Question for prewrathers and/or posttribbers

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

Oh, it's there, but you may have to dig a little to see it.

First, one must be convinced of WHEN Yeeshuwa` was born. One must first assume that the minute that Miryam (Mary) accepted God's will for her to be the mother of the Messiah, God created His Son from "the seed of the woman" within her.

Second, one must understand that this made her six months apart from EliysheVah (Elizabeth) and one must understand that Zacharyahuw's (Zacharias') time off (being in the "course of AViyahuw [Abia or Abijah]," the 8th order out of 24) after he received the prophecy about John's birth, places John's birth (nine months after the conception) in Nisan. Here's the account in Luke:

Luke 1:5-38 (KJV)

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. 7 And they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and they both were now well stricken in years.

8 And it came to pass, that while he executed the priest's office before God in the order of his course, 9 According to the custom of the priest's office, his lot was to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord. 10 And the whole multitude of the people were praying without (outside) at the time of incense. 11 And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense. 12 And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him. 13 But the angel said unto him,

"Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. 14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. 15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. 16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. 17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

18 And Zacharias said unto the angel,

"Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years."

19 And the angel answering said unto him,

"I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings. 20 And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season."

21 And the people waited for Zacharias, and marvelled that he tarried so long in the temple. 22 And when he came out, he could not speak unto them: and they perceived that he had seen a vision in the temple: for he beckoned unto them, and remained speechless. 23 And it came to pass, that, as soon as the days of his ministration were accomplished, he departed to his own house.

24 And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, and hid herself five months, saying, 

25 "Thus hath the Lord dealt with me in the days wherein he looked on me, to take away my reproach among men."

26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said,

"Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women!"

29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

34 Then said Mary unto the angel,

"How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?"

35 And the angel answered and said unto her,

"The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. 36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. 37 For with God nothing shall be impossible."

38 And Mary said,

"Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word."

And the angel departed from her.

The course of AViyah is found in 1 Chronicles 24:10.

1 Chronicles 24:1-19 (KJV)

1 Now these are the divisions of the sons of Aaron. The sons of Aaron; Nadab, and Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar. 2 But Nadab and Abihu died before their father, and had no children: therefore Eleazar and Ithamar executed the priest's office. 3 And David distributed them, both Zadok of the sons of Eleazar, and Ahimelech of the sons of Ithamar, according to their offices in their service. 4 And there were more chief men found of the sons of Eleazar than of the sons of Ithamar; and thus were they divided. Among the sons of Eleazar there were sixteen chief men of the house of their fathers, and eight among the sons of Ithamar according to the house of their fathers. 5 Thus were they divided by lot, one sort with another; for the governors of the sanctuary, and governors of the house of God, were of the sons of Eleazar, and of the sons of Ithamar. 6 And Shemaiah the son of Nethaneel the scribe, one of the Levites, wrote them before the king, and the princes, and Zadok the priest, and Ahimelech the son of Abiathar, and before the chief of the fathers of the priests and Levites: one principal household being taken for Eleazar, and one taken for Ithamar.

7 Now

the first lot came forth to Jehoiarib,
the second to Jedaiah, 
8 The third to Harim,
the fourth to Seorim, 
9 The fifth to Malchijah,
the sixth to Mijamin, 
10 The seventh to Hakkoz,
the eighth to Abijah, 
11 The ninth to Jeshua,
the tenth to Shecaniah, 
12 The eleventh to Eliashib,
the twelfth to Jakim, 
13 The thirteenth to Huppah,
the fourteenth to Jeshebeab, 
14 The fifteenth to Bilgah,
the sixteenth to Immer, 
15 The seventeenth to Hezir,
the eighteenth to Aphses, 
16 The nineteenth to Pethahiah,
the twentieth to Jehezekel, 
17 The one and twentieth to Jachin,
the two and twentieth to Gamul, 
18 The three and twentieth to Delaiah,
the four and twentieth to Maaziah. 

