Interesting passage gives insights into Predestination and Foreknowledge

[Selah7]

I agree, George.  

Puts me in mind of Jacob and Esau.  Am I right in thinking that in God’s foreknowledge, He predestined Jacob but not Esau?  

S.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Selah7

[Dennis1209]

4 hours ago, George said:

Shalom everyone,

I thought I'd share a piece of Scripture the Lord showed me recently that really helped me understand predestination and foreknowledge ... or at least give me a better understanding.

1Sa 23:1  Now they told David, “Behold, the Philistines are fighting against Keilah and are robbing the threshing floors.” 

1Sa 23:2  Therefore David inquired of the LORD, “Shall I go and attack these Philistines?” And the LORD said to David, “Go and attack the Philistines and save Keilah.” 

1Sa 23:3  But David's men said to him, “Behold, we are afraid here in Judah; how much more then if we go to Keilah against the armies of the Philistines?” 

1Sa 23:4  Then David inquired of the LORD again. And the LORD answered him, “Arise, go down to Keilah, for I will give the Philistines into your hand.” 

1Sa 23:5  And David and his men went to Keilah and fought with the Philistines and brought away their livestock and struck them with a great blow. So David saved the inhabitants of Keilah. 

So David goes after getting confirmation from the Lord to destroy the Palestinians in Keilah.  Let's continue the story ...

1Sa 23:6  When Abiathar the son of Ahimelech had fled to David to Keilah, he had come down with an ephod in his hand. 

1Sa 23:7  Now it was told Saul that David had come to Keilah. And Saul said, “God has given him into my hand, for he has shut himself in by entering a town that has gates and bars.” 

1Sa 23:8  And Saul summoned all the people to war, to go down to Keilah, to besiege David and his men. 

1Sa 23:9  David knew that Saul was plotting harm against him. And he said to Abiathar the priest, “Bring the ephod here.” 

1Sa 23:10  Then David said, “O LORD, the God of Israel, your servant has surely heard that Saul seeks to come to Keilah, to destroy the city on my account. 

1Sa 23:11  Will the men of Keilah surrender me into his hand? Will Saul come down, as your servant has heard? O LORD, the God of Israel, please tell your servant.” And the LORD said, “He will come down.” 

1Sa 23:12  Then David said, “Will the men of Keilah surrender me and my men into the hand of Saul?” And the LORD said, “They will surrender you.” 

1Sa 23:13  Then David and his men, who were about six hundred, arose and departed from Keilah, and they went wherever they could go. When Saul was told that David had escaped from Keilah, he gave up the expedition. 

Now think about it ... this passage clearly shows that divine foreknowledge that God had was used by David ... and also shows that foreknowledge did not necessitate predestination.

God foreknew what Saul and the leaders of Keilah would do, however this did NOT happen!  Basically, God saw the possibility of what would take place, but this foreknowledge did not predestinate the outcome.

Basically this passage revealed to me ... that predestination and foreknowledge are indeed different.

I thought I'd throw that out there ... as a talking point!  

What do you all think?

I think you are absolutely correct. I've cited the very same thing on here several times. If anyone is interested, I have cited a long note:

 

How do God’s foreknowledge, omniscience, predestination, and our “free will” work? This explanation by Dr. Michael S. Heiser includes the Garden of Eden and the fall of man.

In this account, David appeals to the omniscient God to tell him about the future. In the first instance (23:1–5), David asks God whether he should go to the city of Keilah and whether he’ll successfully defeat the Philistines there. God answers in the affirmative in both cases. David goes to Keilah and indeed defeats the Philistines.

In the second section (23:6–13), David asks the Lord two questions: (1) will his nemesis Saul come to Keilah and threaten the city on account of David’s presence? And (2) will the people of Keilah turn him over to Saul to avoid Saul’s wrath? Again, God answers both questions affirmatively: “He will come down,” and “They will deliver you.”

Neither of these events that God foresaw ever actually happened. Once David hears God’s answers, he and his men leave the city. When Saul discovers this fact (v. 13), he abandons his trip to Keilah. Saul never made it to the city. The men of Keilah never turned David over to Saul.

