Will "Heathens" Be Present In The Kingdom Seen In Zechariah 14?

[truth7t7]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, truth7t7.

But, there SHALL be a Millennium on this earth! No, the kingdom seen in Zechariah 14 is BOTH! See, Yeshua`s Kingdom is said to be eternal, not just a mere 1,000 years.

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

However, one still has Revelation 20:1-6 to incorporate into that:

Revelation 20:1-6 (KJV)

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The "1000 years" ("Millennium") is really about the time that the dragon is chained up and thrown into the pit with no sounded bottom to it. This messenger (English "angel" from Greek "aggelos" meaning "messenger") shuts up the pit and sets a seal upon him to keep him away from people for 1,000 years. THAT is to what the Millennium refers.

Thus, it's just the FIRST 1,000 years of the reign of God's Messiah Yeshua` ("God's Christ Jesus") we are reading about in verses 4-6, before the dragon is loosed and allowed his "little season."

They CONTINUE to reign with Him:

Revelation 22:1-5 (KJV)

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations (Greek: toon ethnoon = "the nations," genitive, plural form). 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

This passage is still part of the description of the New Jerusalem, begun in chapter 21; therefore, this is in the eternal state where the New Earth and its New Sky will be re-made, and the New Jerusalem will descend to the New Earth.

This word "ethnoon," or "ethnoi" in the subjective, nominative form, could also be translated as "Gentiles" or "heathen." The leaves of the Tree of Life will be for the healing of ALL the nations, children of Israel and all the other nations that survive.

1484 ethnos (eth'-nos). Probably from ethoo; a race (as of the same habit), i.e. A tribe; specially, a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually, by implication, pagan): 
-- Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

Regarding the rivers in Zechariah 14, there are TWO rivers seen here. From the mountainous region where the Temple will exist, there will flow one river heading west to the Mediterranean Sea and one river heading east to the Dead Sea.

Zechariah 14:8 (KJV)

8 And it shall be in that day, that living (flowing) waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea (the Dead Sea), and half of them toward the hinder sea (the Mediterranean Sea): in summer and in winter shall it be.

Ezekiel follows the river flowing toward the Dead Sea:

Ezekiel 47:1-12 (KJV)

1 Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood towardthe east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar. 2 Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.

3 And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ancles. 4 Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins. 5 Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over. 6 And he said unto me,

"Son of man, hast thou seen this?"

Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river. 7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other. 8 Then said he unto me,

"These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed. 9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh. 10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea (the Mediterranean Sea), exceeding many. 11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt. 12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine."

He wasn't shown the western river because there has always been a wadi there. It will just be a full-fledged river during the Millennium.

However, the eastern river goes to the Dead Sea and heals the land along the way, and heals much of the Dead Sea itself.

AFTER THE MILLENNIUM, after the release of the dragon, after he has deceived the nations once again, after the fire comes down, and after the Great White Throne Judgment with the Second Resurrection - the Resurrection of the Unjust, and after the New Earth and New Sky are re-formed from the burned-off hulk of the second earth and sky, and after the New Jerusalem has descended to the New Earth coming out of the New Sky, we see the River of the Water of Life flowing from the Throne of God and of the Lamb within this City.

This river is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH larger! It starts from the Throne of God and of the Lamb, and flows down the median of the Street of the City THROUGHOUT the City! Remember: This City is 1,380 MILES LONG, WIDE, AND HIGH (12,000 "furlongs" or stadia)! It CONSIDERABLY dwarfs the Old Jerusalem, even the Modern Jerusalem! It dwarfs the Land of Israel! If the seas were still there, it would stretch from the southern third of the Black Sea to the southern border of Egypt! Assuming the New Jerusalem might be centered at the Old Jerusalem, it would cover a third of the Mediterranean Sea and stretch to cover all of Syria, Jordan, much of Saudi Arabia, and parts of Iraq and Iran! This is no small city! And, when one realizes that the atmosphere is only about 200 miles thick before one comes to space, this City will TOWER over the atmosphere, even sitting upon the New Earth! It will WADE in our atmosphere, the New Sky!

Assuming that the Street of the City will run to the twelve gates of the City carrying the River along with it, this River will be divided into TWELVE rivers that will flow out onto the surface of the New Earth! Because these twelve gates are positioned with three on each of the four sides, they go out in all directions from the City! If we continue to speculate a little and assume that the gates will be equally spaced, then from each corner of the city to the center of the nearest gate on any side will be 230 miles. Between the centers of two adjacent gates on the same side of the city will be 460 miles.

