The Revelation of Jesus Christ

[Selah7]

35 minutes ago, Alive said:

I see that thus far, we have no willing participants in the experiment.

 

I’m willing.  You never answered my question, though.  
 

What does the Lord’s Day mean to you?  

[Selah7]

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

- Revelation 1:10 (KJV)

If I were a new convert reading Revelation for the first time, I would see that John was spiritually taken to the Lord’s Day.

[Selah7]

… continued

And I would know, from having read God’s Word, that this happens in the future in the Lord’s Day.  The Lord’s Day is the SECOND ADVENT OF JESUS CHRIST.  This is future; it has not happened yet.  I’m sitting here, and guess what?  I’m still in my flesh body and have not yet been changed in the twinkling of an eye. 

[Alive]

13 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

- Revelation 1:10 (KJV)

If I were a new convert reading Revelation for the first time, I would see that John was spiritually taken to the Lord’s Day.

This has nothing to do with the OP.

Did not the early church consider the Lord’s day as the day He resurrected?

Is there a twinkling in Revelation?

No more distractions. The OP is a simple experiment, that is all.

Lots of threads on other stuff.

[Retrobyter]

On 4/7/2022 at 10:28 AM, Alive said:

Let's consider a wee experiment. Make believe for a while that you are a new convert to Christ and you have no knowledge of various positions on eschatology. You are literate and pay attention to what you read--especially the bible, because you have come to understand it is God's word for us. You are hungry to learn and to understand. After a while you got around to reading Revelation.

What would you naturally conclude when you took notice of these verses in your reading. These verses included among all of the symbolism that makes your head spin? Remember, you have not been indoctrinated. Perhaps you are Chinese or a Muslim or a farmers child from Nebraska.

You have not yet asked your new pastor to explain.

You are now reading......

:-)

Rev. 1:1 (ESVS)  The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Rev. 1:3 (ESVS) Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

Rev. 2:16 (ESVS) Therefore repent. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth.

Rev. 3:11 (ESVS) I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown.

Rev. 11:14 (ESVS)    The second woe has passed; behold, the third woe is soon to come.

Rev. 22:6 (ESVS)   And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place.”

Rev. 22:7 (ESVS)   “And behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”

Rev. 22:10 (ESVS)   And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.

Rev. 22:12 (ESVS)   “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done.

Rev. 22:20 (ESVS)   He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!

 

Shabbat shalom, Alive.

As a new believer, I would be greatly bothered by the words of Revelation. It's a scary book! I might pick up on the fact that there are several similes, with the words "like" or "as," throughout, and I could see that there were some things that sounded like metaphors, but I wouldn't know what to make of it ... until I started to see some words and phrases were similar to words and phrases from the prophets in the "Old Testament."

A new believer, such as myself in this scenario, would be impatient to understand what was going on. I would be GREATLY SURPRISED if he didn't find someone whom he thought would know more than he did about it to ask that person questions. At the very least, he would get together with another new believer, and they might bounce ideas off each other to see if they could figure it out. No new believer should be "thrown into the deep end" at the beginning of their new walk with the Messiah. That's why, at the very least, someone will guide them to read the book of John first.

When I'd come to a word like "soon," the first question in my mind would be "HOW soon?" From life, I've deduced that "soon" is a relative term, depending on the context, whether in reading about life, or in the very living!

When inundated with questions from our children, like, "When is Christmas going to be here?" We might curtly answer, "Soon," even if it's months away because we're busy on some project.

When we have more time, we might sit down with those children and show them on a calendar how far away Christmas actually is, but young children may not yet understand a calendar! However, they may understand "going to bed" and "getting up" in the morning. So, we might show them that each day on the calendar means another time of "going to bed" and "getting up."

An INFINITE and ETERNAL God deals with us as with children. To Him, "one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." So, in His wisdom, He just says, "Soon."

The Ruwach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God) also assesses our ability to assimilate knowledge, and only gives us what we can handle from day to day. He is VERY patient with us and knows just how much He can give us before we go into "information overload!" When confronted with new knowledge, as in taking a particular class for the first time, we need time to process what knowledge we are exposed to the first day! The mind works in such a way that we need "hooks" in our current knowledge whereby we can relate the new information we are learning with what we already know. So, the Holy Spirit gives us just as much as we can handle, and then sends us out to play! The next day's lesson will be to reinforce what was already taught with a bit more new information thrown into the mix.

Something else to consider is this: Is the author speaking to an individual or to a collective body of people (a "church"), or even to a whole nation? "Soon" can mean different things based upon to whom the author is talking! If God is talking collectively to all the believers who will ever read Revelation, it's quite possible that "soon" could still be in the centuries, even millennia, since the words were written!

