Essential Biblical Eschatology

[Last Daze]

While our understanding of biblical eschatology isn't a salvation issue, God has foretold us of future events for a reason (Matthew 24:25) and its not a subject we should ignore.  Knowing ahead of time what to expect will help us in discerning truth from error.  While we may see the imagery, allegories, and details differently, there is a framework of understanding that's common throughout the different views of biblical eschatology.  The following are what I see as future events that are essential to that understanding:

• The Return of Christ - Acts 1:9-11 states that Jesus will return in the same manner that He ascended.  In Matthew 24:27 Jesus tells us that His coming will be very attention getting.  Revelation 1:7 states that every eye will see Him when He returns.  In 1 Corinthians 15:23 Paul says that those who are Christ's are made immortal when He returns.  The day of Christ's return is still future and is the focal point of biblical eschatology.
• The Great Tribulation - Jesus says in Matthew 24:21 that when the abomination of desolation is standing in the holy place that there will be a time of tribulation worse than the world has ever seen or ever will.  Daniel also references this time in Daniel 12:1 and goes on to say in verse seven that it will last for a time, times, and half a time which is commonly understood to be three and one-half years.  Given the scope of the flood in the days of Noah, nothing worse than that has occurred since the time of Christ so this event is still future.
• The Man of Sin - Paul tells us in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 that when Christ returns, He will bring an end to the man of sin, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and false signs and wonders.  Daniel 7:21-22 describes that event and adds that the man of sin is waging war against the saints and prevailing.  This is the same thing we read about in Revelation 13:7 and confirmed in Revelation 7:14.  According to Revelation 13:5 and Daniel 7:25, the man of sin is given authority to act for 42 months, the same duration as the great tribulation.

The return of Christ is future.  The great tribulation is future as is the man of sin's war against the saints during that time.  Whether there's a seven year agreement or rebuilt temple coming, or whether this country invades that one will all work itself out.  It may be fun to discuss but don't neglect the weightier matters.  Jesus tells us to be ready and on the alert for His return and not to be misled by anyone.  If they persecuted Him, they will persecute us.  Prepare for it and endure to the end.  This world is not our home.

[WilliamL]

2 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Jesus says in Matthew 24:21 that when the abomination of desolation is standing in the holy place that there will be a time of tribulation worse than the world has ever seen or ever will.  Daniel also references this time in Daniel 12:1 and goes on to say in verse seven that it will last for a time, times, and half a time which is commonly understood to be three and one-half years.

While I agree with all of your essential points, in this specific point I do not.

Daniel 12, as well as the rest of the book, is solely concerned with Israel. Daniel was shown nothing about the Church. The 1260 days/42 months relate to the judgment of Israel, not the Church. While both Israel and Church enter the same time of Great Tribulation, the "time of Jacob's trouble" extends well past it. Whereas the Church is raptured much earlier. The appointed number of days that they do equally share in are the 1290 days of Daniel 12:11, which precede the Tribulation, and end at the Abomination of Desolation.

Explained in much more detail here:

30. The 1260 Days

Describes where in the sequence of End Time events the 1260 days/3½ times/42 months prophecies of Daniel 7 and 12 and Revelation 11-12-13 will be fulfilled, what will happen in those days, and how they will end.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1449-the-1260-days/

[AdHoc]

5 hours ago, Last Daze said:

While our understanding of biblical eschatology isn't a salvation issue, God has foretold us of future events for a reason (Matthew 24:25) and its not a subject we should ignore.  Knowing ahead of time what to expect will help us in discerning truth from error.  While we may see the imagery, allegories, and details differently, there is a framework of understanding that's common throughout the different views of biblical eschatology.  The following are what I see as future events that are essential to that understanding:

• The Return of Christ - Acts 1:9-11 states that Jesus will return in the same manner that He ascended.  In Matthew 24:27 Jesus tells us that His coming will be very attention getting.  Revelation 1:7 states that every eye will see Him when He returns.  In 1 Corinthians 15:23 Paul says that those who are Christ's are made immortal when He returns.  The day of Christ's return is still future and is the focal point of biblical eschatology.
• The Great Tribulation - Jesus says in Matthew 24:21 that when the abomination of desolation is standing in the holy place that there will be a time of tribulation worse than the world has ever seen or ever will.  Daniel also references this time in Daniel 12:1 and goes on to say in verse seven that it will last for a time, times, and half a time which is commonly understood to be three and one-half years.  Given the scope of the flood in the days of Noah, nothing worse than that has occurred since the time of Christ so this event is still future.
• The Man of Sin - Paul tells us in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 that when Christ returns, He will bring an end to the man of sin, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and false signs and wonders.  Daniel 7:21-22 describes that event and adds that the man of sin is waging war against the saints and prevailing.  This is the same thing we read about in Revelation 13:7 and confirmed in Revelation 7:14.  According to Revelation 13:5 and Daniel 7:25, the man of sin is given authority to act for 42 months, the same duration as the great tribulation.

