Question for prewrathers and/or posttribbers

[DeighAnn]

1 minute ago, iamlamad said:

Maybe you are talking oranges while I am talking apples. 

Let's use Luke for an example. His body died and he went to heaven. In what form? ONLY HIS SPIRIT AND SOUL went to heaven. That was nearly 2000 years ago. He has been in heaven EVER SINCE.

One day soon Jesus will come for resurrection of the dead in Christ, and LUKE will be resurrected. Then, according to John 14, Luke will go to heaven with all the bride of Christ, and yes, He will go with His new, resurrection body. This will happen at the rapture event Paul wrote of.

Therefore, please SPECIFY which trip to heaven you are talking about.

It doesn't MATTER what kind of fruit.

I am SAYING we NEVER RETURN TO THE EARTH FOR A BODY out of the corruption.  We return to the earth IN A BODY.  


I am saying the resurrection IS OF THE DEAD.  Not the LIVING.  And until you and the dictionaries and all the saints and whoever else can SHOW ME HOW/why/when THE LIVING ARE placed IN WITH THE DEAD so that they can resurrect OUT FROM THE DEAD, it doesn't matter.  WHY?  because

THAT ISN'T WHAT IS WRITTEN. 

THE ENTIRE WORLD CAN DISAGREE WITH ME, I DON'T CARE. 


YOUR example has Luke being resurrected TWICE.   Your example IS REDEFINING what GOD SAYS IS A LIVING SOUL.  BODY AND BREATH.
Your example has a heavenly body being MADE OF THE DUST OF THE EARTH.  That is just another earthy body, NOT HEAVENLY AT ALL.  Your example doesn't have the body going back to dust of the earth but being resurrected to be "THE dust of a man" ONCE again.  

NONE OF THAT IS WRITTEN.  

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

  

I don't care if a billion or more MEN WERE TAUGHT we are sown a natural body we ARE RAISED A SPIRIT

IS IT IS RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY.  NOT A SPIRIT.  The rest is just the wisdom of man.


Everything in heaven takes place while in a BODY

NOT in 

'a spirit NEEDING TO GO BACK TO THE CORRUPTION TO GET ONE'

 

Quote

IS IT IS RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY. 

What is Paul talking about here? A saint dying, or is he talking resurrection day? He is talking about Resurrection day. OF COURSE our new resurrection body (Our old physical body "changed" will be a SPIRIT BODY. I agree 1000%. 

But on the other hand, when a saint dies, His spirit and soul LEAVE the dead body and go to be with the Lord, BODY-LESS. Their body went into the grave. Therefore, when you write "Everything in heaven takes place while in a BODY" you are talking MYTH.

There are billions of saints in heaven right now in SPIRIT FORM. WHY? Because their FLESH AND BLOOD body was buried, and it is not yet resurrection day for them. God does NOT have a resurrection every time a saint dies. That theory is MYTH too.

Quote

a spirit NEEDING TO GO BACK TO THE CORRUPTION TO GET ONE'

This too is a MYTH. The spirits are NOT coming back for their old corruptable body. Did you MISS what Paul wrote? "we shall all be changed..." He is talking in context about those who are alive when Christ comes, but it holds true for the dead in Christ too. As God puts together the DUST that once formed their bodies, He will CHANGE it into a resurrection body BEFORE the saint arrives to claim his body.

Again, what did Paul write?
"It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:
it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body"

What is Paul telling us? By the time that body comes up out of its grave, it is already a resurrection body, NO LONGER corrupt. That is what Paul meant by CHANGED: God will change the corruptible into incorruption. 

What you are missing is, God will BEGIN this process from the corrupt body.

Edited October 11, 2022 by iamlamad

[DeighAnn]

15 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Further, it seems you have jumped from Christ coming to resurrect the dead in Christ to Christ coming to Armageddon. You are VERY hard to follow.

again, HERE is the problem YOU ARE MAKING THE NEVER DIES 


DEAD.

You don't have the dead being resurrected out from the dead you have the LIVING BEING RESURRECTED OUT FROM THE DEAD.  

Is that easy to understand?   I am having the NEVER DIE follow Christ to heaven in their spiritual bodies and returning"


THEN

when they return I am having THE DEAD resurrect.  


I am not 'combining' the living with the dead or the dead with the living.  You are.  

You are having those who NEVER DIE being resurrected out from the dead at the same time the dead are being resurrected. 

NOW I know how the DEAD got to be amongst the dead,  as at the death of their natural body,  they went into the grave,  to await the return of Christ.  

I ALSO know how the LIVING got to remain amongst the LIVING at the death of their natural body,  they went to heaven, in their spiritual bodies and are returning with Christ

and THEY WILL SEE THE DEAD RESURRECTING OUT FROM THE DEAD, BUT NOT BE A PART OF THE DEAD RESURRECTING OUT FROM THE DEAD.  





 

[DeighAnn]

9 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

But on the other hand, when a saint dies, His spirit and soul LEAVE the dead body and go to be with the Lord, BODY-LESS.

TO EVERY SEED A BODY.  Why do you feel it is OK TO remove the body?

THAT ISN'T WRITTEN.  

It is sown a natural BODY, it is raised a SPIRITUAL BODY.  

You said it yourself GOES TO BE WITH THE LORD.  AKA RESURRECTED. 

AND WITH WHAT BODY DO THEY COME?  A SPIRITUAL ONE

DO YOU KNOW what isn't written?

It is sown an natural body it is raised A SPIRIT? and that spirit goes to heaven and then that spirit returns and then the corruption is raised up and the spirit is re aquainted with the corruption and then the spirit and corruption are HEAVENLY.  

THAT IS WHAT ISN'T WRITTEN, or hinted at or suggested in ANYTHING written in the words of GOD.  

