Question for prewrathers and/or posttribbers

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

It truly amazes me how you NOW CLAIM  8 Adamic souls as 

When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

How could anyone ever learn the Bible when what is written NEVER means just that.  

Shalom, DeighAnn.

Why can't anything you THINK should be so GRANDIOSE be just what it is, a SIMPLE explanation?

The "morning stars" could indeed be "supernatural messengers" or "angels." But, the "sons of God" are HUMAN BEINGS who can BE "children of God!" Angels CANNOT!

[DeighAnn]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

ONLY to those who are RESISTANT to what the Scriptures have to say!

what is written  A. at the altar   or    B. present themselves

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
 

You believe your way and I believe mine.  

Yet you see me as the one RESISTANT to the Scriptures.  Interesting. 

 

 

[DeighAnn]

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, DeighAnn.

Why can't anything you THINK should be so GRANDIOSE be just what it is, a SIMPLE explanation?

The "morning stars" could indeed be "supernatural messengers" or "angels." But, the "sons of God" are HUMAN BEINGS who can BE "children of God!" Angels CANNOT!

I have no idea how to read that sentence.  


I have no problem with what is written simply being what is meant.  That would be you.  Again, you making statements and or claims without Scripture doesn't make it Gods Truth, just yours.   

[Retrobyter]

2 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

what is written  A. at the altar   or    B. present themselves

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
 

You believe your way and I believe mine.  

Yet you see me as the one RESISTANT to the Scriptures.  Interesting. 

Shalom, DeighAnn.

Drop the "at the altar," if you'd like. I was presenting it as a possible reason why they were presenting themselves before YHWH, like Moses and Joshua presented themselves before YHWH in the tabernacle. Nothing is said about the "altar" in that passage either.

The question is: WHY did they "present themselves (take their stand) before YHWH?" And, why did YHWH say to haSatan, "Where'd YOU come from?!" and What did Iyov (Job)  have to do with the "sons of God?" YHWH'S assessment of Iyov was that he was "mature/complete and straight-as-an-arrow, one who fears God and shuns evil."

In all of these questions, I see absolutely NO NEED for these "sons of God" to be "angels." They are not called "angels," nor are angels allowed to be sons of God! (Hebrews 1). Being "sons of God" is a privilege given to those who believe that Yeeshuwa` is the Messiah of God.

1 John 5:1-2 (KJV)

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

Heh, believe what you want to believe. Just know that what you believe about passage after passage are all cumulative! And, they will GREATLY affect how your theology is built.

[Justin Adams]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

The text is SPECIFICALLY haSatan.

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

I have no idea how to read that sentence.  


I have no problem with what is written simply being what is meant.  That would be you.  Again, you making statements and or claims without Scripture doesn't make it Gods Truth, just yours.   

Shalom, DeighAnn.

I'll try to clear it up for you:

Why can't (anything you THINK should be so GRANDIOSE) be just what it is, (a SIMPLE explanation)?

You're thinking that "all the sons of God shouted for joy" means, I don't know, maybe millions of angels shouting for joy. That's a GRANDIOSE understanding of that verse.

But, if you keep it simple, namely that the "all the sons (children) of God" are the eight who were saved from the Flood - all who were left! - then it is a much simpler explanation of what the verse means. They are happy to step on firm ground again!

See, it's the grandiose understanding that wants to say these "sons of God" are angels. It's the simple understanding that keeps the "sons of God" human beings who can indeed be God's children.

[DeighAnn]

36 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

In all of these questions, I see absolutely NO NEED for these "sons of God" to be "angels." They are not called "angels," nor are angels allowed to be sons of God! (Hebrews 1). Being "sons of God" is a privilege given to those who believe that Yeeshuwa` is the Messiah of God.

1.  Satan came FROM the earth
2.  Satan was in the midst of them
3.  They were standing before God

I understand you don't like the fallen angels being on earth to impregnate the daughters of men hence all this.  We don't agree.  Why we can't agree to disagree is beyond me.  I think you have put forward your belief.  As I have.  Going back and forth isn't doing any thing positive that I can see.  This is no more than the same discussion on souls and heaven.  We don't see them the same.  You think it is about dissecting I think it is about building.  You think it is found in  definitions I think it is found in the spirit of context.  I don't know why we need to go past you put forth your belief I put forth mine anymore.  We are so far apart it will take an act of God to fix it, in my opinion. I don't want to argue words with you.  We never build upon anything so thank you for you time, I'll let your next posts go so you can have the last word.  Thank you for your time 

 

[DeighAnn]

22 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, DeighAnn.