So, along the southern wall of the City, one would see...

Corner <-- 230 miles --> Gate <-- 460 miles --> Gate <-- 460 miles --> Gate <-- 230 miles --> Corner.

Do you see the difference between Revelation 21-22 and Zechariah 14 & Ezekiel 37? They can't POSSIBLY be talking about the same river!

There is one time of resurrection for all, this takes place on the (Last Day) at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ

There are (Two) resurrections on this (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second) death resurrection has no power.

1.) (First) Resurrection To Life
2.) (Second) Resurrection To Damnation, The Second Death

(Revelation) 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

(John) 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

(John) 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(1 Corinthians) 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

(John) 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

[truth7t7]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, truth7t7.

But, there SHALL be a Millennium on this earth! No, the kingdom seen in Zechariah 14 is BOTH! See, Yeshua`s Kingdom is said to be eternal, not just a mere 1,000 years.

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

However, one still has Revelation 20:1-6 to incorporate into that:

Revelation 20:1-6 (KJV)

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The "1000 years" ("Millennium") is really about the time that the dragon is chained up and thrown into the pit with no sounded bottom to it. This messenger (English "angel" from Greek "aggelos" meaning "messenger") shuts up the pit and sets a seal upon him to keep him away from people for 1,000 years. THAT is to what the Millennium refers.

Thus, it's just the FIRST 1,000 years of the reign of God's Messiah Yeshua` ("God's Christ Jesus") we are reading about in verses 4-6, before the dragon is loosed and allowed his "little season."

They CONTINUE to reign with Him:

Revelation 22:1-5 (KJV)

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations (Greek: toon ethnoon = "the nations," genitive, plural form). 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

This passage is still part of the description of the New Jerusalem, begun in chapter 21; therefore, this is in the eternal state where the New Earth and its New Sky will be re-made, and the New Jerusalem will descend to the New Earth.

This word "ethnoon," or "ethnoi" in the subjective, nominative form, could also be translated as "Gentiles" or "heathen." The leaves of the Tree of Life will be for the healing of ALL the nations, children of Israel and all the other nations that survive.

1484 ethnos (eth'-nos). Probably from ethoo; a race (as of the same habit), i.e. A tribe; specially, a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually, by implication, pagan): 
-- Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

Regarding the rivers in Zechariah 14, there are TWO rivers seen here. From the mountainous region where the Temple will exist, there will flow one river heading west to the Mediterranean Sea and one river heading east to the Dead Sea.

Zechariah 14:8 (KJV)

8 And it shall be in that day, that living (flowing) waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea (the Dead Sea), and half of them toward the hinder sea (the Mediterranean Sea): in summer and in winter shall it be.

Ezekiel follows the river flowing toward the Dead Sea:

Ezekiel 47:1-12 (KJV)

1 Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood towardthe east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar. 2 Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.

3 And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ancles. 4 Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins. 5 Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over. 6 And he said unto me,

"Son of man, hast thou seen this?"

Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river. 7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other. 8 Then said he unto me,

"These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed. 9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh. 10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea (the Mediterranean Sea), exceeding many. 11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt. 12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine."

He wasn't shown the western river because there has always been a wadi there. It will just be a full-fledged river during the Millennium.

However, the eastern river goes to the Dead Sea and heals the land along the way, and heals much of the Dead Sea itself.

AFTER THE MILLENNIUM, after the release of the dragon, after he has deceived the nations once again, after the fire comes down, and after the Great White Throne Judgment with the Second Resurrection - the Resurrection of the Unjust, and after the New Earth and New Sky are re-formed from the burned-off hulk of the second earth and sky, and after the New Jerusalem has descended to the New Earth coming out of the New Sky, we see the River of the Water of Life flowing from the Throne of God and of the Lamb within this City.

This river is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH larger! It starts from the Throne of God and of the Lamb, and flows down the median of the Street of the City THROUGHOUT the City! Remember: This City is 1,380 MILES LONG, WIDE, AND HIGH (12,000 "furlongs" or stadia)! It CONSIDERABLY dwarfs the Old Jerusalem, even the Modern Jerusalem! It dwarfs the Land of Israel! If the seas were still there, it would stretch from the southern third of the Black Sea to the southern border of Egypt! Assuming the New Jerusalem might be centered at the Old Jerusalem, it would cover a third of the Mediterranean Sea and stretch to cover all of Syria, Jordan, much of Saudi Arabia, and parts of Iraq and Iran! This is no small city! And, when one realizes that the atmosphere is only about 200 miles thick before one comes to space, this City will TOWER over the atmosphere, even sitting upon the New Earth! It will WADE in our atmosphere, the New Sky!