19 These were the orderings of them in their service to come into the house of the LORD, according to their manner, under Aaron their father, as the LORD God of Israel had commanded him.

Each of these 24 courses served half a month in the Temple with all coming together to serve on principle holy days. The first month of the year for religious purposes in Israel was Nisan, so the 8th course would be the latter half of the fourth month, Tammuz. So, sometime at the beginning of the fifth month, Av, John was conceived. Thus, he would have been born within the first month, Nisan, of the next year. Six months later at the beginning of the month Tishrei, Yeeshuwa` (Jesus) would have been born. 

I can't prove it because there's not enough data, but I believe that Yeeshuwa` was born on the first day of Sukkowt and that He was circumcised on the last day of Sukkowt, the eighth day.

I believe this is in sync with John's words:

John 1:14 (KJV)

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt (Greek: eskeenoosen = "he-dwelt-as-in-a-tent; tabernacled") among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 

Luke said,

Luke 3:21-23ff (KJV)

21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, 22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said,

"Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased."

23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli, ... 

Then, His genealogy is listed all the way back to God Himself. Then, He goes into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil for forty days, and then He begins His ministry.

(Luke 3:23-4:15) So, all one has to do is count the number of Passover celebrations between this point and His death, recognizing that the last Passover was when He died, and one has the number of years of His ministry!

This information is best found in a Harmony of the Gospels, just as that of Benjamin Davies, Editor (Bob Jones University Press, Greenville, SC, 1976).

The first Passover was in John 2:13-25. = 1/2 year (from Tishrei to Nisan)
The second Passover was in John 5:1-47. = 1-1/2 years
The third Passover was in Matthew 15:1-20 and Mark 7:1-23. = 2-1/2 years
And, of course, the fourth Passover was in Matthew 26:17-19; Mark 14:12-16; Luke 22:7-13; and John 13:1-20. = 3-1/2 years.

First, it wasn't Daniel; it was Gabriel.

Second, he didn't insert the GAP at that point; all he said in verse 25 is that it was "AFTER the 62 weeks." 

Daniel 9:26 (KJV)

26 "And AFTER threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

He did not say "at the end of"; He said "AFTER!" In mathematical terms, that means a HALF-LINE in time, from the point of the end of the 62 weeks, not including the end itself, and on forever into the future. Therefore, it doesn't pinpoint a specific date; it merely shows that it could be ANY TIME after the end of the 62 weeks!

Also, one needs to understand that the grammar, both in English and in Hebrew, forbids the "prince that shall come" to be the subject of the verbs in verse 27! One must go back farther to find the antecedent of the pronouns (the subject of the verbs) in verse 27, to "Messiah" at the beginning of verse 26!

Therefore, when one reads verse 27, one must insert "Messiah" for the "he's" that one finds there:

Daniel 9:27 (KJV)

27 "And he (the Messiah) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he (the Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he (the Messiah) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

All three of these highlighted portions can be shown to be fulfilled in the NT.

The last half of the seventieth week IS found in Revelation chapters 11-13, but the first half is NOT specified in chapters 8 to 11, because that's NOT the first half of the seventieth week! It's still within the Great Tribulation that has occurred for nearly 2,000 years now!

Ah! Well ... who can fight against THAT?! But, you'd better be DARN sure that was actually Yeeshuwa` doing the talking!

Paul warned ...

2 Corinthians 11:12-15 (KJV)

12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

I'll stick to the Word of God; I KNOW that comes from God; I don't know if you really heard from Yeeshuwa`.

Roy, I think you missed my point. John recorded the last half of the week twice, and John wrote it five more times. That is seven total we have of the last half of the week. Daniel wrote quite plainly of the entire 70th week separated from the 69. 

I am saying that if what you wrote is the intention of the Author, I would expect to find the first 3 1/2 years written somewhere very clearly.

²⁵ Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, So far we cannot tell if this is into the 70th week or if there is a gap and His death is in the gap.

the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city: Titus' army destroyed the city. This comes AFTER  the 69 weeks and BEFORE the 70th. It is obvious that 70 AD did not happen in 32 AD. 

