You Cannot Believe What Jesus Said, And Be Pre-Trib

[Keras]

16 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

All the saints return withe Jesus at the Second Coming...Jesus does not come at the end of the 1000 years...

ALL his saints coming with Jesus does not mean

PART of his saints coming with Jesus

The tribulation saints are PART of his saints

The tribulation saints are not ALL of his saints..

Saying only the Tribulation saints come back with Jesus is saying PART of the saints will return with Jesus

Scripture does not say 'The Lord my God will come and PART of his saints...

Scripture says 'The Lord my God shall come and ALL his saints with him..

ALL and PART are not the same

Paul said 'At the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with ALL his saints...' Paul did not say:

'At the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with PART of his saints...'

If all the saints come back with Jesus, then it is not true that only the tribulation saints are resurrected

When he said the 'dead in Christ will rise first,' it is acknowledged  that the tribulation saints are not the only saints who have died in Christ.

He showed us a mystery: He said 'We shall not all sleep, but we shall ALL be changed, in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, at the last trump..'

 ALL being changed in a moment in a twinkling of an eye does not mean PART of us will be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye...

There is no category Jesus mentioned that he would raise the tribulation saints on the last day and the other saints at another day...he said ALL that believe on me will be raised at the last day

Combine this with we shall ALL be changed in a moment and you do not have part of the saints changed on the last day and another part of the saint changed at the end of the 1000 years...this is not ALL being changed in a moment...this is PART being changed in a moment, and another PART being changed at another time...

It is also contrary to all being changed at the Last Trump...the trumpet does not sound at the coming of the Lord, and then another trumpet sound at the end of the 1000 years...there is no trumpet at the end of the 1000 years and even if there they both could not be the last one

And who will be like him when he appears? Is it just the tribulation saints that get glorified bodies? No it is not.

John said 'We know not what WE shall be but we know that when he shall appear WE shall be like him, for WE shall see him as he is...'

He did not say 'We know not what WE shall be, but we know that when he shall appear the tribulation saints will be like him, for THEY shall see him as he is...'

No..All the saints will be like him WHEN he appears...not SOME when he appears and then the others will be like him 1000 years after he appears...

Blessings to you

Your belief is contrary to Scripture.   1 Thessalonians 4:14 does not say 'all' the dead Christians will be brought back with Jesus.  Revelation 20:4 specifically says the Jesus will only bring the souls of the GT martyrs, at that time. 

You confuse 1 Corinthians 15:5056 and other prophesies which describe what will happen at the GWT Judgment, Revelation 20:1015, with the glorious Return. 

The teaching of a general resurrection when Jesus Returns, is simply a fable and is not scriptural. 

 

[transmogrified]

1 hour ago, Keras said:

Your belief is contrary to Scripture.   

These are scriptures:

1 Thess. 3:13

"To the end he may establish your hearts un blamable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

Zech. 14:5 "...ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah; and the Lord my God shall come , and all the saints with thee."

Saying he will come with all his saints is scriptural...saying he will not come with all his saints is not scriptural...

Blessings to you - Gary

[Keras]

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

These are scriptures:

1 Thess. 3:13

"To the end he may establish your hearts un blamable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

Zech. 14:5 "...ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah; and the Lord my God shall come , and all the saints with thee."

Saying he will come with all his saints is scriptural...saying he will not come with all his saints is not scriptural...

Blessings to you - Gary

Resolve the Bible anomaly, then:

Matthew 16:27a....the Son will come in the glory of the Father, with His angels...

Revelation 19:14...the armies of heaven followed Him....

These plainly stated prophesies override the mistranslations of your scriptures of the Greek word 'hagios', which can mean 'saints or angels'. 

The belief of any human accompanying Jesus at His glorious Return, is false and cannot happen. He will bring our rewards with Him. Matthew 16:27b

[Omegaman 3.0]

2 hours ago, Keras said:

Resolve the Bible anomaly, then:

Matthew 16:27a....the Son will come in the glory of the Father, with His angels...

Revelation 19:14...the armies of heaven followed Him....

These plainly stated prophesies override the mistranslations of your scriptures of the Greek word 'hagios', which can mean 'saints or angels'. 

The belief of any human accompanying Jesus at His glorious Return, is false and cannot happen. He will bring our rewards with Him. Matthew 16:27b

Sorry, I am not following you, I don't see the difficulty you do! Care to flesh it out a bit, unpack it, if you don't mind!