Assuming that the Street of the City will run to the twelve gates of the City carrying the River along with it, this River will be divided into TWELVE rivers that will flow out onto the surface of the New Earth! Because these twelve gates are positioned with three on each of the four sides, they go out in all directions from the City! If we continue to speculate a little and assume that the gates will be equally spaced, then from each corner of the city to the center of the nearest gate on any side will be 230 miles. Between the centers of two adjacent gates on the same side of the city will be 460 miles.

So, along the southern wall of the City, one would see...

Corner <-- 230 miles --> Gate <-- 460 miles --> Gate <-- 460 miles --> Gate <-- 230 miles --> Corner.

Do you see the difference between Revelation 21-22 and Zechariah 14 & Ezekiel 37? They can't POSSIBLY be talking about the same river!

Zechariah 14:16, Who Will Be Left Of The Nations?

You will closely note, Zechariah 14:16 & Isaiah 4:3-4 are "Parallel" readings of the same event, as Isaiah gives a clear account of those who are left, those who are found in the book of life, the final judgement has passed, eternity has begun "After" The Day Of The Lord

You will closely note in Isaiah 4:4 below, Jerusalem will be purged by the spirit of (Judgement) & (Burning)

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Only The Righteous Are Left, The Book Of Life "Was" Opened (Every One That Is Written Among The Living)

Zechariah 14:16KJV
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Isaiah 4:3-4KJV
3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

Revelation 21:24-27KJV
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Edited January 25, 2022 by truth7t7

[Dennis1209]

16 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Brother, you cannot divorce verses from their context to make them mean something else. Here is the full context. Read it and you will see, if you are adept at grammar, that the "IF" is what will happen. Zechariah 14:12-19:

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. 13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour. 14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance. 15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

- Verse 12 starts the context - the people who will fight against Jerusalem
- Verses 12 to 13 records the manner of defeat of these armies
- Verse 14 indicates the Lord, Who is of Judah, fighting
- Verse 16 now swings to the SURVIVORS of this battle for Jerusalem
- Verse 17 defines the "IF" by staring with "And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, ... ."

What is said is that the survivors - "every ONE" of this great battle must travel from their Land, at the time of the Feast of Tabernacles, to Jerusalem to worship Christ of Judah. This they must do "year by year". This has implications:

• There will be survivors of Armageddon. That means that they are still men in their flesh
• These "survivors" are individuals of the Nations (since all nations were represented at Armageddon  - Rev.16:14-16)
• Egypt, nearest neighbor who was a world power, and who sent soldiers, must go up
• Egypt, and any nation whose soldiers do not go up will bring drought and plagues on their country
• The Feast of Tabernacles is ordained by the Law of Moses, therefore Israel will be under Law
• The Law remains UNTIL heaven and earth pass, therefore the Old Earth has not yet passed
• "Year by year" indicates that Christ's Kingdom ON EARTH is fixed for some years with "heathen" and men in the flesh as SUBJECTS of this Kingdom. Revelation 20 says 1,000 years. Literally, OR metaphorically, the Kingdom of Christ, with the Nations in their flesh (and having children) visiting Christ in Jerusalem, is a reality

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (Mt 5:18)

Morning there AdHoc,

Well said and I agree with your understanding. Just want to make a couple of comments:

Zech. 14:12, couldn't be a better description of the heat from a nuclear explosion.

Zech 14:16, I have thought and studied hard on. The nations and the world include us in this hemisphere and the America's. Two thirds of everything, or more, is going to be wiped out during the second half of the Tribulation. That would have to include modern technology, global communications, airliners, ocean transportation, and modern air and sea travel. 

The nations (representatives presumably) will be required to physically travel to Jerusalem annually, and that's a round trip that takes extended time, depending on the mode of transportation. It seems there would not be people with the skill, knowledge and ability, to pilot, maintain and service our modern speedy travel. Not to mention the production and supply chain to make them move. 

Without modern and speedy travel, how do these people and nations get to the other side of the planet, from our side of the hemisphere? 

One third of the earths trees and green grass is going to be burnt up. Is that localized to the Mediterranean Sea area, sporadic globally, or cover an entire hemisphere? Our hemisphere is roughly 1/3 of the globe's landmass. By the description, I get thought of a CME or massive solar flare striking earth? 

You ever ponder these thoughts?

[Retrobyter]

22 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

 

Revelation 20:1-6 isn't a Millennial Kingdom on this earth

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time On This Earth

Shalom, t7t7.