Then, following Daniels order of events, he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week...now we have to ask who or what is the antecedent of "he." If we back up word for word, the first thing we come to is  "the prince." It is the very same prince that destroyed the city. Some will argue that an antecedent cannot be a part of a prepositional phrase. Of course it can!

Just as Daniel jumped generation after generation with "the king of the North" in chapter 11, I don't think it is a stretch to jump from "the prince" as the leader of Rome then, to jump to "a prince" that will be the leader of the Antichrist Beast's kingdom in the future. 

Quote

The last half of the seventieth week IS found in Revelation chapters 11-13, but the first half is NOT specified in chapters 8 to 11, because that's NOT the first half of the seventieth week! It's still within the Great Tribulation that has occurred for nearly 2,000 years now!

I have heard the voice of our Lord many times in my life. I am quite sure WHO spoke to me. Therefore I believe we are just going to disagree on these verses.

Jesus told those who live in Judea to flee the moment they see the abomination. From Daniel we can determine that it will be the abomination that will divide the week. Therefore, the fleeing, 12:6 is going to be only seconds after the abomination. That is further proof that the WEEK will go from the 7th seal to the 7th vial.  I might add, it is quite like our Lord to mark the 70th week with sevens.

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The late Chuck Missler used a quote;

"The New Testament is in the Old Testament concealed. The Old Testament is in the New Testament revealed"

And yes, spot on. The Hebrew uses three words for the creation and restoration of the earth. It uses these words again in the making/creating/forming of man.

I find the distinction crucial because an elaborate process for each part is revealed in the New Testament.
-  Rebirth only for the spirit of man (Jn.3:6)
-  Transformation for the soul (Rom.12:2, 2nd Cor.3:18 1st Pet.1:4-9)
-  Resurrection for the body (1st Cor.15:35-38)

If we mix them, or merge them, we have problems. For instance 1st John 1:8–10 says;

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

But it says in 3:9

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

If verse 9 is not taken in the light of that which is born (ONLY the spirit), a contradiction arises.

Great job here, AdHoc!

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

1 Corinthians 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:


read ANYTHING future in that verse?  

"if there be..." Paul was talking about the same Resurrection 

 

Let's get it in context:

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Insert 1 Thes. 4 rapture verses here: the Lord comes, the dead in Christ are raised, then those alive are caught up and changed...

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep [as in death] , but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Paul's argument is simple, since Christ DID rise from the dead as firstfruits, His church will rise as the main harvest.

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

did you READ those words?  NOT the body but A GRAIN.  

Do you understand how SEEDS work?  GOD GIVES A BODY TO THE SEED,

not A NEW BODY TO THE OLD BODY.  

Read it over and over until you get it.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Notice that it is the DEAD (bodies) that are raised. HOW are they raised? Verse 53 tells us, they are changed from corruptible (the normal flesh body) to incorruptible (the New resurrection body.)

There is nothing confusing about this: untold millions of born again people have passed, meaning, they changed addresses: they left their earthly home and were transported to their heavenly home. But their flesh body was BURIED (in a grave.) On resurrection day, when Jesus comes to the air, those graves will be OPENED (Just as the graves were opened when Jesus rose: Matthew 27).

Why on earth would God bother to open graves unless He was going to raise a body FROM that grave? That is exactly what God is going to do.  AT some level, whether at atomic level, quark level, or even preon level—but at some level, God is going to pull together the particles (dust) that once made up that body, and will form THAT SAME BODY again. That is why Job said He would see the Redeemer IN HIS FLESH. Even though it will be changed into  resurrection flesh, it will be HIS BODY. Our resurrection body will also be OUR body, but changed. 

That is why the graves must be opened: BODIES are coming out of the graves. One the way up, they will be changed into resurrection bodies. 