The return of Christ is future.  The great tribulation is future as is the man of sin's war against the saints during that time.  Whether there's a seven year agreement or rebuilt temple coming, or whether this country invades that one will all work itself out.  It may be fun to discuss but don't neglect the weightier matters.  Jesus tells us to be ready and on the alert for His return and not to be misled by anyone.  If they persecuted Him, they will persecute us.  Prepare for it and endure to the end.  This world is not our home.

My 2 cents worth.

It is to be observed that the bulk of prophecy is directed toward Israel. The Church is not revealed in the Old Testament. Looking back we can see types and shadows, but the prophets did not speak of the Church. In the New Testament we have the grand prophecies of Christ's return and the issuing in of the Kingdom (out) of Heaven (NOT the Kingdom IN Heaven). The establishing of this Kingdom on earth was already prophesied by Daniel (Chapter 2) and through various prophecies concerning Israel, we can gain a rough time frame as the end of the Church age coincides with the restoration of Israel (Act.15:14-16). The bulk of the prophecies aimed at the Church address is MORAL condition. Why?

The answer is that the Church is a company of men who live by FAITH. They must believe and and act WITHOUT SIGNS. We Christians must approach the Coming of Jesus as a truth that could happen at any time. Not because we are unlearned in scripture, but because a man who keeps himself ready at all times is going to be a sure testimony for Christ before the fallen world. Paul and Peter were told that they would die before Christ returned. It was predicted to the Church that some them would "fall asleep IN the Lord" as depicted by the parable of the ten Virgins. But Paul, writing to the saints in Thessaloniki, prayed in Chapter 5 (1st letter) that the Lord would allow them to be "whole" at His coming. And a whole man is one whose body, spirit and soul are still joined - that is, a LIVING man (v.23). It is God's wisdom to tell of His Son's Coming, but not to divulge the date.

The good Christian will be a student of eschatology because by studying Israel, he can know the signs of times. But he will equally be aware that his Lord may return unannounced at any time. The call to the Church is not EVENTS. It is "WATCH"!

 

[Last Daze]

On 3/8/2022 at 2:12 PM, WilliamL said:

Daniel 12, as well as the rest of the book, is solely concerned with Israel.

On 3/8/2022 at 5:47 PM, AdHoc said:

It is to be observed that the bulk of prophecy is directed toward Israel.

I realize that what one person deems essential, another may not, and vice-versa.  The role that "Israel" plays in eschatology is often debated, usually as it pertains to the spiritual or natural understanding of the term.  I'm not a proponent of separating OT believers from NT believers as some dispensationalists are.  The one passage that I see as addressing both natural and spiritual Israel is found in Revelation 12.

• So the dragon was enraged with the woman [natural], and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus [spiritual].  Revelation 12:17

 

 

[Marilyn C]

On 3/9/2022 at 4:19 AM, Last Daze said:

While our understanding of biblical eschatology isn't a salvation issue, God has foretold us of future events for a reason (Matthew 24:25) and its not a subject we should ignore.  Knowing ahead of time what to expect will help us in discerning truth from error.  While we may see the imagery, allegories, and details differently, there is a framework of understanding that's common throughout the different views of biblical eschatology.  The following are what I see as future events that are essential to that understanding:

• The Return of Christ - Acts 1:9-11 states that Jesus will return in the same manner that He ascended.  In Matthew 24:27 Jesus tells us that His coming will be very attention getting.  Revelation 1:7 states that every eye will see Him when He returns.  In 1 Corinthians 15:23 Paul says that those who are Christ's are made immortal when He returns.  The day of Christ's return is still future and is the focal point of biblical eschatology.
•  

Hi Last Daze,

Always interesting to talk to you. Now I do believe that when someone starts a journey they should know where they are going. They may not know all the points along the way but definitely they should know where they end up. Thus to me eschatology, although a study of end times does show where we are going. And today`s views are mainly `on earth or in heaven.` Thus it is very important to know what we believe Jesus has promised us as our inheritance, for that shows that we are following who Jesus is and believe what He says.

