First Resurrection, is it of Time Place or Rank?

[DeighAnn]

13 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

I think you meant incorruptible instead of imperishable? 

Mortal as opposed to immortal.  

Doesn't that make the lake of fire even worse?  Lake of fire, in this body,  would be a nothing (a bit of an exaggeration),

but in the spiritual body I AM GUESSING would be a whole lot different and a whole lot scarier, and I am not going to think on that anymore and just thank God for the gift of Salvation instead.  

[Selah7]

The soul will shed its flesh and blood body in order to take on a new spiritual body that is incorruptible and non-flesh-and-blood. 

[transmogrified]

23 hours ago, Selah7 said:

What exactly do you mean by glorified bodies?

It says he will change our vile bodies that they might be fashioned like unto his glorious body...we will be like the angels...Paul said it will happen at the resurrection / rapture when this mortal puts on immortality, and this corruption puts on incorruption...its what happens when Paul said 'we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed...

 

22 hours ago, Selah7 said:

Yes, but some only get an imperishable one but remain mortal.  They don't receive the glory of immortality.

There is no such thing as a mortal body that is imperishable...there is a mortal body and an immortal body...the word mortal means 'subject to death...' immortal means it will never die

 

23 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

so people die during the 1000 years.

I did not mean the resurrected / raptured saints are dying during the 1000 years...these have glorified bodies that will never die...the ones who die are the nations who get converted at the Second Coming...not everyone is killed, many nations will be joined to the Lord in that day..

In Matthew 24 when Jesus is descending down to earth with his elect, he said 'And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven...' he did not say 'And you (the disciples) will see the Son of man coming in the clouds, because they will be with Jesus when he comes...so when it says 'they shall see him coming' he is talking about the people who are still alive on the earth...they were not all killed or nobody would be there to see him coming.

It also says in Revelation 'Every eye shall see him, even those who pierced him..' So if there were no one on the earth, then there would not be anyone who would see him coming ...this also shows the wicked dead are resurrected at the Second coming when he says 'even those who pierced him...'

When it says 'they shall see him coming in the clouds,' it also means these were people in natural bodies and were not converted at the time the resurrection / rapture took place...how do we know that? Because if they had been converted prior to the resurrection / rapture then they would have been returning with all the other saints with Jesus...

23 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

On 4/4/2022 at 10:24 PM, transmogrified said:

Like Job 14:14 says "If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my appointed time will I wait until my change comes...' He did not say 'at the point of my death I will be changed, but rather he would wait UNTIL his change comes...

I always remember God said this of the conversations that took place in Job  

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

Paul and Job were saying the same thing...Paul said we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment in the twinkling of an eye...at the last trump...the last trump is a point in time when ALL the saints are changed at the same time...believers are sleeping in Jesus waiting for the resurrection at the last trump when they will be changed...It is important to realize we do not get changed when we die..we get changed when we are resurrected...if everyone got immortal bodies at the point of death, then what Paul said would be meaningless..the believers would  not get immortal bodies at the time of death and then also everyone gets immortal bodies at the last trump...that is non sense.

23 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

On 4/4/2022 at 10:24 PM, transmogrified said:

What Daniel said was that 'many that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake.'  This means they are not awake right now, and it also means they have not yet received their glorified bodies, but they are awaiting that time when they will be changed...

Again, you don't believer 'the graves opened' or they rose with Christ's dead body or He led the captivity but that is a future event?

 

Paul said every man in his own order...Christ the first fruits, afterward those that are Christ's at his coming...

He did not say 'Christ the first fruits and some other saints, and afterwards those that are Christ's at his coming.' Christ is the first fruits...no one else was the first fruits...he was the first that would rise from the dead and enter into glory.. the only other category is 'Those that are Christ's at his coming...' This includes all saints from Adam to the Second Coming...for God gave all his sheep to Christ and Jesus said 'All that the Father hath given me I will lose nothing but raise it up at the last day...' 

23 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

On 4/4/2022 at 10:24 PM, transmogrified said:

What Daniel said was that 'many that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake.'  This means they are not awake right now, and it also means they have not yet received their glorified bodies, but they are awaiting that time when they will be changed...

