Question for prewrathers and/or posttribbers

[DeighAnn]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

3. Angels did NOT "mate with women" during Noach's time. Human beings, who had so high an opinion of themselves as to call themselves "sons of God" and thought they were ENTITLED to reverence from other men, TOOK THE DAUGHTERS OF MERE MEN BY FORCE and made them their wives! This human trafficking is what made God so angry!

What do you believe is taking place here?


Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

[AdHoc]

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, AdHoc.

You've got to get a better handle on this. You're not far off, but when God created the MAN (Hebrew: haa'Aadaam, "the Man," NOT "the body of the man") he made a living, air-breathing creature, by puffing into his nostrils the puff of living things. THAT'S what Genesis 2:7 says!

The "heart of the earth" is simply a "core or hollowed out place of the earth." In Yeeshuwa`s case, that was a tomb in which He was laid. Again, "hadees" is Greek for "UNSEEN!" Do you really think that our Lord would be talking about a Greek god or the Greek mythological place of the dead?! He was talking about the fact that when one dies, he is placed in a grave or tomb or sepulcre or crypt OUT OF SIGHT of the living, loved ones he left. "Out of sight is out of mind" which is why most visit cemetaries and tombs - to REMEMBER them! The Hebrew word is "sh'owl" (often written "sheol") and means "ASKED ABOUT," for that is what children do when they are taken to the cemetaries and tombs. They "ASK ABOUT" their departed loved ones!

I'm not going to take a lot of time to show each one of these verse's context; it makes my posts too long and nobody reads them. Instead, just know that the "soul" is the air-breathing-creature, the body that is still breathing, and the "spirit" is the breath of an individual. This "breath" also implies the words and sounds that a person makes WITH that breath, conveying also one's thoughts and opinions to others. Read each of these passages with THESE definitions in place and see if it doesn't make each passage clearer in the reading.

 

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, again, AdHoc.

Actually, 

1. Ge-enna (two epsilons back-to-back without rough breathing) is a transliteration of the Hebrew phrase, "Geey-Hinnowm," referring to the "Valley (of the son) of Hinnowm," the city dump of the Old City of Jerusalem. It is also close to where the kings of Israel and Yhudah ("Judah") placed their judgment seats when judging capital crimes. If a person was acquitted, He was to enter the golden gate ON THE RIGHT to offer sacrifices to God in thanksgiving. If a person was condemned, the sentence was carried out in Geey-ben-Hinnowm ON THE LEFT, where the fires were always burning. When Yeshua` sets up His Judgment Seat, He will likewise judge in that valley.

Matthew 25:31-34, 41 (KJV)

31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand,

"'Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:'
...

41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,

"'Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:'"

 

However, one should realize that it is the JOB of a King of Israel to be the Supreme Court Judge! Thus, He will so judge THROUGHOUT the Millennium, not just at the beginning of the Millennium, when He holds the war tribunal against those nations who participated in the war for His Land, and not just at the end of the Millennium at the Great White Throne Judgment (GWTJ)! The GWTJ is just when the Second General Resurrection will occur for the FINAL Judgment.

2. Sh'owl/hadees is NOT "the place of the souls of dead men!" It is the GRAVE from which these dead men will be raised to life. Those who belong to the Messiah will be raised to eternal life at His Second Coming at the BEGINNING of the Millennium, but those who do NOT belong to Him, will be raised at the END of the Millennium for the GWTJ and the consignment to the Lake of Fire and Sulfur (or the Lake of Burning Sulfur). Sulfur will melt to a liquid and burn with a blue flame that can only be seen in the dark. It gives off sulfur-dioxide when burning in the presence of oxygen, at 320 to 374 degrees Fahrenheit. It's an explosive risk at temperatures above 450 degrees Fahrenheit.

3. Angels did NOT "mate with women" during Noach's time. Human beings, who had so high an opinion of themselves as to call themselves "sons of God" and thought they were ENTITLED to reverence from other men, TOOK THE DAUGHTERS OF MERE MEN BY FORCE and made them their wives! This human trafficking is what made God so angry!

Genesis 6:1-7 (KJV)

1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. 3 And the LORD said,

"My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years!"

4 There were giants (Hebrew: nfaliym = lumberjacks) in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7And the LORD said,

"I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them!"

No mention of angels at all in His judgment, He just said that the MAN was wicked!

I hope this helps.