 

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Correct but BEING IN SIN, they didn't RAISE UP in their spiritual bodies like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob did.  No, they went into the GRAVE BOTH natural  body and SPIRITUAL BODY and it wasn't until they were WASHED clean were they raised up in their spiritual body.  

This is nothing but MYTH. ALL have sinned. That means Abraham sinned. That means Isaac sinned. That means Jacob sinned. If they could have "raised up" as you wrote (do you mean to heaven?) then Jesus would not have had to die. The fact is, they all died just as every man dies. But they were declared righteous by their faith. 

Their spirits went down to hades at that time because that is where ALL spirits went. But after Jesus paid the price for sin, they (all the OT saints) could be freed from hades, and Jesus lead captivity (they were all held in captivity deep inside the earth) captive and took them all to heaven. IN flesh bodies? NO! Their flesh bodies was BURIED on the surface of the earth. They went to heaven as SPIRITS or ghosts if you please. 

They must await the day of Resurrection for them just as the NT saints must wait for THEIR day of resurrection: the pretrib rapture. Jesus told us He would raise them up "on the last day" which will be at the 7th vial.

Get this straight! All born again people are "washed clean" in Jesus' blood WHEN they are born again. Always remember, the REAL PERSON is the spirit being that gives life to the flesh and blood body.

If you wish, perhaps our human spirits have a SPIRIT body_some kind of form that is recognizable. But it is still all SPIRIT. All people (other that Jesus and those who were raised with Him) who have died are STILL WAITING For their resurrection body so they will once again be complete, spirit, soul and BODY.

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

AND THE GRAVES WERE OPENED.  

So all those who HEARD THE GOOD NEWS were washed clean.  What happens when there is no MORE SIN?  Death, or the place of DEATH can't hold you so IN THE HEAVENLY SPIRITUAL BODY YOU GO TO BE WITH THE LORD.  

You know what is totally AWESOME about all this?  IT IS EXACTLY what is written when you don't add or subtract or twist any of it.  

YOUR natural body DOES DIE, but your SPIRITUAL BODY DOESN'T and so you are RAISED UP, never 'dying and going into the grave' but resurrecting and FOLLOWING HIM.  

WHY were "the graves opened?" It is because God RAISED UP their old flesh and blood body and then changed it into a flesh and bone body—a resurrection body that will never die.

Perhaps if you would call the human spirit a SPIRIT instead of a body, this would be simpler.

Quote

What happens when there is no MORE SIN?

There will come a time when all sin will be consumed by God. But perhaps you are meaning that once a human being dies, it is then impossible for them to sin.

Did you not read that the born again spirit CANNOT SIN? The moment someone is born again, God sees that person as if they had NEVER sinned. At that time then, there is no more sin for that born again one. God took the laws that declared sin and nailed it to His cross (a manner of speech.) A born again person then—the real person, the born again spirit—will die WITHOUT SIN and will be escorted to heaven to be as Paul wrote, absent from the body and present with the Lord.

Quote

Death, or the place of DEATH can't hold you so IN THE HEAVENLY SPIRITUAL BODY YOU GO TO BE WITH THE LORD.  

How about in their spirit form they go to heaven. There is no scripture that I know that tells us when our spirit leaves our flesh body that we get a "spiritual body." I think that is MYTH. We will get a spiritual body—our old flesh body CHANGED—on resurrection day, but no sooner. You get mixed up calling human spirits as bodies. They are SPIRITS. 

Quote

YOUR natural body DOES DIE, but your SPIRITUAL BODY DOESN'T and so you are RAISED UP, never 'dying and going into the grave' but resurrecting and FOLLOWING HIM.  

Get this straight, once and for all: "Resurrection" ALWAYS and FOREVER means a PHYSICAL body being raised. Do you just IGNORE WEBSTER? Dictionaries tell us the true MEANING Of words. Look how Paul wrote it:

2 Corinthians 5:8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Paul does NOT call this a "resurrection." Resurrection has the meaning of flesh and blood BODIES being raised, not spirits being escorted to heaven.

