't know if a dead person can be surprised.

 

At the moment a person dies their soul goes to either to heaven or hades depending on if they were a believer in Jesus Christ. There are so many who do not believe in hades/hell. So if a person ends up in hades who did not believe in hell I am thinking they will be very surprised. They will be very conscious of where they are and the surroundings they are in. 

[Riverwalker]

To my understanding hell is the grave, the place the lost await judgment day, the outer darkness, and the torment is all self inflicted.  "Great weeping and gnashing of teeth"  is the ultimate sign of regret, meeting God and then being cast into the outer darkness, with the knowledge that you could have had all the peace, joy fulfillment et al....had you just not been so foolish 

But at the end of things, the lost are brought forth and judged. And if there name is not in the lambs book of life, they are tossed into the lake of fire (which was reserved for the devil and his angels) and meet the second death

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

His angles are reserved in ever lasting chains

 

Jude 6:⁶ And the angels who did not keep their ^[c]proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 

 

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Riverwalker

[missmuffet]

20 minutes ago, Riverwalker said:

To my understanding hell is the grave, the place the lost await judgment day, the outer darkness, and the torment is all self inflicted.  "Great weeping and gnashing of teeth"  is the ultimate sign of regret, meeting God and then being cast into the outer darkness, with the knowledge that you could have had all the peace, joy fulfillment et al....had you just not been so foolish 

But at the end of things, the lost are brought forth and judged. And if there name is not in the lambs book of life, they are tossed into the lake of fire (which was reserved for the devil and his angels) and meet the second death

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

His angles are reserved in ever lasting chains

 

Jude 6:⁶ And the angels who did not keep their ^[c]proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 

 

 

Hades and hell is eternal torment. It is a definate place. If a person dies without God and has had a horrible illness their suffering has just begun if they do not go to heaven. In fact it is worse than any suffering they have experienced on earth. 

Edited January 26, 2022 by missmuffet

[Alive]

12 minutes ago, Josheb said:

I suspect there will be many believers who will be very surprised at where others end up when they die. Hitler and Churchill may end up in exactly the same place. 

Yes--and it is a thought that I hold on to and remind myself of regularly as I interact with those not like myself.

:-)