Again, you don't believer 'the graves opened'

Yes, the graves were opened and many of the saints which slept arose and went into the holy city and were known of many. These did not ascend into heaven, they went into Jerusalem and were known of many and then they died again, just like Lazarus was resurrected and died again and is now waiting to be resurrected with all the other saints at the last trump.

23 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Again, you don't believer 'the graves opened' or they rose with Christ's dead body or He led the captivity but that is a future event?

The scripture in Isaiah is 'Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust; for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead."

'Thy dead men'  would not mean the 'many of the saints which slept that went into Jerusalem' because they did not ascend to heaven, nor would those that came out of the graves be all of God's dead men, for it says many of the saints which slept arose, not all the saints who slept... So when it says 'together with my dead body' Isaiah is including himself with all of the rest of God's dead men who will rise together...this is saying there will be one resurrection of all of God's dead men who will rise at one time.

This is also said in Rev. 11:18 when it is 'The time of the dead that they should be judged.. and that he would reward his saints, (all both Old and New Testament saints) the prophets (This would include Isaiah as stated here and all the other prophets, Old and New Testament) and 'them that fear his name, both small and great..' This again includes everyone who fears God and does righteousness.

I do not know what the phrase 'he led captivity captive' means but it is not saying saints ascended with Christ to heaven...remember Paul says 'Christ the first fruits...not Christ and some saints are the first fruits,' so we can't assume something different than what Paul said.

 

23 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Do you believe that David 'rose' with Christ's dead body at His resurrection or not?

No, no one arose except Jesus.. Paul said 'Christ the first fruits..not Christ and some saints are the first fruits...' 

23 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I understand Paul is explaining that on the day Christ returns the alive will be changed, but if those who have taken the mark of the beast are changed that would mean they don't die but receive their immortality.  How can that be?

A person could take the mark of the beast during the tribulation and then repent of it before Christ came, but then he would be included in the resurrection / rapture at the Second coming...but if he repented after Christ came, then he would not get an immortal body...he would just get converted and enter into the 1000 year reign under the rule of Christ and the saints. 

Quote

if those who have taken the mark of the beast are changed that would mean they don't die but receive their immortality

The only way those who have taken the mark of the beast would be changed into an immortal body is if they converted before Jesus returned...the only place the believers ever get changed is at the last trump, on the last day, there are no other options...if they miss that then they will stay in their mortal body subject to death. If they die in righteousness during the 1000 years, then they will be resurrected at the Great White throne and their name will be in the Book of Life...if they die in sin during the 1000 year reign then their name will not be in the Book of life and they are cast into the lake of fire at the Great White Throne which is the second death.

Even during the 1000 years a person can be disobedient to God...like it says 'The nations (or people) who do not go up to worship the Lord in Jerusalem to keep the feast of tabernacles, he said upon them there would be no rain, and that this would be their punishment...so even though the devil is bound during that time, people can still chose to be either obedient or disobedient...

23 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Christ make it clear that 'sleeping' was death when He went from one to the other.  Do you believe we NEVER DIE or do you believe we DO DIE and then will be raised up?

Jesus said 'Our friend Lazarus sleeps...but I go to awake him out of sleep...' the disciples thought he meant he was resting physically but then Jesus said plainly, Lazarus is dead...

So what we have to realize is that death is sleeping...Like when I die, I look at it as if I am going to go to sleep and then wake up at the Last Trump...This is the analogy scripture gives us...it will happen to both the righteous and the wicked...At the resurrection, both will wake up on the last day at the sound of the 7th trumpet...this is the time of the dead...all the dead, both good and bad. 

23 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Are you saying not every seed a body or when the earthen vessels dissolves we have a spiritual 'house' eternal  in heavens?

Paul said and to every seed his own body...but the earthen vessel is not considered 'dissolved' UNTIL it is clothed upon with immortality...The error is thinking it is dissolved at death...it is not dissolved until it is changed...in other words, the dust you are made of continues to be the same dust until that dust is changed into something else...similar to a caterpillar...first its a worm, then it goes into its cocoon and out comes a beautiful butterfly... where did the butterfly come from? There was no additional material added to what the caterpillar consisted of before it went into the cocoon...God just re arranged the same ingredients in a different manner and the caterpillar was changed into something else.