[DeighAnn]

31 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Now it SEEMS that you have quit talking about SAINTs and are not talking about HEATHENS. Further, it seems you have jumped from Christ coming to resurrect the dead in Christ to Christ coming to Armageddon. You are VERY hard to follow.

Obvioiusing, you are here talking about those who die as sinners. They will remain dead for a thousand years AFTER Christ comes for Armageddon. Surely you knew this. It is written plain as day in Revelation 20. My question is, why did you jump to talking about sinners. Let's stay on the subject of SAINTS.

I agree, sinners will NEVER get to heaven. However, after the 1000 years when they are resurrection, God is going to give THEM a resurrection body suitable for the lake of fire. And THEIR SPIRITS will join once again with THEIR resurrection bodies.

To be clear

1.  God RAISED UP ABRAHAM plus, WAY BEFORE Christ was 'the first begotten of the dead' BECAUSE Abraham NEVER went to be amongst the dead.  He came to faith and passed through death like we who believe in Christ do today.  Examples of what the law was MEANT to do.  Showing the law did work perfectly if man followed it to the LOVE of God.

2.  Those under the law, dying in sin and that being the penalty, went to be amongst the dead,

3.  Christ DID go to be amongst the dead and HE defeated the power of death OVER THOSE who are made NEW CREATURES.  All those who were sleeping in death at that time were set free and they all left from out of the dead and went to heaven in SPIRITUAL BODIES.  

4.  Everyone who comes to believe in Jesus before the die, follow Christ to heaven and it is done in a spiritual body.

5.  When Christ returns it is WITH those who followed Him and they ALREADY HAVE heavenly BODIES and will not be returning for 'a body' that comes from the earth.  

5a.  Those who DID NOT follow Him to heaven when their natural bodies died did not because they were spiritually dead.  THEY  have been waiting in the grave and will be resurrected OUT FROM THE DEAD when Christ returns.  

5b.  NOT all the dead resurrect.  SOME of the 'dead' MADE A CHOICE ALREADY and they will be staying in death until they will be raised out of the sea, death and hell AFTER the dead stand at the GWTJ 1000 years after Christ returns. 


THAT is what I believe,  just so you won't find me confusing or think I am being wishy washy and going in a bunch of different directions as the conversation changes direction.  If you go back over every thing I have written you will find they all fall under this and it never varies.  

[DeighAnn]

37 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

"Everything in heaven takes place while in a BODY" you are talking MYTH.

I am going to show you A FELLOW SEVANT IN HEAVEN in body SO AS TO PUT THE 'MYTH' assault to rest.  

 

Revelation 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.


 

Revelation 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

Revelation 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Now that was back in 95AD or so. 

 

[DeighAnn]

59 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Now it SEEMS that you have quit talking about SAINTs and are not talking about HEATHENS. Further, it seems you have jumped from Christ coming to resurrect the dead in Christ to Christ coming to Armageddon. You are VERY hard to follow.

Obvioiusing, you are here talking about those who die as sinners. They will remain dead for a thousand years AFTER Christ comes for Armageddon. Surely you knew this. It is written plain as day in Revelation 20. My question is, why did you jump to talking about sinners. Let's stay on the subject of SAINTS.

I agree, sinners will NEVER get to heaven. However, after the 1000 years when they are resurrection, God is going to give THEM a resurrection body suitable for the lake of fire. And THEIR SPIRITS will join once again with THEIR resurrection bodies.

Why would we ISOLATE?  Everyone is going to die.  Let's BUILD UPON THE FOUNDATION LIKE WE ARE SUPPOSED TO DO.  

Let's start showing THE WHOLE STORY so that EVERYONE who is searching for TRUTH can find it.  We have had 2000 years and we seem to be no further than they were.  WE are a billion strong and NO ONE seems to want to BUILD because everyone is dissecting what will never lead us to truth.  THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH is of what the words are telling us, not the definitions of the words to keep us separated.  

Saints go from here in this body to there in that body and return for the 1000 years to be priests to the dead that resurrect.  THAT is the WHOLE story.  That is the simplicity of CHRIST.  

The heathen go from here in this body to the grave in that body and await the return of CHRIST to be raised up 'in that body' so they MIGHT be able to have their names written in the book of life in 1000 years.  They either make it or they don't.  THAT ALSO is the simplicity of CHRIST.  



 

[DeighAnn]

52 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

God does NOT have a resurrection every time a saint dies. That theory is MYTH too

Let's get rid of the MYTH assault too. 


John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

John 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

John 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


NOT COMING with the armies.  Not every eye seeing.  Not coming in clouds.  Not coming before the 'trib' sets in.  

BUT THAT IS THE INFO GIVEN IN REGARDS TO 
 

John 13:36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.

John 13:37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.

AGAIN, that is not the return of Jesus and that is not a 'PRE TRIB RAPT' though they LOVE TO SAY it and try and make it theirs.  
 

[missmuffet]

One problem with pre-wrath is that they believe the elect in Matthew 24:22,31 are church age saints. These saints could be individuals saved during the 7 year tribulation.

Another flaw is the it teaches that the first seal judgments are not the wrath of God. Scripture shows us that it is the Lamb of God who opens the seals Revelation 5:5

[DeighAnn]

58 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

What is Paul telling us? By the time that body comes up out of its grave, it is already a resurrection body, NO LONGER corrupt. That is what Paul meant by CHANGED: God will change the corruptible into incorruption. 

What you are missing is, God will BEGIN this process from the corrupt body.

THAT is what happens when you isolate instead OF FOLLOWING GODS COMMAND of PRECEPT ON PRECEPT
 

Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Genesis 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Genesis 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.



 

Genesis 4:2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

Genesis 4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.

Genesis 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

Genesis 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.



QUIT AVOIDING -

1  Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;


neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.