Angels

[Selah7]

3 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Daniel 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

It'll be just like it was before the flood in the days of Noah, when "they," the fallen angels, descended upon the earth and seduced women.

It's impossible to mix iron and clay—communism and Christianity will never blend.  I believe that as a result, the New World Order will suffer a deadly wound.  I also believe it will be the Elect who will cause this to happen.  Just my opinion, though.

[Anne2]

11 hours ago, Starise said:

The word comes from  Greek translations of the Bible . The meaning for the word is messenger, however that word has a stronger meaning in other languages. A highly regarded or high ranking messenger. Since we know one of their primary functions are as helpers in various capacities, I believe we need to dig into more 

Angels are a whole class of beings that has sub classes with different appearances, different functions and different operations within God's kingdom.

Some descriptions of angels in the bible affirm they can look just like human beings when they come into our realm from the spiritual realm. There are sometimes debates on whether or not the Bible is describing God, angels or men at different times when a man or men are mentioned.Examples include Jacob wrestling with the angel in Genesis 32: 22-32 and the three 'men' who visited Moses in Genesis 18.

We know the angels who visited Sodom were mistaken for men by the residents. I think we can say with certainty that God also extends Himself into seeming human form at times or maybe even extends Himself through  His other creations. I see it similar to the way a Christian can be "filled" with the Holy Spirit for His work. God can dedicate other purposes for His work by literally extending Himself through other beings like a hand in a glove. While we don't see this happening very often in the physical realm, we know it happens in the spiritual realm. It may be happening more in the physical realm than we realize because it is so well cloaked we don't notice it.

By far the angels  steadfast for the purposes of Yahweh are greater in number and force than the angels of the other side who fell away. If we think about the logistics of it we see the good angels are at  much great advantage for obvious reasons.

• Fallen angels left their main home, they left the place they once worked out of. They left their support structures so they had to re organize in a much less desirable location. Remember they were 'kicked' from their heavenly abode. They did not go willingly.
• Fallen angels had to attempt to thwart the plans of the Lord in a vain last ditch effort to save themselves from utter destruction.
• Fallen angels are in a battle that has already been decided and won. Whether they are all aware of it or not is debatable since they are still fighting maybe with a glimmer of false hope they will succeed.

This is where in the end of their reasoning, the end justifies the means, so fallen angels are now resorting to some of the most odd and unorthodox ways to wreak havoc on earth including misrepresenting themselves to blinded men in order to accomplish their goals, sharing knowledge that was probably not intended to be known by men until later. This has all amounted to a mountain of lies intended to use men as shills for their evil purposes which includes the destruction of men. Not to be confused with demons. These are often high order angels who fell and have dedicated themselves to the last war they will ever fight.

While it's these fallen ones that often get much of the attention, it is undeserved and I think we would do better to not be led into their evil world at all for any reason EVER. The good angels are the most effective for our well being and God's myriad of other purposes He uses them for. While  angels help men. It ain't all about us as they have other duties.

The idea that all men have at least one guardian angel isn't something you will find in the bible. This is not to say we as men are not protected many times by them. In fact, the bible seems to say we are all observed by a heavenly host. That one should really put us on our toes!

I have to ask a few questions when I see certain things that originate in the spiritual realm and end up as a physical manifestations. I tend to think that maybe the fallen angels are taking ideas and concepts that were heavenly and attempting to adapt them to their purposes. They have the tools they took from heaven but they are re purposing them. Let's take the Babylonian mystery religion significance of the pyramid. I'm not so sure the pyramid wasn't something that was originally a heaven concept. I think there may be some significance to the pyramid in heaven and in creation. The fallen ones want to say the all seeing eye is their God Lucifer, Satan or ha satan. They don't call him that. That concept could be an original heaven concept hey robbed from Yahweh. How about all of the New Age Gobbledy Gook  about 'vibrations' 'frequencies' and dimensions? Once again I think this is 'them' attempting to ape something superior that may have had concepts in God's circles. These things can only be effective in a limited way for them and for men because they are misusing it without God's blessing.

The side we are mainly concerned with, they follow the rules laid our for them. These are followers of Yahweh same as us.

What would Pharoah's  Wise men, sorcerers, and magicians be?

Ex 7:10  And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent.
11  Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
 

And again...