I agree with you about the AV (the KJV). That's why I use it the most. There are certain times when I will use the NIV, but it's just to make the words more comfortable to the modern English ear. The AV or KJV should probably be called the KJAV, for it was the ONE version of the English Bible that was authorized by King James I of England to be used in England's pulpits.

Thanks for your opinions. But I'm afraid they make some absurdities.

The soul of our Lord Jesus did not go to a "hollow in the grave". It went to "the heart of the earth" (Matt.12:40).

The "sons of God" were around when God made the earth (Job.38:7). I doubt seriously that having a high opinion of oneself will allow you to occupy outer space, breath there and live thousands of years in a vacuum. In Job Chapters 1 and 2 they dwell in heaven.

As to the construction of a man, and what happens at death, I made my case. Our Lord went to Hades, David is still in Hades and the rich man of Luke 16:23 went to Hades. In Revelation the Beast is a dead man - one of five kings who have died - and in resurrection he comes out of the "bottomless pit".

You say there is nothing said about angels of Noah's time?? Try Jude 6-7 and 2nd Peter 2:3-6

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

But nevertheless - God bless.

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

As to the construction of a man, and what happens at death, I made my case. Our Lord went to Hades, David is still in Hades and the rich man of Luke 16:23 went to Hades. In Revelation the Beast is a dead man - one of five kings who have died - and in resurrection he comes out of the "bottomless pit".

Do you see a connection between the the Lord going to Hades and the Ascension and 
 

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

 

Did anyone in Hades believe in Him?  If so, did anything happened to those who did? And do you see any connection between that and

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

What do you believe is meant and WHEN is He speaking to this taking place? 

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed Me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

  
Who do you believe the 'captives' are? 
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because He hath anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor; He hath sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Luke 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Luke 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

Luke 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Do you see any connection between what is above and

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Do you see any connection between the above and 

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

or 

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

and

1 Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.


 

[AdHoc]

49 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Do you see a connection between the the Lord going to Hades and the Ascension and 
 

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

 

Did anyone in Hades believe in Him?  If so, did anything happened to those who did? And do you see any connection between that and

In the Bible, but not English, three words are used for "life": (i) "bios" - the body life supported by the blood and given vitality by the human spirit (Jas.2:26), (ii) "psuche" - the life of the soul, our personality, and (i) zoë - God's life. Man's full salvation is when he possesses all three. So a man is fully saved when he (i) has the new birth - which infuses God's life into his human spirit (Jn.3:6), (ii) he has undergone a transforming work in his soul by the Holy Spirit and is counted worthy to be a co-king with Christ in the Millennium, and (iii) he has his resurrection body like Christ's.

In John 11 our Lord raised Lazarus from the physically dead. Thus, the context is "bios" - physical body-life. But our Lord uses the word "zoë. Why? because it is that life that keeps a man's "bios" going forever. Remember what God said of Adam. If he ate from the Tree of Life he would live forever. "Zoë" guarantees "bios". The thing to heed in verse 25 is the FUTURE TENSE". He "shall live" pointing to resurrection day when Christ comes (1st Cor.15:23)

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

What do you believe is meant and WHEN is He speaking to this taking place? 

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed Me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Up until the resurrection of Jesus, Satan held the power of death. Our Lord's resurrection was in fulfillment of His promise, when introducing the Church, that the gates of Hades would not prevail against His building of the Church. The reason that Hades could prevail is that death renders the BODY useless and Christ's Body is built with BODIES (1st Cor 6:15). Hades is a prison but our Lord Jesus now possesses the KEYS. But except for those few on resurrection day, He has not yet used the keys to the gates of Hades. Thus, it is still "Captivity". The verse does NOT SAY "He led the captives to freedom". It says He led CAPTIVITY captive. That is, it is still Captivity but has a new governor. It will be opened for the Christian when Christ returns (1st Cor.15:23).

As to Matthew 27:53 I have explained that at length - and I assume you read it. I will only briefly say that Jesus was the firstfruits of the dead. God requires a TITHE of the fruits. The resurrection of Jesus is depicted by the "wave offering" of Leviticus 23. The wave offering had to be a sheaf. God was not satisfied with one corn. Those who were resurrected just after Christ where those who made up the sheaf as firstfruits of the dead. Scripture does not say which glory they had, but it does says that they were recognized. I assume that to be a firstfruit they would have had "celestial glory". It is noteworthy that David was not one of them. In Acts 2 David is neither left Hades nor ascended to heaven.