Okay, I was trying to type a response to your first post, but you've GLUTTED the thread with five more posts before I could get a word in edgewise! Either put them all in ONE post BEFORE you hit "Submit Reply," or Hit the ellipsis (...) in the upper right corner and choose "Edit" to add them to your first post.

It's going to take me a while to respond to all the posts!

 

Aw, sure they exist. You're just not seeing it. And, this "spiritual" stuff is just nonsense. You can't see it because you're using words that don't show it.

An "angel" is a "messenger." It MAY be a supernatural messenger, but it doesn't have to be one.
"Heaven" is the "sky." Yeshua` Himself used the word that way in Matthew 16:1-4.
"Devil" is a "Slanderer." This is what he is, not who he is.
"Satan" is an "Enemy." Same here. This is what he is, not who he is.
"Soul" is an "air-breathing creature." The only way you can find a "soul" is if the person hasn't died, yet, or he or she has been resurrected to new life.
The "dead" are those who are DEAD! They don't DO ANYTHING while they're dead!
"God" is the title for the ULTIMATE Being who lives in and beyond this Universe. He is the FATHER of our Lord - our Master.
"Christ" is the "Messiah," and the "Messiah" is the "One Anointed" to be king of Israel. That's what the word means! He is the SON of God, and He is the Representative for God as King.
His NAME is "Yeshua`" meaning "He shall save," "He shall deliver," or "He shall rescue."

There's nothing "SPIRITUAL" about these words!

22 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

This is because the Light of the World, the Sun of Righteousness, Yeshua`, will give off light the WHOLE ONE THOUSAND YEARS, and there won't BE any night! That makes it one VERY LONG day!

Again, nothing "spiritual" about that. He will LITERALLY GLOW, just as Moses did when he came down from Mount Sinai!

Quote

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Here's what he saw: He saw a messenger come down from the sky. He laid hold on the dragon - a lizard or reptile - the ORIGINAL SNAKE! That original serpent is who we call "the Slanderer (Devil)" and "the Enemy (Satan)."

He SAW the air-breathing bodies of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Yeshua` and for God's Word; they LIVED (were raised to life) and reigned with the Messiah a thousand years.

The rest of the dead people didn't get raised at this time; instead they would have to wait until after the 1,000 years finished.

The dead people who DID get raised to life at this time (as the Millennium started) were the FIRST Resurrection. Happy and specially chosen will be the one who has a part in the FIRST Resurrection! The second death will have no power over him or her, and they shall be priests of God and of His Messiah, and shall reign INDEED with Him for a thousand years.

This will be a LITERAL reign for a LITERAL 1,000 YEARS!

[truth7t7]

21 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, t7t7.

Okay, I was trying to type a response to your first post, but you've GLUTTED the thread with five more posts before I could get a word in edgewise! Either put them all in ONE post BEFORE you hit "Submit Reply," or Hit the ellipsis (...) in the upper right corner and choose "Edit" to add them to your first post.

It's going to take me a while to respond to all the posts!

 

Aw, sure they exist. You're just not seeing it. And, this "spiritual" stuff is just nonsense. You can't see it because you're using words that don't show it.

An "angel" is a "messenger." It MAY be a supernatural messenger, but it doesn't have to be one.
"Heaven" is the "sky." Yeshua` Himself used the word that way in Matthew 16:1-4.
"Devil" is a "Slanderer." This is what he is, not who he is.
"Satan" is an "Enemy." Same here. This is what he is, not who he is.
"Soul" is an "air-breathing creature." The only way you can find a "soul" is if the person hasn't died, yet, or he or she has been resurrected to new life.
The "dead" are those who are DEAD! They don't DO ANYTHING while they're dead!
"God" is the title for the ULTIMATE Being who lives in and beyond this Universe. He is the FATHER of our Lord - our Master.
"Christ" is the "Messiah," and the "Messiah" is the "One Anointed" to be king of Israel. That's what the word means! He is the SON of God, and He is the Representative for God as King.
His NAME is "Yeshua`" meaning "He shall save," "He shall deliver," or "He shall rescue."

There's nothing "SPIRITUAL" about these words!

This is because the Light of the World, the Sun of Righteousness, Yeshua`, will give off light the WHOLE ONE THOUSAND YEARS, and there won't BE any night! That makes it one VERY LONG day!

Again, nothing "spiritual" about that. He will LITERALLY GLOW, just as Moses did when he came down from Mount Sinai!