[Alive]

2 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, Alive.

As a new believer, I would be greatly bothered by the words of Revelation. It's a scary book! I might pick up on the fact that there are several similes, with the words "like" or "as," throughout, and I could see that there were some things that sounded like metaphors, but I wouldn't know what to make of it ... until I started to see some words and phrases were similar to words and phrases from the prophets in the "Old Testament."

A new believer, such as myself in this scenario, would be impatient to understand what was going on. I would be GREATLY SURPRISED if he didn't find someone whom he thought would know more than he did about it to ask that person questions. At the very least, he would get together with another new believer, and they might bounce ideas off each other to see if they could figure it out. No new believer should be "thrown into the deep end" at the beginning of their new walk with the Messiah. That's why, at the very least, someone will guide them to read the book of John first.

When I'd come to a word like "soon," the first question in my mind would be "HOW soon?" From life, I've deduced that "soon" is a relative term, depending on the context, whether in reading about life, or in the very living!

When inundated with questions from our children, like, "When is Christmas going to be here?" We might curtly answer, "Soon," even if it's months away because we're busy on some project.

When we have more time, we might sit down with those children and show them on a calendar how far away Christmas actually is, but young children may not yet understand a calendar! However, they may understand "going to bed" and "getting up" in the morning. So, we might show them that each day on the calendar means another time of "going to bed" and "getting up."

An INFINITE and ETERNAL God deals with us as with children. To Him, "one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." So, in His wisdom, He just says, "Soon."

The Ruwach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God) also assesses our ability to assimilate knowledge, and only gives us what we can handle from day to day. He is VERY patient with us and knows just how much He can give us before we go into "information overload!" When confronted with new knowledge, as in taking a particular class for the first time, we need time to process what knowledge we are exposed to the first day! The mind works in such a way that we need "hooks" in our current knowledge whereby we can relate the new information we are learning with what we already know. So, the Holy Spirit gives us just as much as we can handle, and then sends us out to play! The next day's lesson will be to reinforce what was already taught with a bit more new information thrown into the mix.

Something else to consider is this: Is the author speaking to an individual or to a collective body of people (a "church"), or even to a whole nation? "Soon" can mean different things based upon to whom the author is talking! If God is talking collectively to all the believers who will ever read Revelation, it's quite possible that "soon" could still be in the centuries, even millennia, since the words were written!

Thank you for a thoughtful response, but it is evasive and unnecesarily dismissive of the meaning of words…soon and near.

[Retrobyter]

10 minutes ago, Alive said:

This has nothing to do with the OP.

Did not the early church consider the Lord’s day as the day He resurrected?

Is there a twinkling in Revelation?

No more distractions. The OP is a simple experiment, that is all.

Lots of threads on other stuff.

Shabbat shalom, Alive.

No. The Lord's day was the "Day of the Lord," a particular day in prophetic history when God has had enough, and lets all the promises, good and bad, begin in a deluge of fulfillment.

The "Lord's day" was not just "Sunday!"

Which reminds me, the phrase "this is the day that the Lord hath made," is not just talking about any ol' day! It, too, is talking about that moment in the future.

[Retrobyter]

1 minute ago, Alive said:

Thank you for a thoughtful response, but it is evasive and unnecesarily dismissive of the meaning of words…soon and near.

Shabbat shalom, Alive.

It's not being "dismissive"; it's being realistic! "Soon" and "near" are RELATIVE! That's just the way they are! They are called "comparative adverbs," and they DEPEND on the comparison to determine approximate times.

[Alive]

2 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, Alive.

No. The Lord's day was the "Day of the Lord," a particular day in prophetic history when God has had enough, and lets all the promises, good and bad, begin in a deluge of fulfillment.

The "Lord's day" was not just "Sunday!"

Which reminds me, the phrase "this is the day that the Lord hath made," is not just talking about any ol' day! It, too, is talking about that moment in the future.

Roy…please, lets not this. Of course I understand the Day of the Lord being that last day when All things are consummated, but John was not on that day. He was in the first century.

 

The experiment please.

[Retrobyter]

2 minutes ago, Alive said:

Roy…please, lets not this. Of course I understand the Day of the Lord being that last day when All things are consummated, but John was not on that day. He was in the first century.

 

The experiment please.

Shabbat shalom, Alive.

Well, then the experiment is starting with certain boundaries ignored. John was in the first century, but the Day of the Lord is the last day when all things are consummated.

So, "soon" and "near" must be within those boundaries. That's not limited to much!