Thus I would like to point out that when the two men spoke to the disciples after Jesus ascended from the mount of Olives, they were referring to the Lord`s return on that mount after the tribulation. A fact I`m sure you would know. And that is written in the book of Zechariah 14:4. This fact was given in relation to the Lord establishing His kingdom rule through Israel over the nations. And this is what the disciples wanted to know. (Acts 1 : 6) 

Then when the Lord Jesus ascended to the Father and the Father made Jesus Head of the Body, (Eph. 1:22) then we see that the Lord begins to give further revelation of His purposes to His Body. And the knowledge of this Body was something hidden previously till revealed to the apostle Paul. (Eph. 3: 1 - 7) So we see that Paul by the Holy Spirit brings forth the revelation that the believers in the Body will not get overtaken by the Day of the Lord as a thief, but they will see it coming and look to the Lord for His gathering them together in the clouds. (1 Thess. 5: 4,   4: 13 - 18) 

Thus there is a difference between the Lord coming for His Body and take them to heaven, and later, the Lord coming to set up His kingdom rule through Israel on the earth. 

The question then is what do we believe? Is my inheritance Heaven or the earth?

 

[AdHoc]

7 hours ago, Last Daze said:

I realize that what one person deems essential, another may not, and vice-versa.  The role that "Israel" plays in eschatology is often debated, usually as it pertains to the spiritual or natural understanding of the term.  I'm not a proponent of separating OT believers from NT believers as some dispensationalists are.  The one passage that I see as addressing both natural and spiritual Israel is found in Revelation 12.

• So the dragon was enraged with the woman [natural], and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus [spiritual].  Revelation 12:17

 

 

Thank you for your reply. First, I would like to agree that one cannot separate Old Testament believers from New Testament believers. In Matthew 17 both are represented in the Kingdom. Moses and Elijah together with three Apostles. Likewise in Matthew 8. Many "WILL COME" (future tense) and sit with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the Kingdom (past fathers in faith). But my emphasis is on the word "BELIEVERS". What of all those Israelites who did not, and do not, believe? Romans 11 gives (i) a remnant (v.4) and the "rest" who did not believe (v.7) Then there is those cut off for "unbelief" leaving some not cut off. And then it is reported that their unbelief remains till the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. Thus, no matter what the understanding of the fullness of the Gentiles is, the bulk of Israel remain in unbelief.

And it is to these that prophecy pertains. According to 2nd Corinthians 5:17 a Jew who converts loses his past. All things are made new. "All" must mean his birth by the flesh, for he is a "new creature". And according to Ephesians 2:15 the New Man is ONE NEW MAN made from "TWAIN" - (i) The Nations and (ii) The Nation of Israel. It is to number (ii) the remainder of Israelites that prophecy applies. Their former countrymen are no longer Jews for in the New Man there is no Jew nor Greek (Gal.3:28, Col.3:10-11).

Now, concerning Revelation 12:17, let me avoid a long explanation of the woman and do what you did - divide her seed. I see her seed as THREEFOLD

1. The Man-Child
2. Her seed who keep the commandments of God
3. Her seed which have the testimony of Jesus Christ

Verse 17 reads: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. This is the grammatically elegant way of writing

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and (the remnant of her seed which) have the testimony of Jesus Christ

The word "and", a conjunction, has three functions. It is copulative (it joins two things), it is cumulative (it adds one thing to another thing), and it is sequential (it sets an order). Thus, those "who keep the commandments of God" are one thing and those "who have the testimony of Jesus Christ" are another. In the Old Testament "the commandments of God" are, without exception, the Law of Moses, and in the New Testament, except for two occasions, it also means the Law of Moses. The two exceptions are unique in that the word "commandment" is singular. What this all leads me to think is that this heavenly woman is mother of ...

1. The Jewish Remnant "who keep the commandments of God" - the Law of Moses
2. The bulk of Christians "who have the testimony of Jesus Christ"

This constellation is found elsewhere in scripture. (i) In Matthew 12 where we have  the BRETHREN of Jesus from Mary (natural) and the BRETHREN of the new birth - the disciples (spiritual). (ii) In Acts 3 where "ye men of Israel" who come from the "fathers" (natural), "BE CONVERTED" (spiritual), (iii) In Galatians 4:26 where Israel (natural) and the Church (spiritual) are CONTRASTED but have the same mother, (iv) In Romans 11 where Israel are natural branches (in unbelief) and Gentile BELIEVERS (spiritual) are wild branches, (v) In New Jerusalem (a mother) where Israel are Gates and the Church is the Wall but both belong to the City.