This is what Job meant when he said 'after the skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh I shall see God.' This is what the word 'change' means when it says God will change our vile bodies...it means 'to transform.' Paul said this:

Quote

"For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened, not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life." 

So it is not at death (which would be the 'unclothed part') but rather when mortality is swallowed up of life when we are changed at the last trump, (which would be the 'clothed upon' part) This is when this earthly house is dissolved and we then have our house from heaven....

Blessings to you- Gary

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by transmogrified

[Diaste]

22 hours ago, Selah7 said:

Good morning, Diaste.  Okay, let me try to explain what I believe is the point of the passage in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54.  I’ll post it:

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

This mystery will be a time when all flesh bodies of persons still alive will be changed instantly from their flesh bodies into their new incorruptible bodies.  All people will get an incorruptible body.  Even a person who is spiritually dead will take on a new incorruptible body in which he will live throughout the Millennial age kingdom of Christ.  The condition of the soul has nothing to do with the transformation from the flesh body to the new spiritual or incorruptible body.  A person who was lost before the change will still be lost; and someone who has received Jesus Christ and is under His shed blood will still be in that same spiritual condition.  When the seventh trump sounds, all flesh will be done away with and all souls will now exist in their spiritual bodies.  Those who enter the First Resurrection will now have an immortal body, but those who do not will still have a body that is not immortal; in other words, the soul is mortal and still liable to die.  These souls will be taught during the Millennium, and after this will be the GWTJ.  If they confess Jesus Christ as Savior, they will go through the second resurrection and now will take on an immortal body.  If they deny Christ, they will face the second death in the lake of fire where they will perish, along with Satan.

Did this help, @Diaste?  Should I provide more Scripture?

in His GRACE, Selah

The explanation doesn't fit the facts. 

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Thank you.  

 

I think there is a reason 'every seed a body' is so specific because that is what is meant.  So either this is taken as 'it is written' or it is taken as Hath God said which as we all know is the worst. So I am not arguing from silence here on every seed a body.  

 

1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

And there it is

Just because I don't understand how does not mean it isn't a fact. I don't have to know how or why to trust in Jesus.   

 

I'm lost concerning your point about 'every seed has a body'. 

[Selah7]

4 hours ago, transmogrified said:

18 hours ago, Selah7 said:

Yes, but some only get an imperishable one but remain mortal.  They don't receive the glory of immortality.

There is no such thing as a mortal body that is imperishable...there is a mortal body and an immortal body...the word mortal means 'subject to death...' immortal means it will never die

I never said this.  
This was posted by @DeighAnn on page 17 (hmmm…I wonder how that happened)

[Selah7]

49 minutes ago, Diaste said:

The explanation doesn't fit the facts. 

How don’t they?  Let’s talk about it. 

[DeighAnn]

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Paul and Job were saying the same thing...Paul said we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment in the twinkling of an eye...at the last trump...the last trump is a point in time when ALL the saints are changed at the same time...believers are sleeping in Jesus waiting for the resurrection at the last trump when they will be changed...It is important to realize we do not get changed when we die..we get changed when we are resurrected...if everyone got immortal bodies at the point of death, then what Paul said would be meaningless..the believers would  not get immortal bodies at the time of death and then also everyone gets immortal bodies at the last trump...that is non sense

We can go back and forth all the live long day,  but it isn't going to change WHAT IS WRITTEN. Either YOU BELIEVE what is written or you don't.  SIMPLE.

Jesus says if you believe (come to faith) while you are living YOU WILL NEVER DIE.  Not my words, but it is  WHAT I BELIEVE.  I BELIEVE WHAT JESUS SAID.  

YOU KEEP telling me THAT is incorrect, you tell me I WILL DIE but since IT'S NOT A PERMANENT DEATH, IT'S OK TO SAY THAT, as I will EVENTUALLY be raised back up from that death.

BUT THAT ISN'T EVEN CLOSE TO WHAT JESUS TOLD US, IS IT?  

You CAN give it a 'prettier' name  like 'sleeping'...but it doesn't change the fact THAT ISN'T WHAT JESUS SAID.  

The earthen vessel dies, there is another VESSEL.  To every seed a body.  THAT IS WHAT IS WRITTEN, THAT IS WHAT I BELIEVE.  