22  And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said.

Ex 8:7  And the magicians did so with their enchantments, and brought up frogs upon the land of Egypt.

How did they do this?

Enchantments

03858 להט lahat lah’-hat

from 03857; n m; [BDB-529b] {See TWOT on 1081 @@ "1081a"}

AV-flaming 1, enchantment 1; 2

1) flame (of an angelic sword) 

These two times used... 

But they did what Moses did several times....By whatever that is?

Ge 3:24  So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming <03858> sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Ex 7:11  Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments <03858>. 

Until this

18  And the magicians did so with their enchantments to bring forth lice, but they could not: so there were lice upon man, and upon beast.
19  Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
 

Edited February 25, 2022 by Anne2

[DignifiedResponse]

3 hours ago, Starise said:

the recurring subject here off and on that bad angels did bad things with women.

That is impossible according to scripture, because of the angels (fallen or unfallen) very flesh nature, which differs than "the seed of Abraham".  The created angels do not have the same flesh as mankind.  They have "strange" (eteras or hetero, foreign) "flesh" (sarkos).  They have "celestial" (epourania, where sun, moon and stars are) "bodies" (swmata) which are non "terrestrial" (epigeia, of this earth/world).

Created angels are never said to contain "seed" or have "issue", as the children of "this world" have.

Created angels are never said to be able to "marry" or be given in "marriage", be able to "multiply", have "offspring", or "be fruitful", or able to "know" each other (among themselves) or mankind.

According to scripture, "kind" only brings forth "kind" and created Heavenly host "kind" are not the same as man"kind" to be able to "bare" between them.

Satan and his hosts are limited to what can be directly and indirectly done to mankind.  This is seen from Genesis 1-3 (3:15) and since Calvary (Revelation 12:10; Romans 5:6).

Devil's can influence others (through possession, which is mind upon mind) among mankind to rape, etc, but they themselves cannot do so.  They can even cause people to believe (through affecting the mind and thus senses) they are experiencing such things.  The can even affect mankind through vision and audio (sight, sound).

A child of the devil is not one of flesh and body, but is one of mind and heart (see Judas).

[DignifiedResponse]

8 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Angels do not need wings to fly they are spiritual beings and not bound by the laws of the physical universe. 

That is incorrect.  The created angels are physical beings with a spiritual aspect as mankind does, meaning a heart/mind.  Please see my several previous posts in this thread.

A spiritual being does not mean spirit being and spiritual body does not mean spirit body (a contradiction in terms).  Spiritual simply means able to contemplate and think, a rational being (with intelligence capable of contemplating God) of flesh and bones.

[DignifiedResponse]

10 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

There was war in Heaven:

Yes, it began with "polemos", a war of words and ideas, which eventually led to physical expulsion.

Lucifer was a trafficker of ideology of himself, which used lies and deceit.  He 'campaigned' against the Son (aka Jesus) through insinuation, doubt, intimidation, fear.

[DignifiedResponse]

11 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

The Lord is omnipresent,

Just a question for clarification please:

When you say, "The Lord is omnipresent", do you mean through His omniscience (as Psalms 139 teaches), or do you mean in a pantheistic or panentheistic way, where God is in tree, rock, saint and sinner?; And if the latter, can you explain Revelation 3:20 in that light?, Thank you.

Edited February 25, 2022 by DignifiedResponse
spelling

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Starise.

In keeping with the spirit of checking the Hebrew for the meaning of particular words, one should also investigate the meaning of "cherub" and its plural form "cherubim." Actually, the Hebrew is the word "k'ruwV," pronounced "keh-ROOV."

Strong's gives us this entry:

3742 kruwV (ker-oob') [sic]. An angelic being
-- cherub, (plural) cherubims.

(One thing to remember about Strong's is that the writer(s) didn't know about the "vet," the undotted "bet." When there is an undotted "bet," it doesn't have the "b" sound; it has a "V" sound, as in "veteran.")

The plural of this word is "kruwViym," pronounced "keh-roo-VEEM," spelled "koph-reish-waw-Vet-yod-mem," although often written "cherubim."