[iamlamad]

On 9/20/2022 at 10:32 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

That's just nuts when you think about what the words mean: "Our breathing part is our mind, memories, emotions, affections and most of all our WILL. Our breath and air-breathing-creature are tied very closely together and will never be separated. Where our breath goes, so goes the air-breathing-creature." Do you HEAR how ridiculous that sounds?!

Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") gave up His breath! Yeeshuwa` never went a "hell!" He went to the GRAVE, to Sh'owl ("asked about")!

What this is saying is that "God's word is life-giving and powerful and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even the the dividing asunder of an air-breathing-creature from its breath, and of the joints (cartilege) and marrow (the center of bones, carving each away from the bone itself), and is a determiner between the thoughts and the background intentions of the core of one's being!"

While a person is an air-breathing-creature, he is dependent upon his breath, but God's Word can quickly separate a person from his breath!

It seems you don't know the difference been the human spirit and human soul. 
It seems you know know where Hades really is, and what the English term is.
 

Were do you find "our breathing part" has anything to do with our soul?
Breathing is what our BODY does to stay alive. When the spirit and soul leave a dead or dying body, do you imagine your spirit person has to breath?

[iamlamad]

On 9/20/2022 at 5:01 PM, AdHoc said:

I understand that the dead RISE. In death we are unclean and naked. Death is God's enemy. And there is not a single scripture that says that dead men go to heaven. Even our Lord Jesus went to Hades (Matt.12:40, Eph.4:8-9). After He ROSE He still had not "ascended" to the Father (Jn.20:17). The Old Testament saints who rose after Jesus came out of graves that had to be opened. In Revelation 20 "Hades gives up the dead". In 1st Thessalonians 4 the dead Christians RISE, meet the living on the surface of the earth and then "TOGETHER" are caught away. This only when the Lord "descends".

Do you understand that God will raise that same dead body that died - no mater if it has long since turned to dust - God will bring that dust back together and reform the body that died, then change it to a resurrection body. When I get mine, it is going to be MY body. If I had to guess, my guess would be, God will do this on a subatomic level. Please keep in mind, it is only this flesh and blood "house" we live in that will die. The real us, our spirit with our soul, will not miss one thought between being inside our body and outside after the body quits functioning. Do we agree?

[iamlamad]

On 9/20/2022 at 4:33 PM, AdHoc said:

O.K. You're entitled to think that, but I think that Ecclesiastes 3:21 and 12:7 are defining, especially when we see that the soul goes DOWN to Hades. In eleven cases of a man's death in Old and New Testament he "gave UP the spirit" our Lord Jesus included. And we know that God did not let His SOUL abide in Hades (in the heart of the earth - Matt.12:40).

Perhaps not so defining but equally interesting is the fact that our spirit is Made (from existing materials - "Asah" Heb.) while our soul is "CREATED" (as a new creature - "Bara" Heb.). In Genesis 2:7 the soul is made of breath, but the soul "BECAME" ... indicating that it was not there before. Isaiah 43:7 seems to confirm this.

Perhaps another difficulty with your understanding is the rebirth. In John 3:6 the rebirth by the Holy Spirit is only for the human spirit. John 4:24 confirms this. I think that if the soul and spirit were so inseparable that the rebirth would affect the soul as well.

Mary, in Luke 1:46–47, had different reactions for her soul and spirit when she heard the news of her pregnancy - not defining, but interesting.

46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

The spirit of man has the rebirth, but the soul of man is "saved" by fiery trials (1st Pet.1:6-8. The single case of the spirit being saved is by the violent death of the body (1st Cor.5).

I guess it boils down to how each of us applies the Word.

Blessings

HOW did Mary magnify the Lord? She thought thoughts, then spoke those thoughts. I believe her spirit was in agreement. But at that time her spirit was not born again. I think their spirits in those days were well trained to love God. Therefore, her thought of praise originated in her spirit.  

I have been "in the spirit" and my senses were suspended. I could not "think." My body was suspended. I could not move. But my spirit man spoke and answered God.

Often rebirth does affect the soul. I know of some people that were alcoholics and were instantly delivered when they were born again. Same with cigarettes. Others though were not. I don't know why. Being born again certainly affects one's desires. Someone that never read the bible suddenly devours it. Someone that never went to church, goes every time the doors are opened.