Resurrect: to raise from the dead; bring to life again. to rise from the dead.

Resurrection: the act of rising from the dead,
the rising of Christ after His death and burial. 
The rising of the dead on Judgment Day. 
The state of those risen from the dead.

Spirits NEVER DIE, so this cannot be used of spirits. It is talking about flesh and blood BODIES that quit working and there is separation of the spirit from the body - what we call death.

Please, learn the REAL MEANING of resurrection.

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

With your way BOTH THE NATURAL AND SPIRITUAL BODY GO INTO THE GRAVE.  (THAT IS CALLED DEATH OF BOTH BODIES)

With your way EVERY SEED DOESN'T get a body, AT LEAST NOT TILL LATER  (THATS CALLED ADDING TO WHAT IS WRITTEN)

With you way WHAT GOD MADE A LIVING SOUL you SEPARATE so one can ASCEND while the other DESCENDS and then DEAD BODIES RISE to meet bodyless SEEDS descending to once again come together BECOME A LIVING BEING.  OF WHICH nothing IS WRITTEN
(I think that is adding and subtracting and is definitely TWISTING a whole bunch of things and most definitely stands in opposition to the simplicity of Christ) 

What a mess of myth and imagination! Our spirit man or woman is SPIRIT without a body. When someone dies, their spirit leaves their body AS A SPIRIT, not as some kind of "spirit body." Human spirits after physical death are SPIRIT, not body. They are spirits WITHOUT a body. That is the entire purpose of RESURRECTION: God will resurrection our old bodies, CHANGE them into resurrection bodies, and we will then be WHOLE for ever: spirit and soul living INSIDE a resurrection body.

Jesus was our prototype: he GAVE UP HIS SPIRIT, meaning, He allowed Himself as spirit to LEAVE His body nailed to the cross. He then went DOWN into hades, took the keys to death, hell and the grave, and came back to His SAME body, but then inside a tomb. He DID NOT NEED the stone moved - as a spirit being, he could pass right through SOLID ROCK. He went into the tomb, Joined with His body, resurrected it into a resurrection and SPIRIT Body, and passed again right through SOLID ROCK. 

Seed: 

1 Cor. 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

God chose to give man a FLESH AND BLOOD body. He also gave ever kind of seed a body too. Wheat is different than corn. Mustard is different than rye. See how simple this is when you take things in context and understand their meaning?

Then Paul turned to the human body:

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead [human body]. It is sown [died and put in a grave]  in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 

Note carefully, IT IS THE SAME BODY—perhaps someone named Rudy—his body buried, but on resurrection day RAISED (as the same body) then CHANGED into a resurrection body. Dead as corruption, raised as incorrpution.

This is not rocket science.

Quote

With your way BOTH THE NATURAL AND SPIRITUAL BODY GO INTO THE GRAVE.  (THAT IS CALLED DEATH OF BOTH BODIES)

MYTH—total MYTH! The natural body DIES and the HUMAN SPIRIT either goes UP or goes DOWN. God does not choose the direction: He takes what direction they person that died chose by their lifestyle. AGain, SPIRIT is bodyLESS.  So you are WRONG here.

Quote

With your way EVERY SEED DOESN'T get a body, AT LEAST NOT TILL LATER  (THATS CALLED ADDING TO WHAT IS WRITTEN)

The "seed" Paul was talking about is our flesh and blood body that DIES and gets buried in a grave (like sowing a seed.) The seed (the dead flesh and blood body) CHANGES on the way out of the grave on resurrection day, into a NEW body, a resurrection body that is spirit (so it can enter a locked room as Jesus did.

I am not adding. I am understanding. You are MIS-understanding.

Quote

With you way WHAT GOD MADE A LIVING SOUL you SEPARATE so one can ASCEND while the other DESCENDS and then DEAD BODIES RISE to meet bodyless SEEDS descending to once again come together BECOME A LIVING BEING.  OF WHICH nothing IS WRITTEN

Of course nothing like this is written: this is a mass of confusion put into words. 

