Question for prewrathers and/or posttribbers

[iamlamad]

On 9/20/2022 at 4:33 PM, AdHoc said:

Perhaps not so defining but equally interesting is the fact that our spirit is Made (from existing materials - "Asah" Heb.) while our soul is "CREATED" (as a new creature - "Bara" Heb.). In Genesis 2:7 the soul is made of breath, but the soul "BECAME" ... indicating that it was not there before. Isaiah 43:7 seems to confirm this.

Perhaps you can expand on this. I looked up soul and spirit used in Hebrews and found psyche and Pneuma. AH! You did not mean the book of Hebrews, you meant Hebrew language. Got it.

I always fall back on what a bible school professor said: always filter OT verses through the NT because the New is a newer and more complete revelation.

Edited October 10, 2022 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

On 9/23/2022 at 11:11 AM, DeighAnn said:

Will you be crucified?  Will you be going to hell for 3 days? Will your blood be of infinite value?  Will you be brining in a New Covenant?  Will you be tasting death us?  Will you be taking on the sins of the world?  Will you be leading the captives captive?  Will God be raising you up?  Will the graves be opened when you are raised up?  Will you be going to prepare a place for us?  

SEEMS HIS DEATH AND RESURRECTION ARE DIFFERENT THAN EVERYONES.  


You can keep saying it but you have NO SCRIPTURE for that either.  He is our example on SUFFERING and being a SOLDIER and STANDING, no matter what the cost for the words of God through all types of tribulation...for carrying our cross, for dying to find life and not LOOKING TO SAVE IT



OH WAIT, but not for the church.  Isn't it funny how WHEN IT IS CONVENIENT you want to follow Him but when it's 'GREAT' tribulation then NO WAY is He your example.  You know all that DEATH taking place that GOD would NEVER DO to the church, so the GENTILE CHURCH says.  


Better take a look at what is written and what isn't and write them all down, because there are some serious flaws going on here as some falling backwards.   

 

He, Jesus, was the FIRSTfruits of the resurrection.
That hints strongly of SECONDfruits, THIRDfruits etc.

Was the firstfruits of the OT harvests the same as what was harvested later?

Your argument does not hold water.

You could have written:

Did Jesus' spirit come back to the same physical body He left?
Did He raise up that SAME body that he left those 3 days and 3 nights before?

You know the answer is yes for both questions. 

Why would you imagine it will be different for us?

[DeighAnn]

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You missed the entire conversation.

There has been ONLY ONE RESURRECTION: that is of Jesus Christ. All the dead in Christ are STILL DEAD speaking of their bodies. If their bodies has not completely turned to dust, if we dug up the graves, we would find their bones. 

 


And THE GRAVES WERE OPENED.  I did not WRITE that.  SOME of them were seen of SOME people.   I didn't write that either.  

Read Isaiah 61 and read what He said He was accomplishing.  

Come on out of the OLD TESTAMENT and into the new.   Get out of the DEATH AND SIN and c0me on over to the CLEANSING BLOOD OF THE LAMB SLAIN

NO SIN- NO DEATH.  
Washed clean
pass through death
never die
follow Him
He brings back with Him
fellows servant in heaven
souls under the altar
God of the LIVING AND NOT THE DEAD
made alive in Christ
died and risen with CHRIST
He is the resurrection
He is the LIFE
Made a new creature
if this body dissolved have a body in heaven
2 bodies
to be absent from the body to be with the Lord
made a new creature
YES, there are 2 bodies. 
every SEED A BODY   no 'bodyless' seeds running around.  


WHY is there STILL a resurrection WHEN JESUS returns?  Who is it that rise OUT FROM THE GRAVE?

THE DEAD.  Not the living.  Not those who never die.  Not those who have followed Him.  Not those who have received the gift of Salvation.  Not those under the blood of the Lamb slain.  Not those who He set free.  Not those who were in bondage.  