I have written all this just to show that there is a case for NATIONAL Israel having a future. And it is NATIONAL Israel that is the subject of the prophets. Those of Israel who believe, become the Church which must live by faith. It is not that we Christians should be uneducated as to eschatology, but we should know which prophecies belong to Israel and which belong to the Church. If we don't know which prophecies belong to who, we build hopes and even doctrine on a false foundation.

Anyway, I hope this is just taken as more my reasoning than any kind of rebuttal.

Edited March 10, 2022 by AdHoc
punctuation

[AdHoc]

42 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

Always interesting to talk to you. Now I do believe that when someone starts a journey they should know where they are going. They may not know all the points along the way but definitely they should know where they end up. Thus to me eschatology, although a study of end times does show where we are going. And today`s views are mainly `on earth or in heaven.` Thus it is very important to know what we believe Jesus has promised us as our inheritance, for that shows that we are following who Jesus is and believe what He says.

Thus I would like to point out that when the two men spoke to the disciples after Jesus ascended from the mount of Olives, they were referring to the Lord`s return on that mount after the tribulation. A fact I`m sure you would know. And that is written in the book of Zechariah 14:4. This fact was given in relation to the Lord establishing His kingdom rule through Israel over the nations. And this is what the disciples wanted to know. (Acts 1 : 6) 

Then when the Lord Jesus ascended to the Father and the Father made Jesus Head of the Body, (Eph. 1:22) then we see that the Lord begins to give further revelation of His purposes to His Body. And the knowledge of this Body was something hidden previously till revealed to the apostle Paul. (Eph. 3: 1 - 7) So we see that Paul by the Holy Spirit brings forth the revelation that the believers in the Body will not get overtaken by the Day of the Lord as a thief, but they will see it coming and look to the Lord for His gathering them together in the clouds. (1 Thess. 5: 4,   4: 13 - 18) 

Thus there is a difference between the Lord coming for His Body and take them to heaven, and later, the Lord coming to set up His kingdom rule through Israel on the earth. 

The question then is what do we believe? Is my inheritance Heaven or the earth?

 

Hello Sister, we meet again. Your posting is, in the main, very good. But seeing as the OP addresses "ESSENTIAL eschatology", I would like to open up the point you made in paragraph 3, last sentence. Acts 1:6 is a logical end to the whole of our Lord Jesus' ministry on earth. John Baptist comes preaching the "Kingdom". Jesus' main topic, by far, is the Kingdom. Rebirth is for the Kingdom (Jn.3:3-5), and our subsequent WORKS are for the Kingdom. Now, in Acts 1 our Lord is reported to make the Kingdom His main topic AFTER resurrection.

3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: ... 6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Now, this question by the disciples comes after 3½ years of intensive teaching on the coming Kingdom, ENDING in Matthew 21:43. That is, "ISRAEL, I RIP THE KINGDOM FROM YOU AND GIVE IT TO ANOTHER PEOPLE!" Now, the word "restore" in verse 6 above shows with certainty that the Kingdom was ripped from Israel. So does the word "again" imply that Israel does not have it. And I find not a single scripture that even alludes to Israel reigning with Christ. That is, the Kingdom is NEVER restored to Israel. What i do find is Israel as a Nation restored BUT with Christians ruling over it. Christ - King of kings first, then David (a Christian) (Jer.30:9), the the Twelve Apostles (Christians) over a Tribe each.

I propose that one of the leading prophecies that we should be familiar with, is that the CHURCH is to rule Christ's Kingdom. And I propose that this is seriously important because EVERY parable concerning entry into the Kingdom puts forward plainly that WORKS count. WORKS are the fruit of our faith. What we DO is motivated by what we hold. If we are to prepare ourselves for co-rulership with Christ over cities (Lk.19:17-19), then we should hold that it is us, the Church, that all the warnings are directed at.

However, if you think that I am derailing the thread, please feel free to say so and not answer.

Go well.

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Hello Sister, we meet again. Your posting is, in the main, very good. But seeing as the OP addresses "ESSENTIAL eschatology", I would like to open up the point you made in paragraph 3, last sentence. Acts 1:6 is a logical end to the whole of our Lord Jesus' ministry on earth. John Baptist comes preaching the "Kingdom". Jesus' main topic, by far, is the Kingdom. Rebirth is for the Kingdom (Jn.3:3-5), and our subsequent WORKS are for the Kingdom. Now, in Acts 1 our Lord is reported to make the Kingdom His main topic AFTER resurrection.