Why is this significant? This passage clearly establishes that divine foreknowledge does not necessitate divine predestination. God foreknew what Saul would do and what the people of Keilah would do given a set of circumstances. In other words, God foreknew a possibility—but this foreknowledge did not mandate that the possibility was actually predestined to happen. The events never happened, so by definition they could not have been predestined. And yet the omniscient God did indeed foresee them. Predestination and foreknowledge are separable.

The theological point can be put this way:

That which never happens can be foreknown by God, but it is not predestined, since it never happened.

But what about things that do happen? They can obviously be foreknown, but were they predestined?

Since we have seen above that foreknowledge in itself does not necessitate predestination, all that foreknowledge truly guarantees is that something is foreknown. If God foreknows some event that happens, then he may have predestined that event. But the fact that he foreknew an event does not require its predestination if it happens. The only guarantee is that God foreknew it correctly, whether it turns out to be an actual event or a merely possible event.

The theological point can be put this way:

Since foreknowledge doesn’t require predestination, foreknown events that happen may or may not have been predestined.

This set of ideas goes against the grain of several modern theological systems. Some of those systems presume that foreknowledge requires predestination, and so everything must be predestined—all the way from the fall to the holocaust, to what you’ll choose off a dinner menu. Others dilute foreknowledge by proposing that God doesn’t foreknow all possibilities, since all possibilities cannot happen. Or they posit other universes where all the possibilities happen. These ideas are unnecessary in light of 1 Samuel 23 and other passages that echo the same fundamental idea: foreknowledge does not necessitate predestination.

These ideas are unnecessary in light of 1 Samuel 23 and other passages that echo the same fundamental idea: foreknowledge does not necessitate predestination.

Things we discussed earlier in this book allow us to take the discussion further. God may foreknow an event and predestine that event, but such predestination does not necessarily include decisions that lead up to that event. In other words, God may know and predestine the end—that something is ultimately going to happen—without predestining the means to that end.

We saw this precise relationship when we looked at decision making in God’s divine council. The passages in 1 Kings 22:13–23 and Daniel 4 informed us that God can decree something and then leave the means up to the decisions of other free-will agents. The end is sovereignly ordained; the means to that end may or may not be.

  IMPLICATIONS

An ancient Israelite would have embraced this parsing of foreknowledge, predestination, sovereignty, and free will. He would not have been encumbered by a theological tradition. She would have understood that this is the way God himself has decided his rule over human affairs will work. These are Yahweh’s decisions, and we accept them.

This has significant implications for not only the fall, but the presence of evil in our world in general. God is not evil. There is no biblical reason to argue that God predestined the fall, though he foreknew it. There is no biblical reason to assert that God predestined all the evil events throughout human history simply because he foreknew them.

There is also no biblical coherence to the idea that God factored all evil acts into his grand plan for the ages. This is a common, but flawed, softer perspective, adopted to avoid the previous notion that God directly predestines evil events. It unknowingly implies that God’s “perfect” plan needed to incorporate evil acts because—well, because we see them every day, and surely they can’t just happen, since God foreknows everything. Therefore (says this flawed perspective) they must just be part of how God decided best to direct history.

God does not need the rape of a child to happen so that good may come. His foreknowledge didn’t require the holocaust as part of a plan that would give us the kingdom on earth. God does not need evil as a means to accomplish anything.

God foreknew the fall. That foreknowledge did not propel the event. God also foreknew a solution to the fall that he himself would guarantee, a solution that entered his mind long before he laid the foundations of the earth. God was ready. The risk was awful, but he loved the notion of humanity too much to call the whole thing off.

Evil does not flow from a first domino that God himself toppled. Rather, evil is the perversion of God’s good gift of free will. It arises from the choices made by imperfect imagers, not from God’s prompting or predestination. God does not need evil, but he has the power to take the evil that flows from free-will decisions—human or otherwise—and use it to produce good and his glory through the obedience of his loyal imagers, who are his hands and feet on the ground now.