Well, Strong's dictionary doesn't help much. However, there's a comparison that helps us understand what a "kruwV" looks like:

We have two passages in Ezekiel that give us a better understanding:

Ezekiel 1:1-14 (KJV)

1 Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I was among the captives by the river of Chebar, that the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God. 2 In the fifth day of the month, which was the fifth year of king Jehoiachin's captivity, 3 The word of the LORD came expressly unto Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, in the land of the Chaldeans by the river Chebar; and the hand of the LORD was there upon him.

4 And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire. 5 Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man. 6 And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings. 7 And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass. 8 And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings. 9 Their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward. 10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle. 11 Thus were their faces: and their wings were stretched upward; two wings of every one were joined one to another, and two covered their bodies. 12 And they went every one straight forward: whither the spirit was to go, they went; and they turned not when they went. 13 As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of lamps: it went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning. 14 And the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of a flash of lightning.

Ezekiel 10:1-13 (KJV)

1 Then I looked, and, behold, in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubims there appeared over them as it were a sapphire stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne. 2 And he spake unto the man clothed with linen, and said,  

"Go in between the wheels, even under the cherub, and fill thine hand with coals of fire from between the cherubims, and scatter them over the city."

And he went in in my sight.

3 Now the cherubims stood on the right side of the house, when the man went in; and the cloud filled the inner court. 4 Then the glory of the LORD went up from the cherub, and stood over the threshold of the house; and the house was filled with the cloud, and the court was full of the brightness of the LORD'S glory. 5 And the sound of the cherubims' wings was heard even to the outer court, as the voice of the Almighty God when he speaketh.

6 And it came to pass, that when he had commanded the man clothed with linen, saying, Take fire from between the wheels, from between the cherubims; then he went in, and stood beside the wheels. 7 And one cherub stretched forth his hand from between the cherubims unto the fire that was between the cherubims, and took thereof, and put it into the hands of him that was clothed with linen: who took it, and went out. 8 And there appeared in the cherubims the form of a man's hand under their wings.

9 And when I looked, behold the four wheels by the cherubims, one wheel by one cherub, and another wheel by another cherub: and the appearance of the wheels was as the colour of a beryl stone. 10 And as for their appearances, they four had one likeness, as if a wheel had been in the midst of a wheel. 11 When they went, they went upon their four sides; they turned not as they went, but to the place whither the head looked they followed it; they turned not as they went. 12And their whole body, and their backs, and their hands, and their wings, and the wheels, were full of eyes round about, even the wheels that they four had. 13 As for the wheels, it was cried unto them in my hearing, O wheel. 14 And every one had four faces: the first face was the face of a cherub, and the second face was the face of a man, and the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.

When we compare the faces, we have ...

Chapter 1: man, lion, ox, and eagle.
Chapter 10: cherub, man, lion, eagle.

man = man,
lion = lion,
eagle = eagle, but
ox = cherub, which was their FIRST face in chapter 10!

Now, look at a few other components:

"their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot."

So, the kruwV has ox-like features, but "they had the likeness of a man" with four wings, "their wings were stretched upward; two wings of every one were joined one to another, and two covered their bodies."

An interesting point is ...

Ezekiel 10:12 (KJV)

12 And their whole body, and their backs, and their hands, and their wings, and the wheels, were full of eyes round about, even the wheels that they four had.

I don't see this as real eyes. The Hebrew letter "`ayin" means "eye." The Hebrew letter looks like this: ע . Now, picture an area full of `eeyaniym (the plural of `ayin found in this verse):

עעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעע
 עעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעע
עעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעע
 עעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעעע

This may even be scrunched together more than shown here. They could be a PATTERN or a way to describe feathers or scales or metal overlayed throughout.

[Retrobyter]

4 hours ago, Golds and Blues said:

The etymology conflation of serpent(ie snake) to seraphim is incorrect.

Seraphim have a form similar to humans with 2 hands, 2 feet, and a face.

Serpents in hebrew context of use in Torah and prophets is a word study that deserves further study. Specifically the distinction between nachash (ie serpent) and seraf. And a further study of what moshe did in comparison to what was initially instructed. 

Blessings Always

Shalom, Golds and Blues.

A saaraaf  is not the same as a naachaash.

The naachaash is what tempted Chavah ("Eve") in Gan-`Eden. It may have had legs at one point, rather like a theropod or even a sauropod, but it lost those legs and degenerated to a legless snake. And, THIS is the "dragon" in Revelation, the "original serpent."