What about IT IS WRITTEN 'every seed a body?   YOU  TELL ME no, the 'seed' goes body less.  Apparently it is ok to say that also because EVENTUALLY that seed will get a body again.  I DON'T BELIEVE YOU.  I believe what is written.  Please don't tell me again all the stuff that falls under hath God said like it is truth.  IT ISN'T.

God says one body is sown, the other body raises. Now you disagree because it is immortal.  BUT NOT TO GOD.  There is a natural body and there is a spiritual body.  EVERY ONE HAS 2.  But I believe WHAT IS WRITTEN.  GOD CAN KILL IN THE LAKE OF FIRE even what is imperishable even if you believe they are all the same. 

1st death is by man.  2nd death by God.  God has no restrictions.  We CAN'T take CARNAL THOUGHTS and apply them to the spiritual world.  It just doesn't work.  

ALL the Saints ALIVE AND REMAINING are changed  ON THE LAST DAY.   


RE CAP
Either you believe Jesus and you never die, or you don't.  You don't get to believe you never die and then speak of dead/sleeping like it doesn't contradict when you know it does.  That is called confusion.   Solution, Flesh dies, spirit raises.  And what body do they come?  Depends on what vessel God chooses.   Some will be naked.  Some will be wood and dishonor.  Some gold and honor.  BUT WHAT SAINTS WONT EVER BE IS DEAD, that is,  IF YOU BELIEVE WHAT JESUS SAID.  That is the long and short of if.  If you want to believe in a last day in which all the dead are resurrected when JESUS RETURNS,  that is up to you.  BUT THAT ISN'T WHAT IS WRITTEN
THE day the VERY LAST DAY AT THE END OF THE AGE, there will be people ALIVE on the planet.  So PAUL trying to explain what will take place on the last day and GIVES an explanation FOR THAT DAY.   SO what do you do?  You take what is written about THAT FINAL DAY and APPLY it to ALL THE REST OF TIME. 

DOESN'T seem to matter that is goes DIRECTLY against what Jesus told us.  






IF THE DEAD DELAY IN RISING

THEN CHRIST WOULD ALSO BE DELAYED IN RISING.  WHY?  BECAUSE THOUGH He is FIRST FRUIT, as in TOP DOG, 

HE WAS DEAD.  SLEEPING.  IN THE GRAVE. 

IF THE DEAD DON'T RISE, (CHRIST being DEAD)  THEN CHRIST DOESN'T RISE.   

Christ the FIRST FRUITS of them THAT SLEPT.  

 

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

I'm lost concerning your point about 'every seed has a body'. 

We have two bodies.  God has provided a body for every seed IN both 'dimensions'. One for the world we now SEE and one for the world we DON'T CURRENTLY SEE but soon will be seeing.    

WE are SEED.  No 'seed' is ever without a body.  THAT IS WHAT IS WRITTEN.  Earthen vessel dissolves there is another vessel it is spiritual. 
NO DISEMBODIED 'seeds'.  This applies to all both good and bad. 

I understand that people don't like it, BUT IT IS WHAT IS WRITTEN.   

Not only that but spiritual bodies differ from one another.  THEY have different 'glories', God tells us this all over the place.  We will not all  be the same.  Just like we are not all the same here,  we are not all the same there. 


There is the one common salvation, come early in the morning,  come late in the day and the salvation is the same for all, but our deeds do follow us. 


Is that the question you are asking or are you asking about the 'different' bodies the 'seeds' have?  wheat or perhaps some other grain.  Gold vessels of honor all the way down to wood and dishonor.  The glory of one differs from the glory of another.  The dead having spiritual bodies also.  Every man is given in measure. Some are given one thing some are given another.  God loved Jacob hated Esau.  Some are chosen, some are called.  Some are vessels of mercy some are vessels of destruction.  God is simple God is complex and GOD is JUST.  Doesn't matter if we don't know how it works we just trust it does.  

[Your closest friendnt]

20 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Mortal as opposed to immortal.  

Doesn't that make the lake of fire even worse?  Lake of fire, in this body,  would be a nothing (a bit of an exaggeration),

but in the spiritual body I AM GUESSING would be a whole lot different and a whole lot scarier, and I am not going to think on that anymore and just thank God for the gift of Salvation instead.  

What about John, or any other disciple. Did they have anything to say?