BUT, SOME OF THE DEAD at His return, other dead not till the end but none the less THE DEAD aka
those who have NEVER BEEN SAVED, those who never repented, had no light, were not made new creatures, loved the ways of the world more than the Lord, were of their father the devil, of the synagogue of Satan, took the mark of the beast, the Jews said couldn't follow Him 
BECAUSE THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH

those who DIDN'T 

rise up when they died, but they DESCENDED,

THEY WENT TO THE PLACE OF THE DEAD.  They don't get to rise up until Christ returns.  They NEVER get to be brought to God up in heaven.  They don't stand at the Judgment seat of Christ they are those who in a 1000 years THE DEAD who WILL BE JUDGED.  THE DEAD who will either receive immortality or 2nd death.  The judgment the LIVING, priests and ruling WITH HIM don't stand at judgment.  

THOSE who were raised up to heaven don't have to worry.  They ALREADY stood in judgment, when they glorified God with their death and went to the judgment seat of Christ when Jesus  brought them to GOD.  They, THE NEVER DIE, the Living are  with Him and when He returns, 

THAT IS WHEN THE DEAD rise up.  THE DEAD don't 'go into the air' to be ever with the Lord because THE DEAD haven't stood in judgment YET.  THE DEAD have never been SAVED.  Some of

THE DEAD will rise up and  be taught by the PRIESTS and to be ruled over by the ROD OF IRON for the next 1000 years and then to stand in JUDGMENT AT THE GWTJ.  

Everyone keeps saying things that ARENT WRITTEN like it is Gods Truth and the THINGS THAT ARE WRITTEN like they are not.  

THE DEAD RISE when Christ returns NOT THE LIVING.  The LIVING don't rise at Christs return because THEY ALREADY ROSE and followed HIM.  READ ! THESS 4:13 14 15 SO you too can catch the SUBJECT/  


Those made ALIVE are returning HAVING ALREADY BEEN RAISED.  Do you REALLY think PAUL was desiring to be 'in the grave' for the next 2000 years?

WHAT is a MAN?  a body and spirit is how GOD MADE 'a living soul' and to every SEED a body.  

[Retrobyter]

15 hours ago, luigi said:

Shalom and peace to you also Retrobyter,

The Lord provides us many correlations in His Word in order to verify what is being described. In my previous post to you I provided some of these correlations which verify that the Lord is within those who love, which therefore also verifies the kingdom of God/heaven is within those who love.

Shalom, luigi.

Wrong Person, brother. The Ruwach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) of God is within each one of us, but the Lord and Messiah Yeeshuwa` is not. He is away from this planet right now, but will return when the Father says it's time.

How do we know this?

John 14:1-3 (KJV)

1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

Note: He NEVER said where we would be going after being received by Him! To assume that His disciples - which includes us - we would be going back with Him to His Father's house where He had been preparing a place for us is wishful thinking. Some people think it's implied, but the truth is WE DON'T KNOW from THIS passage where we'll be going next!

Acts 1:6-9 (KJV)

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying,

"Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"

7 And he said unto them,

"It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power (Greek: exousia = "authority"). 8 But ye shall receive power (Greek: dunamin = "strength; might"), after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

These were His last words to His disciples, which we trust includes us. THEN, we read:

Acts 1:10-11 (KJV)

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said,

"Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

I believe that it's VERY IMPORTANT to note that each of the four times that we find the word "heaven" comes from the Greek word "ouranos," which I believe context tells us means the "sky":

Acts 1:10-11 (KJV)

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven (Greek: hoos atenizontes heesan eis ton ouranon = "as looking-intently they-were into the sky") as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said,

"Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? (Greek: ti hesteekate blepontes eis ton ouranon; = 'why do-ye-stand looking into the sky?') this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven (Greek: analeemftheis af' humoon eis ton ouranon = 'having-been-taken-up away-from you into the sky'), shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven (Greek: eleusetai hon tropon etheasasthe auton poreuomenon eis ton ouranon = 'will-come in-that manner you-beheld Him going into the sky')."