[Keras]

1 hour ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Sorry, I am not following you, I don't see the difficulty you do! Care to flesh it out a bit, unpack it, if you don't mind!

The 'difficulty' is that many Christians have been taught that when Jesus Returns, we will then receive immortality, or 'glorified bodies'. They think they will Return with Jesus, waving their swords.  Which is just about the most unbelievable theory imaginable.  It puts comics and movies like Star trek, to shame. 

The main proof text prophecy about the glorious Return of Jesus, indisputably states how the armies of heaven accompany Him. Revelation 19:14  NO mention of humans there and how could there be?,  as Jesus said humans going to heaven was impossible. John 3:13

[transmogrified]

8 hours ago, Keras said:

The belief of any human accompanying Jesus at His glorious Return, is false and cannot happen. He will bring our rewards with Him. Matthew 16:27b

Christ was the first fruits....afterward they that are Christ's at his coming...who belongs to Christ? Just the tribulation saints? No of course not...all the saints belong to Christ...What is Paul talking about? The resurrection of the dead...Jesus was first resurrected, and then at the Second Coming he says those that belong to Christ will be resurrected...these are the dead in Christ...it doesn't need to say 'and ALL of the dead in Christ will rise...' even though it doesn't use the word 'all' we know 'the dead in Christ' are not just tribulation saints, just as much as we know 'those that belong to Christ' are not just tribulation saints...

It says he will being 'those that sleep in Jesus' with him when he returns..the tribulation saints are not the only ones who would be sleeping in Jesus...as all saints when they die are sleeping in Jesus...

But Paul completely reveals the mystery and says "Behold, I show you a mystery...we shall not all sleep, but we shall ALL be changed, in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye at the last trump..this shows the tribulation saints will be changed at the same time the rest of the saints will be changed...there are no saints excluded from being raised at the last trump, on the last day...the tribulation saints can not be resurrected at the Second Coming and then the rest of the saints resurrected at the end of the 1000 years and still all be changed in a moment, in a twinkle of  eye, at the last trump...there is no trumpet sounding at the end of the 1000 years...it sounds one time, when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord...this does not happen at the end of the 1000 years...

What happens when the 7th trumpet sounds? It says it is the time of the dead that they should be judged and he would give reward to :

1)His servants the prophets....the prophets are more than tribulation saints

2) To the saints...the saints are more than just tribulation saints

3) Those that fear his name both small and great...these are more than just tribulation saints...

 ALL WILL BE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP...IN A MOMENT IN A TWINKLE OF AN EYE...NO SAINT EXCLUDED

The dead in Christ will return meet the living in the air and all come down to this earth with Jesus...He BRINGS THOSE THAT SLEEP WITH HIM...where is he going? He is coming back to this earth......this is all the saints...there are no other saints ..when it says he will bring those that sleep with him, he is saying ALL THE DEAD IN CHRIST will be coming with him to reign on the earth....

Compare the two statements:

1) Behold I show you a mystery...we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in a moment in a twinkle of an eye, at the last trump...

2) Behold I show you a mystery..."we shall not all sleep, but the tribulation saints will be changed in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, at the last trump, but the other saints will be changed at the end of the 1000 years..."

 The first statement is scripture...the last one is a private interpretation and is not scriptural...there is no exclusion when he says we shall ALL be changed at the last trump.

WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP, IN A MOMENT, IN A TWINKLE OF AN EYE...if all the saints are changed, there are no others who were not changed...impossible

Blessings to you- Gary

[Keras]

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP, IN A MOMENT, IN A TWINKLE OF AN EYE...if all the saints are changed, there are no others who were not changed...impossible

Your avoidance of the proof of who will be resurrected at the Return, in Revelation 20:4, and of the proof that 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, does not pertain to the Return, means that we cannot resolve this issue. 

We will soon see what will happen; possible according to scripture and impossible according to you.  

[transmogrified]

57 minutes ago, Keras said:

Your avoidance of the proof of who will be resurrected at the Return, in Revelation 20:4,

How many of the saints will be changed at the last trump? All or part? 

[AdHoc]

21 hours ago, transmogrified said:

There is not a resurrection for some of the saints at one time and then another resurrection of the saints at another time...Paul said we shall ALL be changed in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, at the last trump...ALL the saints are COLLECTIVELY gathered at one time..this is the harvest of the wheat at the end of the age..

There are not 3 gatherings of the wheat...it says both the wheat and tares grow together until the (singular) harvest...Both are resurrected, judged and rewarded at the end of this age..There is not a harvest for the wheat before  the end of the age, and then another one before the end of the age, and then another one at the end of the age...NO. ONE harvest at the end of the age...