Here's what he saw: He saw a messenger come down from the sky. He laid hold on the dragon - a lizard or reptile - the ORIGINAL SNAKE! That original serpent is who we call "the Slanderer (Devil)" and "the Enemy (Satan)."

He SAW the air-breathing bodies of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Yeshua` and for God's Word; they LIVED (were raised to life) and reigned with the Messiah a thousand years.

The rest of the dead people didn't get raised at this time; instead they would have to wait until after the 1,000 years finished.

The dead people who DID get raised to life at this time (as the Millennium started) were the FIRST Resurrection. Happy and specially chosen will be the one who has a part in the FIRST Resurrection! The second death will have no power over him or her, and they shall be priests of God and of His Messiah, and shall reign INDEED with Him for a thousand years.

This will be a LITERAL reign for a LITERAL 1,000 YEARS!

Thanks for the response, I Disagree

No literal Kingdom on this earth, with mortal humans present is seen in Revelation 20:1-6, it's in the Lords eternal spiritual realm 100%, where no literal time exists

Edited January 25, 2022 by truth7t7

[missmuffet]

On 1/24/2022 at 6:38 AM, truth7t7 said:

Many claim Zechariah 14 is a Millennial Kingdom on this earth, and they use "Heathens" as a disclaimer that this represents the Eternal Kingdom

The scripture clearly states "If" the family of Egypt go not up, they will be declared "Heathen"

No place does it state heathens are present as many claim, it's stating a condition "If" it were to happen

Look at that big word "If" it cancels any argument of heathens being present, it hasn't happened as many claim

Zechariah 14:18-19KJV

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Only true believers will enter the 1000 year millennium but they will not have glorified bodies. They will go into the millennium with bodies like we have now. They will marry and have children. Eventually many of these humans will turn against God and at the end of the 1000 year millennium when Satan is unbound they will join him and have a war against God. Ofcourse they will lose. 

[truth7t7]

3 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

Only true believers will enter the 1000 year millennium but they will not have glorified bodies. They will go into the millennium with bodies like we have now. They will marry and have children. Eventually many of these humans will turn against God and at the end of the 1000 year millennium when Satan is unbound they will join him and have a war against God. Ofcourse they will lose. 

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

[missmuffet]

17 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Suit yourself. That is not what the Bible tells us. 

[truth7t7]

10 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

Suit yourself. That is not what the Bible tells us. 

I disagree, it's exactly what the bible teaches

Jesus returns in fire and final judgement, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

[AdHoc]

5 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Morning there AdHoc,

Well said and I agree with your understanding. Just want to make a couple of comments:

Zech. 14:12, couldn't be a better description of the heat from a nuclear explosion.

Zech 14:16, I have thought and studied hard on. The nations and the world include us in this hemisphere and the America's. Two thirds of everything, or more, is going to be wiped out during the second half of the Tribulation. That would have to include modern technology, global communications, airliners, ocean transportation, and modern air and sea travel. 

The nations (representatives presumably) will be required to physically travel to Jerusalem annually, and that's a round trip that takes extended time, depending on the mode of transportation. It seems there would not be people with the skill, knowledge and ability, to pilot, maintain and service our modern speedy travel. Not to mention the production and supply chain to make them move. 

Without modern and speedy travel, how do these people and nations get to the other side of the planet, from our side of the hemisphere? 

One third of the earths trees and green grass is going to be burnt up. Is that localized to the Mediterranean Sea area, sporadic globally, or cover an entire hemisphere? Our hemisphere is roughly 1/3 of the globe's landmass. By the description, I get thought of a CME or massive solar flare striking earth? 

You ever ponder these thoughts?

Very valid thoughts. I have thought hard on these too. Just being a king over a city is daunting. After the chaos of the Great Tribulation will I have engineers to do the sewerage? The Lord has seen fit to make these prophesies and He is also aware that they create potential problems. I also think that they will have to be solved using our faculties. I'm not one who turns to "spiritual solutions". Man is man and it is his duty to subdue the earth. We will have power and authority, but we have to solve the problems ourselves.

My answer is that I speculate (for it is not in scripture) that of the remainder of men, there will be enough talent over to overcome these problems. We know one thing for sure. The weapons factories will turn their production to agricultural machines for the great harvests (Isa.2:4, Mic.4:3). But let me also be honest. The Mohammedans have been pilgrimage-ing to Mecca for centuries. If the Great God of the universe says get yourself to Jerusalem ... or else, you can be sure man will soon have his travel down to a fine art. The drought, plagues and the "rule of the rod of iron" will do their work. An empty belly works wonders, and seeing your family at an empty table will shift men into action - I do believe.