"The KINGDOM of heaven," "hee basileia toon ouranoon," I believe has the words "toon ouranoon" in the ablative case, rather than the genitive case, showing origin, not ownership. Thus, it is my opinion that the words should be translated "the Kingdom from-the skies," NOT "the Kingdom of-the skies." It certainly doesn't mean "IN the skies!" His Kingdom comes from the skies, because HE comes from the skies when He returns! He told a parable to this effect:

Luke 19:11-15ff (KJV)

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore,

"A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them,

"'Occupy till I come.'

14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying,

"'We will not have this man to reign over us!'

15 "And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. ..."

This is PRECISELY how it will happen! Obviously, Yeeshuwa` (Jesus) Himself is the "certain nobleman." And, the leaders of Israel (Judah in particular) are "His citizens [who] hated Him." Nevertheless, when He returns, He will have received the Kingdom from His Father and shall begin to give commands!

Matthew 25:31-46, which He did NOT call a "parable," gives us additional info:

Matthew 25:31-33ff (KJV)

31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. ..."

and "glory" (Greek: doxa) is not a place; it means "brightness" or "fame!" The word actually means "that which makes something apparent," as a king in splendor or a star against a night sky!

None of this has happened, yet. Therefore, the Kingdom from the skies hasn't begun, yet! Now, don't get me wrong: We can view ourselves as His subjects PREMATURELY, but the Kingdom from the skies hasn't come, yet, and won't until the Messiah - the One Anointed to be King - has come! Thus, His Kingdom hasn't come, yet! As one views himself or herself as a subject of that FUTURE Kingdom, one can follow the rules of that Kingdom prematurely and show love to others, but that DOES NOT mean that the "Kingdom is within him or her!"

I truly hope that you can understand what I'm trying to say here, because I believe it will help you in the long run to make the transition needed when the Messiah returns and sets up His Kingdom in Israel. This will make for a HUGE paradigm shift for many Christians!

[DeighAnn]

40 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

What Body does Jesus have NOW? Did you forget that His NOW body still has nail holes in it?

HE is the prototype!

REALLY?  Do we go and preach to the dead?  Are we the Lamb Scarified?  Do the sins of the world fall upon us?   Was it prophesized we would take the sins of the world upon us?   Was there a REASON that His body was not found when it wouldn't make a difference if ours was? 

GOING to the furthest extreme TO TRY AND MAKE A POINT and picking out ONE THING when EVERYTHING about His death and resurrection is different 

SAYS  QUITE ENOUGH for me anyhow.  Hopefully others see the same thnkg.  


NO, JESUS is not the PROTOTYPE.  HE IS THE EXCEPTION.  He is the LAMB SLAIN.  HE is WAY DIFFERENT.  HE IS THE LIFE.   HE IS THE RESURRECTION.  

WE FOLLOW.  You want HIS death and resurrection?  

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

 
And THE GRAVES WERE OPENED.  I did not WRITE that.  SOME of them were seen of SOME people.   I didn't write that either.  
 

You are right here, and I was wrong; Jesus resurrected "many" of the Elders of the OT when He rose. We don't know how many or who they were.

My point still stands, since then there have been NO resurrections for God is waiting for the fullness of the Gentiles to come in before He sends Jesus to get His church. Then it will be resurrection day for the dead in Christ. 

It will be the body that died that will be resurrected, just as Jesus came back to HIS body, all those spirits of the dead in Christ who have been with Jesus in heaven will come WITH HIM to rejoin with their bodies.

[DeighAnn]

15 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

He, Jesus, was the FIRSTfruits of the resurrection.
That hints strongly of SECONDfruits, THIRDfruits etc.

Was the firstfruits of the OT harvests the same as what was harvested later?

OF THEM THAT SLEPT.  