3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: ... 6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Now, this question by the disciples comes after 3½ years of intensive teaching on the coming Kingdom, ENDING in Matthew 21:43. That is, "ISRAEL, I RIP THE KINGDOM FROM YOU AND GIVE IT TO ANOTHER PEOPLE!" Now, the word "restore" in verse 6 above shows with certainty that the Kingdom was ripped from Israel. So does the word "again" imply that Israel does not have it. And I find not a single scripture that even alludes to Israel reigning with Christ. That is, the Kingdom is NEVER restored to Israel. What i do find is Israel as a Nation restored BUT with Christians ruling over it. Christ - King of kings first, then David (a Christian) (Jer.30:9), the the Twelve Apostles (Christians) over a Tribe each.

I propose that one of the leading prophecies that we should be familiar with, is that the CHURCH is to rule Christ's Kingdom. And I propose that this is seriously important because EVERY parable concerning entry into the Kingdom puts forward plainly that WORKS count. WORKS are the fruit of our faith. What we DO is motivated by what we hold. If we are to prepare ourselves for co-rulership with Christ over cities (Lk.19:17-19), then we should hold that it is us, the Church, that all the warnings are directed at.

However, if you think that I am derailing the thread, please feel free to say so and not answer.

Go well.

Hi Ad Hoc,

Good to have an in depth discussion on these important topics. Have you ever considered this scripture -

`Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers and that the Gentiles might glorify God for His mercy...` (Rom. 15: 8 & 9)

1. Promises to the Fathers of Israel.

2. The Gentiles might glorify God for His mercy.

So what was Jesus doing while on earth? He was confirming the promises to Israel that was made by God to the fathers. That is what the parables are all about. Jesus was revealing to Israel God`s promise of rulership to them over the nations. (Dan. 2: 44,  7: 27,  9: 24, Ez. 39: 22 & 23,  Hosea 2: 19 & 20,  Micah 4: 1 - 3,  Isa. 2: 1 - 4, etc etc)

 

As to Matt. 21: 43, let`s look at bit further -

`Now when the chief priests and pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was SPEAKING TO THEM.` (Matt. 21: 45)

It was to those leaders specifically that the Lord was referring to, that generation that killed Him, and not to the nation of Israel that God would restore again when He comes to deliver them at the end of the trib.

 

As to the Body of Christ`s rulership that is with the Lord in the highest. (Rev. 3: 21,  Eph. 1: 20 - 23)

 

[AdHoc]

14 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

Good to have an in depth discussion on these important topics. Have you ever considered this scripture -

`Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers and that the Gentiles might glorify God for His mercy...` (Rom. 15: 8 & 9)

1. Promises to the Fathers of Israel.

2. The Gentiles might glorify God for His mercy.

So what was Jesus doing while on earth? He was confirming the promises to Israel that was made by God to the fathers. That is what the parables are all about. Jesus was revealing to Israel God`s promise of rulership to them over the nations. (Dan. 2: 44,  7: 27,  9: 24, Ez. 39: 22 & 23,  Hosea 2: 19 & 20,  Micah 4: 1 - 3,  Isa. 2: 1 - 4, etc etc)

 

As to Matt. 21: 43, let`s look at bit further -

`Now when the chief priests and pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was SPEAKING TO THEM.` (Matt. 21: 45)

It was to those leaders specifically that the Lord was referring to, that generation that killed Him, and not to the nation of Israel that God would restore again when He comes to deliver them at the end of the trib.

 

As to the Body of Christ`s rulership that is with the Lord in the highest. (Rev. 3: 21,  Eph. 1: 20 - 23)

 

One of our great freedoms on an Internet Forum, is that we can engage or avoid a difficult question. You have chosen to avoid my posting. I'm the first to uphold that, but if you let it stand unanswered, you give your tacit approval. 

However, I will answer yours.

Romans 15:9-9 does not say anything about Israel ruling. The context is the stronger Christian "becoming" a servant of the weaker in the practical Church life. The Prime Example, and to be followed, is Jesus Himself. He was both God and King of Israel, yet He stooped to serve them. In which way? In the most unbelievable way - by the innocent and rejected dying for the guilty and rejectors - SO THAT GOD MIGHT EXTEND MERCY EVEN WHEN THEY DO NO BELIEVE. In Chapter 11 we see the natural branches IN UNBELIEF, yet restored as a Nation. On what basis is this mercy extended? On the basis of (1) the Covenants of PROMISE made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and (ii) His death for (a) the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), and (b) the sins of the world (1st Jn.2:2). Neither the Church (who must believe in order to get mercy), nor the Gentiles (who are without a mediator), get this privilege.