In Scripture "soul" can mean the entire living person or it can mean the mind, will and emotions of people.  When Moses used it at creation, he meant soul as the complete living being. Paul used it that was as for how many "souls" were on the ship. 

Paul used it differently when He said "your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless..." Also when He wrote of the dividing of the spirit and soul.

Sorry, you MISSED IT AGAIN! Where the SPIRIT of a man goes, there goes the soul also, the two are bound tightly together, so only the word of God can separate. REmember the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man could THINK and REASON and REMEMBER. Those are soulish attributes. His soul went with his spirit.

When a saint goes to heaven, his mind, his will, his memories, his emotions - all this goes with His spirit as God takes the spirit to heaven. 

You MISSED IT YET AGAIN!

Dead bodies fly up out of their grave, are changed, and meet with the human SPIRIT that used to bring life to that body before it died. Paul explains this:

1 Thes. 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep [who have died,] that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them [the SPIRITS with the souls of them] also which sleep [who DIED]  in Jesus will God bring with him. (Jesus will bring the SPIRITS of those who died back to earth WITH HIM so they can meet with their resurrected bodies and be WHOLE once again.)

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

What part of them will "rise?"  of course, the DEAD BODIES that were put in the grave. Spirits will meet again with bodies and people will be WHOLE - spirit soul and body. Again, this is not rocket science.

 

[Retrobyter]

On 10/9/2022 at 12:46 AM, Your closest friendnt said:

Shalom Retrobyter,

ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 17:20 Greek NT: Nestle 1904
Ἐπερωτηθεὶς δὲ ὑπὸ τῶν Φαρισαίων πότε ἔρχεται ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ Θεοῦ, ἀπεκρίθη αὐτοῖς καὶ εἶπεν Οὐκ ἔρχεται ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ Θεοῦ μετὰ παρατηρήσεως,

ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 17:21 Greek NT: Nestle 1904
οὐδὲ ἐροῦσιν Ἰδοὺ ὧδε ἤ Ἐκεῖ· ἰδοὺ γὰρ ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐντὸς ὑμῶν ἐστιν.

****

Luke 17:20-21

New International Version
20. Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed,

21. Good News Translation
No one will say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!'; because the Kingdom of God is within you."

GOD'S WORD® Translation
21. They can't say, 'Here it is!' or 'There it is!' You see, the kingdom of God is within you."

****we understand that Jesus was talking to the Pharisees before his death on the Cross...that no one was born from above, that no one was born from the Spirit just yet...because Jesus was not uplifted as the Serpent was uplifted in the dessert yet...

We also understand that the hope the Jews had was for an earthly Kingdom...

Jesus referring to the hope they had for the earthy Kingdom of David he said to them by a way as to avoid to tell them directly that what they hope about the Kingdom of God it won't happen. They wanted to be able to point to someone and say this is our Kimg and this is the borders of his kingdom...and this is the Splendor of his Palace and this is the Guard...and his Laws and policies and that's how he rules....

Jesus to avoid direct controversy and questions about the Kingdom and how he is going to set it up and how he is going to deal with the Romans, the wanted to know if he is going to raise an army and start a revolution...or God will intervene and the Romans will pull back and go away...

Jesus instead said to the the Kingdom of God is within you...that God is going to rule his people and establish his kingship from within the people..

****it is paramount to highlight that the words in the Greek is

" ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ Θεοῦ" 

Is not "to βασιλείov τοῦ Θεοῦ."

The  conversation is about the Kinship of God and not about the Kingdom of God. 

And that also... but in this particular text it is about the relationship of the King with his subject. how he is going to open their eyes so they can see a different Kigdom than the one they already had...

In other words the Kingdom of God it is a Kingdom without borders...in the whole earth...and where his children are he is also with them who ever they are from all the Nations of the world...in any place they are...

Under any earthly government they are...they can have his kinship from within their heart. 

Shalom, Your closest friendnt.