The human mind (someone's thinking) will need to be renewed by soaking in the Word of God. For example, the bible tells us that God will supply all our needs, but it is only words on paper or thoughts in our mind until those words gets down into our heart. Then God can bring it to pass.

I think the "breath" that God breathed into Adam was a HUMAN SPIRIT. It was what brought LIFE to that created body. God created, along with the body, a pretty much empty mind and soul. I can guess that when Adam came alive, he knew absolutely nothing.

In the last 6000 years or so, science has not figured out the difference between the mind (part of the soul) and the physical brain. There can be no doubt, when the rich man went to hell, he knew he had been rich. He had all his memories. So memories seem to be stored in our physical brain, but also in a non-materialistic soul. 

Quote

our spirit is Made (from existing materials

Yet, for Adam, God blew that spirit from Himself into Adam.

There is a great disagreement about the human spirit: some preachers teach that the human spirit is created with conception right along with the physical conception. Others teach that spirits are sent from God at conception. 

The spirit and soul of a righteous man today goes UP, not down. Paul said to be absent from the body would be to be present with the Lord. There are many testimonies of people who have died, gone to heaven and got to look around, but were sent back because someone prayed. Do you not believe these many testimonies? There are others that God just took to heaven to show it off, and they did not die - only left their bodies behind.

The problem is, there are few scriptures about this subject. "Soul" is used most often for the complete human being, but not always.

 

 

[iamlamad]

On 9/20/2022 at 2:27 PM, DeighAnn said:

I keep hearing people say that.  SURE would be a welcome relief to see it written somewhere in the WORDS OF GOD but the only Scripture I can find for those waiting 'to be resurrected' when Christ returns,  ARE THE DEAD.  

Who 'rises' when Christ returns?  THE DEAD.  

Who 'rises' when Christ returns?  THE DEAD.  

 

No, only dead bodies rise. The person who once lived in that body will be returning with Jesus.

Edited September 22, 2022 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

On 9/20/2022 at 2:27 PM, DeighAnn said:

WHERE IS IT WRITTEN THOSE who NEVER DIE 'will be raised'. 

Where is it written those who have been 'made alive' 'will be raised'?  
 

1 Thessalonians 4 & 5.
1 Corinthians 15.

There are three kinds of death: Learn the difference.

Physical death - where the house we are now living in quits functioning.
Spiritual death - a human spirit and soul SEPARATED from God by sin.
Eternal death - Eternal separation from God. When someone in the state of spiritual death dies physically. Unless someone prays hard, or unless someone raises them from the dead, they will end up in eternal death.

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Who 'rises' when Christ returns?  THE DEAD.  

 

No, only dead bodies rise. The person who once lived in that body will be returning with Jesus.

No, dead bodies GO BACK TO DUST.  You've read and  know that.  

The body that you sow isn't the body that rises, you've read and know that

It is sown a natural body it is raised a spiritual body you've read and know that


There are two bodies.  NOT ONE BODY made into two.  How is it you don't know that?


Show me where you are getting your information and I will show you WORD FOR WORD SCRIPTURE that says EXACTLY WHAT I AM SAYING.  


If you CAN  NOT do that, then you need to figure out HOW is it possible for me to BELIEVE EXACTLY what is written and that NOT be truth 

while what you believe what ISN'T WRITTEN ANYWHERE BUT that is the truth.



One way are the words of GOD, the other is the traditions of man.  Where are you standing?  If you are standing in the wrong place, what does it take to get to the right one?  

Truly it is that simple.  HOW could we all stay on the same path if no one believes WHAT IS WRITTEN in favor of everyone giving a  different meaning to what is?  

It is sown a natural body it is raised a spiritual body.  THAT IS WHAT I BELIEVE.  Exactly.  Word for word.  No explanations necessary.  That is what happens, that is exactly what is written,  HOW CAN THAT BE WRONG? 




YOU, if I have it correct,  believe

It is sown a natural body and then there is a separation of soul and body for a while while one part goes to the grave and the other to heaven and then there is a return of the part that went to heaven and when that part returns the part that went to the grave is raised up and they are then joined back together in what becomes a 'glorified spiritual ' body raised up on the last day OUT FROM THE DEAD.  

WHERE IS ANY SCRIPTURE for ALL OF THAT  and what Scripture makes null and void the Scriptures I currently believe?


Looking forward to the answers to those questions

 

Edited September 22, 2022 by DeighAnn
added what