Interesting passage gives insights into Predestination and Foreknowledge

[Marathoner]

I agree with @George. 

I also agree with @Alive.

There comes a moment when the Spirit of God draws near, and that is when we occupy that "valley of decision." I found George's OP exceedingly helpful which leaves no doubt regarding how the Lord has clarified this matter so I might properly understand. 

I'm sure I've expressed this before, but it bears repeating: my heart leaps for joy when the Lord speaks to me through the hearts of my brothers and sisters in Christ. It is a precious blessing beyond compare!

Yes, the Lord chose me. Ah, but it pleases God to give us this choice when the hour of salvation arrives according to His will and purpose. After I read our brother's OP and his subsequent contributions in this topic, I reflected upon how the Holy Spirit came to me one evening out of the blue (so it seemed to me!). 

If you draw near and trust My word, I will make the way straight before you. 

I was weeping under His conviction, and I knew what drawing near and trusting His word meant:

My life was over. The girlfriend I shacked up with... the dream job working for a newspaper... even my family of flesh and blood... all of it would be swept away in the whirlwind sent by the Lord. This same whirlwind would conduct me on the journey which God declared that day. If I drew near and trusted His word...

Nothing would be the same ever again. Yes, I could turn away if that was what I desired. So, what did that clueless agnostic do?

I drew near and trusted His word! I abandoned everything and sought Jesus Christ.  

[Anne2]

2 minutes ago, Heaven_Bound said:

YES!!

And if you follow the back to the origin's of those people, they are SIN, un-repented idolatry SIN that goes back to Genesis 6 and the War between Satan/Fallen Angels and God and their direct Disobedience to God to not intermingle with humanity.

 

He did not want them influencing his nation. To weaken it or harm it. We I think can both agree on that.

 

4 minutes ago, Heaven_Bound said:

YES!!

And if you follow the back to the origin's of those people, they are SIN, un-repented idolatry SIN that goes back to Genesis 6 and the War between Satan/Fallen Angels and God and their direct Disobedience to God to not intermingle with humanity.

 

It's not like these people were Innocent!

They were generations after generations continuing the goal set forth by Satan, to DESTROY the Lineage that leads to Christ being born and Dying for our Sins!

 

I praise God He wiped these Demon Seeds out and destroyed them literally.   And He also punished Saul for not finishing off Amalekites.   God protected the Lineage that led to Christ!

No nation is without sinners. He Chose some nations to be fully destroyed, Some to partial destruction, taking only virgins captive, and some all to tributaries.

The point for me is, Pharaoh was ignorant of Joseph. He seen the Hebrew people as a threat to his nation and people. 

We may find these things harsh in our modern societies, but it was pretty much standard practice to eliminate threats by rulers.

[kwikphilly]

Blessings George...Ive not read all these pages so forgive me if someone else said what I am going to say)When I read your OP I immediately thought of Hezekiah

   Of course God Knew exactly what Hezekiah would say when he rcvd the news of his imminent death ,God knew how he would react but He also Knew that He Would Give Hezekiah an extension of 15 years more to live.

When the Prophet told Isaiah the message from the Lord he begged for Mercy,yes-we know that God is Moved by our prayers and this is a good example but is He really Moved when in fact He already Knows the outcome

   Foreknowledge & Predestination are not the same thing YET because Almighty God is not bound by time or space,is Everywhere at all times & Knows EVERYTHING I often wonder what how different are they really when we are speaking about the Creator of the Universe Who Has Given us Free Will to choose Him or not but He knows what we are going to choose(or in His Eternal State perhaps it is what we already chose or are choosing?)

  I realize what I'm trying to explain probably sounds like I got this from a science fiction movie but these things always boggled my mind! Gods Will is ALWAYS Done,is it not? Even if something bad happens God has Allowed that certain thing to occur that His Will be Done as a result,for our Good & to give Him Glory.....yes? So then  was it not Gods will that Hezekiah live those 15 years more...after all we are Assigned a time to be born & a time to die-

Quote

Ecclesiastes 3:1-6 NASB1995

There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven— A time to give birth and a time to die; A time to plant and a time to uproot what is planted. A time to kill and a time to heal; A time to tear down and a time to build up. A time to weep and a time to laugh; A time to mourn and a time to dance. A time to throw stones and a time to gather stones; A time to embrace and a time to shun embracing. A time to search and a time to give up as lost; A time to keep and a time to throw away

Well,let me ask this question " Is foreordained the same as predestination"?    I think foreknowledge is different than predestination but I believe we are fore ordained or predestined to a specific outcome BECAUSE God Has ForeKnowledge-does that make sense or am I very very tired-lol

                               With love-in Christ,Kwik

 

 

 

 

[Anne2]

5 minutes ago, Heaven_Bound said:

This to me tells me most about thinking these other Nations did not know about God!  Because they did! 