If you wanna trade versions, I'm good with that. Here are a couple you should consider:

Now, I don't know why (heh heh), but you didn't finish the NIV:

Luke 17:20-21 (NIV)

20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, 

“The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

And, I can imagine Yeeshuwa` holding out His arms ready to embrace them!

Luke 17:20-21 (ESV)

20 Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, 

“The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, 21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you!”

Luke 17:20-21 (Berean Standard Bible)

20 When asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, 

“The kingdom of God will not come with observable signs. 21 Nor will people say, ‘Look, here it is,’ or ‘There it is.’ For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

Luke 17:20-21 (Amplified Bible)

20 Now having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He replied,

“The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed or with a visible display; 21 nor will people say, ‘Look! Here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For the kingdom of God is among you [because of My presence].”

Yeeshuwa` didn't call Himself "king" unless He was delivering a prophecy about the Future! At best, He used the Hebrew (or Aramaic) word "Maashiyach" transliterated into English as "Messiah," because the "Messiah of God" was "GOD'S Choice for Israel's King!" He was the "King-Apparent!" This same word was transliterated into the Greek as "Messias" and translated into the Greek as "Christos," from which we get our word "Christ."

Two things you should consider:

FIRST, 

like His ancestor David, He would be anointed THREE TIMES! David was anointed the first time by God through Sh'mu'eel (Samuel) in 1 Samuel 16:

1 Samuel 16:13 (KJV)

Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.

Then later, He was anointed King over Judah in 2 Samuel 2:

2 Samuel 2:4 (KJV)

4 And the men of Judah came, and there they anointed David king over the house of Judah. And they told David, saying,

"That the men of Jabeshgilead were they that buried Saul."

Then even later, He was anointed King over all Israel in 2 Samuel 5:

2 Samuel 5:3 (KJV)

3 So all the elders of Israel came to the king to Hebron; and king David made a league with them in Hebron before the LORD: and they anointed David king over Israel.

Yeeshuwa` was anointed the first time at His baptism:

Matthew 3:13-17 (KJV)

13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying,

"I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?"

15 And Jesus answering said unto him,

"Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness."

Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying,

"This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

Mark 1:9-11 (KJV)

9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. 10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: 11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying,

"Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

Luke 3:21-22 (KJV)

21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, 22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said,

"Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased."

John 1:29-34 (KJV)

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith,

"Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world! 30 This is he of whom I said, 'After me cometh a man which is preferred before me': for he was before me. 31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water."

32 And John bare record, saying,

"I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me,

"'Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.'

34 "And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God."

BUT, the leadership of Yhudah ("Judah") FAILED to anoint Him as King as they should have! Because of their own greed and avarice and need to be revered in public as the leaders of Judah and Israel, they would not recognize Him as GOD'S CHOICE for their King! For this insult, God made them DESOLATE through His Son!

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you DESOLATE. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say,

'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord'!"

And, this is a partial fulfillment of Daniel 9:27!

SECOND,

There were MANY "messiahs" in history! Sha`uwl (Saul) was anointed of God as Israel's King, David, and Shlomoh (Solomon) was also anointed by the priest to be Israel's King. Indeed, one can read through the books of 1 Kings, 2 Kings, and 2 Chronicles to see that each of the kings were anointed by Israel or Judah to be kings!

Furthermore, priests also were anointed to their service for God!

EACH ONE of these men, therefore, would be a "maashiyach," an "anointed one" for God's service! 

Some prophets were also anointed, as well as kings of other countries!

So, each one of these men could also be called in Greek a "christos" or a "christ!" That doesn't mean that they are "false christs," as one of our members concluded, it just means that they were TRUE anointed men, each one chosen by God to serve Him in some capacity!

The thing about Yeeshuwa` that made HIM different was that He was the Son of God and that He was the ULTIMATE King for Israel! There would be no other after Him, for HIS reign will be eternal!

Thus, we don't NEED to see "basileus" in the Scriptures to know that He was the "maashiyach" - the "christos" - the King-APPARENT!