Same with the good and bad fish..the net is let down ONE time and not drawn to shore until it was full of both good and bad fish...it was not let down for part of the good fish at one time, and then let down at another time for the rest of the good fish, and then let down another time for just the bad fish...NO. The net let down ONE time, drawn to shore when it is full of BOTH Good and bad fish...

I am not talking about the resurrection at the end of the 1000 years, and neither are the above scriptures...the wheat and tares and good and bad fish are both referring to the resurrection at the Second Coming, on the Last day.

Take the scenario that was described in the above quote...

This is exactly the scenario...Jesus was the first fruits, resurrected and entered into glory some 2000 years ago...the only other category is 'those that are Christ's at his coming...' 

So this what Paul said 'Christ the first fruits, afterward they that are Christ's at his coming...' There is no 'Christ and some saints are the first fruits...NO. Christ is the first fruits, and then the only other group is ALL the saints at his coming...

I say ALL his saints, for Jesus explicitly stated that ALL that the Father gave to him he would raise on the last day...so all Gods sheep were given to Christ, so when he says 'Afterward, they that are Christ's, he means 'All the saints that God gave Christ will be resurrected at his coming...which is every saint in existence...it is not broken up into 'tribulation saints, church age saints, Old Testament saints..No. All these saints belong to Christ so they are all raised in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye at the last trump...

Tie this in with he comes with ALL his saints, and they ALL have to be raised on the last day, because remember there is no resurrection for anyone until the last day...so there is no pre trib resurrection, hence no 1 Thess. 4 pre trib scenario, for it has the dead in Christ being raised in that setting which is impossible to occur before the last day...so it is a last day setting...and it is not sometime into the 1000 year last day, for ALL his saints come with him at the Second coming...so it ends up just like Jesus said...All believers will be raised at the last day...

Blessings to you- Gary

O.K. You pegged the occurrences as being "ON the last day". But I called that length of that day into question - with good reasons. This you dismiss out of hand - which is your right. But your problems are not a few. Adam's life, Israel's "Rest" of Hebrews 3 and the "coming Rest" of Hebrews 4 are just a few. But now you have added problems with this posting above.

According to 2nd Peter 3:18 you cannot interpret scripture privately. Added to this, Romans Chapter 1 says that NATURE displays the things of God. So when you come to the harvest, you are obliged to look at nature and scripture. (1) In Nature we have ONE Harvest but THREE GATHERINGS. (2) In Leviticus 23 you have THREE GATHERINGS. In BOTH you cannot count our Lord's resurrection because (1) the harvest we discuss is at the END of the age (Matt.13), and (2) in Leviticus 23 our Lord is Firstfruits of the WINTER CROP. His offering is WITHOUT LEAVEN, but at Pentecost there is a new "Firstfruits" WITH Leaven. Thus, although Christ is Firstborn of the dead, and Firstfruits of them that slept, the harvest at the end of the age is a normal harvest with three gatherings.

The next problem you have caused by stating the Tares and the Wheat's harvest is that there are again THREE harvests. The Tares are harvested first and burned. Then the Wheat is harvested. But WITHIN THIS HARVEST is a separating of things that offend. The tares are taken care of and not mentioned again. But of those IN THE KINGDOM (which can only be entered if you are born again) there are those that offended and who are separated. There is the GATHERING of the Tares, there is the GATHERING of Wheat, and WITHIN the Wheat there s a GATHERING of that WHEAT THAT OFFENDS.

And the Parable of the fishes SUPPOSES ONE HARVESTS. But like all harvest the good is SEPARATED from the bad. This implies that a judgment takes place. If we interpret scripture with scripture, and the sea is the Nations (Ezek.26:3, etc.). Thus, the harvest of the fishes speaks for the judgment of Christ in Matthew 25:31-46.

You can see that while anything is possible for God, if you take the "Last Day", or"the DAY of the Lord" as a one day event, a lot of things must happen. But if the Last day is the Lord's Day, it is a Sabbath - the seventh 1,000-year age and all God's subjugation and dominion fits in this time

But, if at first, you must adhere to what you now hold - no problem.

[Keras]

3 hours ago, transmogrified said:

How many of the saints will be changed at the last trump? All or part? 

All; but that will not happen until the Great white Throne Judgment, AFTER the Millennium. 

At the Return, ONLY the GT martyrs are resurrected. Revelation 20:4