All of this means that what we choose to do is an important part of how things will turn out. What we do matters. God has decreed the ends to which all things will come. As believers, we are prompted by his Spirit to be the good means to those decreed ends.

Free will in the hearts and hands of imperfect beings, whether human or divine, means imagers can opt for their own authority in place of God’s.¹

¹ Heiser, M. S. (2015). The Unseen Realm: Recovering the Supernatural Worldview of the Bible (First Edition, p. 68). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.

 

[OneLight]

4 hours ago, George said:

Basically this passage revealed to me ... that predestination and foreknowledge are indeed different.

I thought I'd throw that out there ... as a talking point!  

What do you all think?

God, being all knowing, knows what will happen in every possible situation, decision and choice anyone can ever make before the opportunity even arises.  This foreknowledge even includes the "what if's" that never happen. 

[George]

4 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

Am I right in thinking that in God’s foreknowledge, He predestined Jacob but not Esau?

I believe it's as God says it in Romans ...

Rom 8:28  And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 

Rom 8:29  For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 

Rom 8:30  And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

While this passage is true ... remember that the CALLED is to everyone ...

1 Ti 2:4  who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 

2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

So while the predestination may be known by God ... how we get there is a matter of free will ... and this does not conflict with His desired will that all come to faith!

[Dennis1209]

22 minutes ago, George said:

The reality that the plan of God was the same before and after Jesus ... Abraham believed God and it was accounted to Him for righteousness ... it was an imputed righteousness!  After Jesus it's trusting God through His Son and it's an imputed righteousness!  One couldn't SEE the plan before in Abraham's day ... but it was the same God imputing His Righteousness.  And now AFTER the CROSS so we can see the full plan of God.  That's the difference.  Without His righteousness imputed to us ... none of us would be righteous before Him!  In Jonah's day ... they were imputed God's righteousness as they repented and turned to God and believed!  It's a GIFT ... 

Romans 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Basically @angels4u there is the difference between POSITIONAL holiness ... and BEHAVIOR holiness.

In Jesus through FAITH ... we have POSITIONALLY been seated in Heavenly places!  And yet we sin and struggle, etc ... we are working out our BEHAVIOR holiness -- in our daily lives trying to imitate Jesus in all that we do!

Yessiareree, in hindsight we see the redemptive work in the Old Testament. I believe these "mysteries" in part revealed in the New Testament, are because God was not going to reveal His hand to Satan and keep him in the dark (pun intended). The following are the princes and powers of the air:

1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

[Marathoner]

1 hour ago, George said:

I believe it's as God says it in Romans ...

Rom 8:28  And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 

Rom 8:29  For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 

Rom 8:30  And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

While this passage is true ... remember that the CALLED is to everyone ...

1 Ti 2:4  who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 

2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

So while the predestination may be known by God ... how we get there is a matter of free will ... and this does not conflict with His desired will that all come to faith!

Brother, I can't find reason to disagree with anything you've shared. You do indeed raise excellent points and even better, you've shared relevant scripture to accompany that. 

I have pondered this very thing for quite some time, and it occurs to me that it's all too easy to find oneself in a theological trap (in a manner of speaking) where we think have the Lord all figured out. 

He is well-pleased to bestow upon man, whom He has made in His image, the capacity to choose. 

He is well-pleased to accomplish His word, which we know never returns to Him void.

We know that He has hardened hearts and moves upon others but in all things, whatever our Lord does, it is always to accomplish His will and purpose.

I think of my own experience with Christ and how He called me, and I can't say that I didn't have a choice. I did. I could have refused to trust His word and remained right where I was all those years ago. I'm thankful beyond words for what the Lord did for my sake!

I was a clueless agnostic. But when the conviction of His Spirit was upon me, how could I have chosen otherwise? When Christ made Himself known to me, how could I not love Him?

I can't fathom how anyone could turn away from our Lord, George. I can say this, that this existence was difficult when I was dead in my trespasses. When the Lord came to me, He showed me everything I had done and called me to Him.