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

"if there be..." Paul was talking about the same Resurrection 

 

Let's get it in context:

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Insert 1 Thes. 4 rapture verses here: the Lord comes, the dead in Christ are raised, then those alive are caught up and changed...

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep [as in death] , but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Paul's argument is simple, since Christ DID rise from the dead as firstfruits, His church will rise as the main harvest.

That explanation doesn't fit what is written.  

THE DEAD will be raised.  Since those who while they live NEVER DIE what happens with the DEAD being raised has NOTHING to do with them.  

THE DEAD aren't judged for 1000 years so the DEAD certainly don't rule and reign during any of that time. 

You are mixing up those who have received eternal life with those who have died and gone to hell.  Those who NEVER DIE followed Christ to heaven and are returning with Him so WHY would they be amongst the dead?  Because YOU SAY they are coming BACK FOR A BODY?  

EVEN THOUGH IT IS WRITTEN

It is sown a natural body it is raised a spiritual body? 


WELL YOUR SAY SO JUST DOESN'T DO IT FOR ME.  WHAT IS WRITTEN DOES.  

I UNDERSTAND THE DEAD will be raised out from the dead but YOU HAVE THE LIVING being raised out from the dead

 LIKE WHAT IS WRITTEN  DOESN'T HOLD ANY MEANING. 



1Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,

DO YOU BELIEVE CHRIST DIED AND ROSE?  CAUSE IF YOU DO THEN YOU BEST BELIEVE 

even so them also which sleep in Jesus


DIED AND ROSE BECAUSE THEY ARE RETURNING, NOT FOR A CARCASS OUT FROM THE CORRUPTION AS THEY ALREADY WERE RAISED WITH A SPIRITUAL BODY.  

HOW CAN WE BE 1000% POSITIVE OF THIS FACT?  

IT IS WRITTEN.  WITH WHAT BODY ARE THE DEAD RAISED UP?  THE SPIRITUAL ONE

You can try and spin it all the live long day but those are GODS WORDS plain and simple.  

The rest is all just the wisdom of man and they are trying to TEAR DOWN the spirit of the truth of what is written.  

And for what?  SO THE LIVING can be resurrected out from the dead or so a CARCASS can be raised up from the dust to become glorified? 

No wonder our righteousness is as filthy rags.   


Go read it in the GREEK and then let's talk because there is no mistaking it there.  
 

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

AT THE 7th TRUMP THE dead, NOT THE LIVING ARE RAISED.  

THE LIVING have been following CHRIST to where He is ever since He led the captivity captive, fulfilled 1st part of Isaiah 61:1 and 1/2 2, ever since He defeated the power of death, ever since the prisoners were set free, ever since the graves were opened.  He has been coming and receiving them EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER ever since becoming the FIRST FRUIITS of them that slept. 

SERIOUSLY do you see how all that fits just like a hand and glove?  


HOW is it you don't see the DIFFERENCE between the UNSAVED DEAD AND THE RECEIVED THE GIFT OF SALVATION LIVING I don't know?  Until you can distinguish between those two, I can't do anything but put forth what is written.  

LET THE DEAD BURY THE DEAD.  AND those dead will RISE when Christ RETURNS.  The living FOLLOW HIM and return with Him and that is when THE DEAD are resurrected.  

The NEVER DIE follow Christ to where He is.  THEY RESURRECT and with what body agadin?  The spiritual body.

SO no coming back for a BODY OUT FROM THE CORRUPTION.  

Bodies that come out from the corruption are the bodies and spirits of the UNSAVED  aka the souls OF the unsaved rising up to face the GWTJ in 1000 years because the DIED not having repented, not having accepted Christ, not having come to belief, NOT having been saved, not having been made new CREATURES, not having FOLLOWED Him NOT having returned with HIM.  THE 'spiritually dead' who rise up ARE THOSE 

we will be priests and rule and reign OVER with Christ.  Because if the DEAD don't rise there is no one to be priest for now is there?