I'll try to clear it up for you:

Why can't (anything you THINK should be so GRANDIOSE) be just what it is, (a SIMPLE explanation)?

You're thinking that "all the sons of God shouted for joy" means, I don't know, maybe millions of angels shouting for joy. That's a GRANDIOSE understanding of that verse.

But, if you keep it simple, namely that the "all the sons (children) of God" are the eight who were saved from the Flood - all who were left! - then it is a much simpler explanation of what the verse means. They are happy to step on firm ground again!

See, it's the grandiose understanding that wants to say these "sons of God" are angels. It's the simple understanding that keeps the "sons of God" human beings who can indeed be God's children.

the waters abated.  There wasn't any laying down the foundation of the earth.  I'll not trade insults with you

[Retrobyter]

4 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

the waters abated.  There wasn't any laying down the foundation of the earth.  I'll not trade insults with you

Shalom, DeighAnn.

There's no such thing as a "Tranquil Flood." Do you think the Grand Canyon was cut tranquilly? There was nothing "tranquil" about it! Do you know HOW the "waters abated?"

Genesis 8:1-3 (KJV)

1 And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters asswaged; 2 The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained; 3 And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated.

So, God made a wind to pass over the earth, i.e., this is no small WIND! I think it was the initiation of the jet stream, but such a powerful one that it reached sea level! So, the waters subsided.

God also stopped the "fountains of the deep," and He stopped the "windows of heaven." So, He stopped the influx of water, and He blew across the seas and began the subsiding of the waters. There's also one other thing that God did:

Psalm 104:1-12 (KJV)

1 Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.
2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:
3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:
4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
6 Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.
7 At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away.
8 They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them. (Hebrew: יַעֲל֣וּ הָ֭רִים יֵרְד֣וּ בְקָעֹ֑ות אֶל־מְ֝קֹ֗ום זֶ֤ה ׀ יָסַ֬דְתָּ לָהֶֽם׃ = "went-up mountains went-down valleys to-a-standing-place which you-founded for-them." = "Mountains went up valleys went down to a standing place which you founded for them.")
9 Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.
10 He sendeth the springs into the valleys, which run among the hills.
11 They give drink to every beast of the field: the wild asses quench their thirst.
12 By them shall the fowls of the heaven have their habitation, which sing among the branches.

He raised the mountains and lowered the valleys to new heights and depths. It's a see-saw effect: The weight of the water pushed the valleys down and the mountains were pushed up on the other side of the fulcrum.

The lower end of the continent of Asia, India and Pakistan and Bangladesh seems to have "snapped north" and triggered the heights of the Himalayas.

All around the oceans, at a certain distance from the shoreline, the oceans sank deeper, leaving a continental shelf. At about the same distance inland, mountain ranges were formed.

[DeighAnn]

46 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

There's no such thing as a "Tranquil Flood." Do you think the Grand Canyon was cut tranquilly?

No I think it was cut when 

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

And I think that happened after Satans fall when 

Jeremiah 4:19 My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war.

Jeremiah 4:20 Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment.

Jeremiah 4:21 How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet?

Jeremiah 4:22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

Jeremiah 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

Jeremiah 4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

Jeremiah 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

Jeremiah 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

Jeremiah 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

Jeremiah 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

Which I believe is spoken of 


 

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 Peter 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

2 Peter 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

NOT HERE BECAUSE THIS IS SPEAKING OF THE FLOOD OF NOAHS TIME

2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

2Peter 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

2Peter 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

2Peter 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

2Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

2Peter 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

2Peter 2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

2Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2Peter 2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

2Peter 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

2Peter 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

2Peter 2:16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

2Peter 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

2Peter 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

2Peter 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

2Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

2Peter 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

2Peter 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

2Peter 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

2Peter 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

2Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

2Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.



BUT HERE.  I think that making sure to put NOAHS flood first is brilliant so that NO ONE WOULD THINK THIS TO BE NOAHS FLOOD AGAIN.  You wouldn't believe how many try to say it is!!!   EVEN though it says PERISHED.  


 

2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

2 Peter 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2Peter 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

2Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

2Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

2Peter 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

2Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

2Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

2Peter 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

2Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.