The saaraaf is a "fiery serpent," which may refer to its poison, but it is also a "FLYING serpent" with six wings. All animals have "faces"; these creatures don't have to have a "human" face. They do indeed have hands and feet, but where does it say that these were HUMAN hands and feet? This is more than an adder or an asp. One might even recognize this as what constitutes a type of "dragon" before they became extinct on earth. 

But, who but God knows? These are merely conjecture, after all.

[Retrobyter]

53 minutes ago, DignifiedResponse said:

The word "aggelos" (koine Greek) or "mal'ak" (Hebrew), by which comes the English "angel", simply means "messenger, ambassador, one with a message or word".

That's all it means.  It doesn't mean created or uncreated, heavenly or earthly, human or non.   It just means 'messenger'.

In scripture uncreated and eternal Godhead is associated with the words (whether Father, Son or Holy Ghost).

In scripture heavenly created beings from the unfallen worlds are associated with it.

In scripture earthly mankind is associated with it (from King, Priest, Prophet, common person).

In scripture lesser created earthly beings are associated with it.

In scripture non living elements are associated with it.

Shalom, DignifiedResponse.

I really like your recognition that these words mean "messenger."

This makes me think of 1 Peter 1.

1 Peter 1:3-12 (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: 8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; WHICH THINGS THE ANGELS DESIRE TO LOOK INTO.

I've heard SO many theories based upon this phrase! And, I'm reminded of a song, that says in the chorus,

Holy, Holy, Is What the Angels Sing;
And I expect to help them make
the courts of Heaven ring:
But when I sing redemption's story,
They will fold their wings.
For angels never felt the joys
That our salvation brings.

There's much speculation based upon 1 Peter 1:12 and the song which only the 144,000 can learn in Revelation 14:3:

Revelation 14:1-3 (KJV)

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty andfour thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

HOWEVER, there's an easier understanding of 1 Peter 1:12:

When one understands that an "angel," transliterated from the Greek word "aggelos," means a "messenger," we have the added benefit to say that they are the messengers of God. But, isn't it true that prophets are HUMAN messengers of God, sent by God to His people to foretell truth to them about the future?

Look back to verses 10 and 11!

"Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."

This, for me, explains the last phrase of verse 12. These were the HUMAN messengers of God, the PROPHETS, who desired to look into the things of which they prophesied! They just hadn't happened, yet, in their lifetimes.

Many of the "angels," like John the Baptist, were HUMAN messengers, not supernatural beings.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Starise.

In addition, when looking at the entry for "keruwV" in BibleHub.com, one will find...

Strong's Hebrew 3742
91 Occurrences

And, they are listed out thusly. I'm going to add information after each one.

ḵə·ru·ḇîm — 3 Occ. (the plural of kruwV with a dotted kaph)
hak·kə·rūḇ — 15 Occ. (the definite article prefix, ha-, is added to the singular)
hak·kə·ru·ḇîm — 40 Occ. (the def. article prefix is added to the plural)
kə·rūḇ — 7 Occ. (the singular of kruwV)
kə·ru·ḇîm — 15 Occ. (the plural of kruwV)
lak·kə·rūḇ — 2 Occ. (the prefix la- a combination of l- meaning "to" and ha- meaning "the" is added to the singular of kruwV)
lak·kə·ru·ḇîm — 4 Occ. (the prefix la- meaning "to the" is added to the plural of kruwV)
liḵ·rūḇ — 1 Occ. (the prefix "l-" meaning "to" is added to the singular of kruwV)
ū·ḵə·rūḇ- — 2 Occ. (the prefix "uw-" meaning "and" is added to the singular of kruwV)
ū·ḵə·rū·ḇîm — 1 Occ. (the prefix "uw-" meaning "and" is added to the plural of kruwV)
wə·hak·kə·ru·ḇîm — 1 Occ. (the prefixes "w-" meaning "and" and "ha-" meaning "the" are added to the plural of kruwV)

So, all these words are based upon the same word "kruwV" although with prefixes attached to add the definite article, the connective "and," and the preposition "to."

I hope this takes a bit of the mystery out of the entry for those who aren't very familiar with how Hebrew works.

Edited February 25, 2022 by Retrobyter
to fix a spelling