And everyone that NEVER DIES, every man in HIS OWN ORDER,  Not every man at the same time

So yes, there are MANY RESURRECTIONS and like a thief in the night, has been coming EVER SINCE to appear without sin unto salvation for those who die HAVING BEEN SAVED while they yet live.  

The bible wasn't written to the FINAL GENERATION only.  Souls have need to be ready at any given moment UNEXPECTEDLY every since.  Don't fall into the ways of this world stands for everyone of every generation.  

YES, there will be a HARVEST of the end times.  WHEAT AND TARES. 

Tares going to die WHEAT, the alive and remaining will be changed.  That is what is written.  

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

REALLY?  Do we go and preach to the dead?  Are we the Lamb Scarified?  Do the sins of the world fall upon us?   Was it prophesized we would take the sins of the world upon us?   Was there a REASON that His body was not found when it wouldn't make a difference if ours was? 

GOING to the furthest extreme TO TRY AND MAKE A POINT and picking out ONE THING when EVERYTHING about His death and resurrection is different 

SAYS  QUITE ENOUGH for me anyhow.  Hopefully others see the same thnkg.  


NO, JESUS is not the PROTOTYPE.  HE IS THE EXCEPTION.  He is the LAMB SLAIN.  HE is WAY DIFFERENT.  HE IS THE LIFE.   HE IS THE RESURRECTION.  

WE FOLLOW.  You want HIS death and resurrection?  

We are not the Redeemer - Jesus was. But He came back to HIS body just as the dead in Christ who are in heaven will come back for THEIR bodies. 

Perhaps you need to read this again: From the dictionary:

 the resurrection : the event told about in the Bible in which dead people will be brought back to life before the day of final judgment

It is their "dead" bodies that will be raised.
 

"Resurrection" as a word is never used of spirits - only of bodies.

 

[DeighAnn]

1 minute ago, iamlamad said:

You are right here, and I was wrong; Jesus resurrected "many" of the Elders of the OT when He rose. We don't know how many or who they were.

My point still stands, since then there have been NO resurrections for God is waiting for the fullness of the Gentiles to come in before He sends Jesus to get His church. Then it will be resurrection day for the dead in Christ. 

It will be the body that died that will be resurrected, just as Jesus came back to HIS body, all those spirits of the dead in Christ who have been with Jesus in heaven will come WITH HIM to rejoin with their bodies.

THAT ISN'T WRITTEN.  

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.


What PART of NEVER DIE do you see as being a part of being resurrected out from the dead?  


And we DO know who all was resurrected when Christ rose.   HE LOST NONE OF THOSE GOD GAVE TO HIM.  


IN CHRIST.  That would be two and they are not BURIED so they are not raised OUT FROM THE DEAD.  

 

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and THE DEAD shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

OF THEM THAT SLEPT.  

And everyone that NEVER DIES, every man in HIS OWN ORDER,  Not every man at the same time

So yes, there are MANY RESURRECTIONS and like a thief in the night, has been coming EVER SINCE to appear without sin unto salvation for those who die HAVING BEEN SAVED while they yet live.  

The bible wasn't written to the FINAL GENERATION only.  Souls have need to be ready at any given moment UNEXPECTEDLY every since.  Don't fall into the ways of this world stands for everyone of every generation.  

YES, there will be a HARVEST of the end times.  WHEAT AND TARES. 

Tares going to die WHEAT, the alive and remaining will be changed.  That is what is written.  

Of them that slept means they DIED. Their physical body quit working. The heart stopped pumping.

Revelation tells us there are only TWO resurrections: one for the righteous and one for the rest of humanity. Jesus was the firstfruits of the chief of resurrections, the one John called "the first resurrection."

The dead in Christ will make the second wave of this first resurrection.

Then "on the last day" the OT saints will be the third wave of this chief of resurrections.

Do you just not understand that when Jesus said those that believe in Him will never die - that He was talking about SPIRITUAL life and SPIRITUAL death? Do you not understand that if Jesus taries YOUR BODY will quit working and YOU will die a physical death?