If you say that one of the Promises was that Abraham's seed would "possess the Gate of his enemies", I will point you to THREE types of Seed, TWO of which rule. From Jacob came Jesus - the Seed (Singular) Who brought salvation and the Holy Spirit and Who eventually rules (Rev.19:15). From Jacob came "Seed as the sand of the sea shore" - an earthly seed who will occupy an earthly inheritance - Canaan for "an ever lasting possession". Also from Jacob, but via Christ came Seed "as the stars of heaven" - an heavenly seed which has a celestial glory, a heavenly calling, a birth from above who inherit the whole world (Rom.4:13) and who also rule the nations (Rev.2:27). Of the three, nothing is said of ruling.

As to the proffered verse, not one says that Israel will rule.

As to Matthew 21:43, it is a plain statement. And looking further only confirms what I said. Who are the HUSBANDMEN WHO LOSE THE KINGDOM because they withheld fruit from the HOUSEHOLDER, because they beat and killed the fellow servants, because they murdered the true Heir - the Son and because they tried to seize the inheritance? Who are they I ask you? - "THEM - the leaders of Israel - those who "sat in Moses' Seat" (Matt.23:2)

I think, my esteemed sister, it is time to reconsider. Israel forfeit the Kingdom of Heaven. But Israel had a Covenant for the Land. It is to this second one - the Land, that Israel inherits in restoration. BUT NOT THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.

[Marilyn C]

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

One of our great freedoms on an Internet Forum, is that we can engage or avoid a difficult question. You have chosen to avoid my posting. I'm the first to uphold that, but if you let it stand unanswered, you give your tacit approval. 

However, I will answer yours.

Romans 15:9-9 does not say anything about Israel ruling. The context is the stronger Christian "becoming" a servant of the weaker in the practical Church life. The Prime Example, and to be followed, is Jesus Himself. He was both God and King of Israel, yet He stooped to serve them. In which way? In the most unbelievable way - by the innocent and rejected dying for the guilty and rejectors - SO THAT GOD MIGHT EXTEND MERCY EVEN WHEN THEY DO NO BELIEVE. In Chapter 11 we see the natural branches IN UNBELIEF, yet restored as a Nation. On what basis is this mercy extended? On the basis of (1) the Covenants of PROMISE made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and (ii) His death for (a) the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), and (b) the sins of the world (1st Jn.2:2). Neither the Church (who must believe in order to get mercy), nor the Gentiles (who are without a mediator), get this privilege.

If you say that one of the Promises was that Abraham's seed would "possess the Gate of his enemies", I will point you to THREE types of Seed, TWO of which rule. From Jacob came Jesus - the Seed (Singular) Who brought salvation and the Holy Spirit and Who eventually rules (Rev.19:15). From Jacob came "Seed as the sand of the sea shore" - an earthly seed who will occupy an earthly inheritance - Canaan for "an ever lasting possession". Also from Jacob, but via Christ came Seed "as the stars of heaven" - an heavenly seed which has a celestial glory, a heavenly calling, a birth from above who inherit the whole world (Rom.4:13) and who also rule the nations (Rev.2:27). Of the three, nothing is said of ruling.

As to the proffered verse, not one says that Israel will rule.

As to Matthew 21:43, it is a plain statement. And looking further only confirms what I said. Who are the HUSBANDMEN WHO LOSE THE KINGDOM because they withheld fruit from the HOUSEHOLDER, because they beat and killed the fellow servants, because they murdered the true Heir - the Son and because they tried to seize the inheritance? Who are they I ask you? - "THEM - the leaders of Israel - those who "sat in Moses' Seat" (Matt.23:2)

I think, my esteemed sister, it is time to reconsider. Israel forfeit the Kingdom of Heaven. But Israel had a Covenant for the Land. It is to this second one - the Land, that Israel inherits in restoration. BUT NOT THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.

Hi Ad Hoc,

I love to answer questions therefore I do not evade any. I may misunderstand what some one is saying but never not want to answer them.

I thought I had replied to your questions. You seemed to be saying that Christians took over from Israel, while I was pointing out the opposite. 

Perhaps that topic, (as you said) be kept for its own thread.

Marilyn.