There is nothing too great for our God. I did indeed choose Him in that moment, and life as I knew it was over... and then it began! The life He gives to us is worth everything, and He does as He pleases with me. I wouldn't have it any other way.

I'm glad I ran into this topic. I've been pondering these things for quite some time. 

[angels4u]

1 hour ago, Marathoner said:

Brother, I can't find reason to disagree with anything you've shared. You do indeed raise excellent points and even better, you've shared relevant scripture to accompany that. 

I have pondered this very thing for quite some time, and it occurs to me that it's all too easy to find oneself in a theological trap (in a manner of speaking) where we think have the Lord all figured out. 

He is well-pleased to bestow upon man, whom He has made in His image, the capacity to choose. 

He is well-pleased to accomplish His word, which we know never returns to Him void.

We know that He has hardened hearts and moves upon others but in all things, whatever our Lord does, it is always to accomplish His will and purpose.

I think of my own experience with Christ and how He called me, and I can't say that I didn't have a choice. I did. I could have refused to trust His word and remained right where I was all those years ago. I'm thankful beyond words for what the Lord did for my sake!

I was a clueless agnostic. But when the conviction of His Spirit was upon me, how could I have chosen otherwise? When Christ made Himself known to me, how could I not love Him?

I can't fathom how anyone could turn away from our Lord, George. I can say this, that this existence was difficult when I was dead in my trespasses. When the Lord came to me, He showed me everything I had done and called me to Him.

There is nothing too great for our God. I did indeed choose Him in that moment, and life as I knew it was over... and then it began! The life He gives to us is worth everything, and He does as He pleases with me. I wouldn't have it any other way.

I'm glad I ran into this topic. I've been pondering these things for quite some time. 

Wonderful testimony,I remember looking for something when I started reading the N.T ,the Lord really got a hold of me when I read John 3:16 and I wondered if that was for me also and I started asking questions,not long after that I got saved ,I grew up in church but didn’t really know what Jesus did for me, I never looked back and God started changing and moulding me in who I am now and He’s still not finished with me,somehow I believe that the Holy Spirit started working in my life because my grandmother’s prayers ,she became a born again later believer in life  God is good! 

[JohnR7]

7 hours ago, angels4u said:

Very well said as God knew us from a long time ago and knew if we were going to accept Salvation or not, He gave us the choice,to accept Him or reject His Son....

That how I see it also, foreknowledge and free choice

God writes the book of our life at or before our conception. I have a daughter that never even made it to the womb. Psalm 139:16 "Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be."  He gives us angels to help us understand His plan for us and our life. We choose if we want to follow His plan for us. He declares the end from the beginning. (Isaiah 46:10) He watches over His word to perform (kjv) what He has declared. Jeremiah 1:12 “for I am watching over My word to accomplish it.” 

"This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live". Deuteronomy 30:19 

I know my daughter is in Heaven. She never got to live the life that God ordained for her to live. 

[JohnR7]

4 hours ago, OneLight said:

God, being all knowing, knows what will happen in every possible situation, decision and choice anyone can ever make before the opportunity even arises.  This foreknowledge even includes the "what if's" that never happen. 

Marion Franklin Tinsley (February 3, 1927 – April 3, 1995) never lost a world championship game. In Chess or Checkers there are an infinite number of moves. I can go maybe 15 moves into the future, but God can play out the whole game based on one move. 

[angels4u]

9 hours ago, JohnR7 said:

God writes the book of our life at or before our conception. I have a daughter that never even made it to the womb. Psalm 139:16 "Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be."  He gives us angels to help us understand His plan for us and our life. We choose if we want to follow His plan for us. He declares the end from the beginning. (Isaiah 46:10) He watches over His word to perform (kjv) what He has declared. Jeremiah 1:12 “for I am watching over My word to accomplish it.” 

"This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live". Deuteronomy 30:19 

I know my daughter is in Heaven. She never got to live the life that God ordained for her to live. 

I'm so sorry to hear you lost your daughter..

Someday there will be a very happy reunion and by the way this world is going that day might not be too far away..