Agreed. In Judaism it's called Noachide law. And in Christianity it is called Natural law.

 

7 minutes ago, Heaven_Bound said:

 We read in several examples non Hebrews converting to the God of the Hebrew Peoples.  So People KNEW WHO GOD WAS!

 

They knew natural law/ Noachide law. Just like Moses father in law, whom advised Moses concerning to structure their judicial system. If you read these scriptures, Moses father in law knew a few things about natural law, and the attributes necessary to those operating in those offices. He was very glad for what God had done for them.

He also was offered to remain among them, by Moses. He chose not to.

 

Ex 18:17  And Moses’ father in law said unto him, The thing that thou doest is not good.
18  Thou wilt surely wear away, both thou, and this people that is with thee: for this thing is too heavy for thee; thou art not able to perform it thyself alone. {Thou wilt … : Heb. Fading thou wilt fade }
19  Hearken now unto my voice, I will give thee counsel, and God shall be with thee: Be thou for the people to God-ward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God:
20  And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.
21  Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:
22  And let them judge the people at all seasons: and it shall be, that every great matter they shall bring unto thee, but every small matter they shall judge: so shall it be easier for thyself, and they shall bear the burden with thee.
23  If thou shalt do this thing, and God command thee so, then thou shalt be able to endure, and all this people shall also go to their place in peace.
24  So Moses hearkened to the voice of his father in law, and did all that he had said.
 

[Alive]

Here are a few verses for all to consider and go on to study from---posters and lurkers alike.

Enjoy.

1588. ἐκλεκτός eklektos; from 1586; chosen, elect; choice: — choice(2), choice man(1), chosen(10), chosen one(1), elect(8).

These verses use the same greek word.

 

Matt. 22:14 (NAS20S) “For many are   called, but few are chosen.”

 

Matt. 24:22 (NAS20S) “And if those days had not been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

 

Matt. 24:24 (NAS20S) “For false christs and false prophets will arise and will provide great   signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

 

Matt. 24:31 (NAS20S) “And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET BLAST, and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His   elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 

Mark 13:20 (NAS20S) “And if the Lord had not shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

 

Mark 13:22 (NAS20S) for false christs and false prophets will arise, and will provide signs and wonders, in order to mislead, if possible, the elect.

 

Mark 13:27 (NAS20S) “And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the end of the earth to the end of heaven.

 

Luke 18:7 (NAS20S) now, will God not bring about justice for His elect who cry out to Him day and night, and will He delay long for them?

 

Luke 23:35 (NAS20S) And the people stood by, watching. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, “He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.”

 

Rom. 8:33 (NAS20S) Who will bring charges against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;

 

Rom. 16:13 (NAS20S) Greet Rufus, a choice man in the Lord, also his mother and mine.

 

Col. 3:12 (NAS20S)   So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and   patience;

 

1Tim. 5:21 (NAS20S) I solemnly exhort you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.

 

2Tim. 2:10 (NAS20S) For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.

 

Titus 1:1 (NAS20S)   Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,

 

1Pet. 1:1 (NAS20S)    Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,    To those who reside as strangers, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen

 

1Pet. 2:4 (NAS20S)   And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by people, but is choice and precious in the sight of God,

 

1Pet. 2:6 (NAS20S) For this is contained in Scripture:   “ BEHOLD, I AM LAYING IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNERSTONE,   AND THE ONE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME.”

 

1Pet. 2:9 (NAS20S)   But you are A CHOSEN PEOPLE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR GOD’S OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

 

2John 1 (NAS20S)    The elder to the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not only I, but also all who know the truth,

 

2John 13 (NAS20S)   The children of your chosen sister greet you.

 

Rev. 17:14 (NAS20S) “These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them because He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”

 

4309. προορίζω proorizō; from 4253 and 3724; to predetermine, foreordain: — predestined(6).

Acts 4:28 (NAS20S) to do whatever Your hand and purpose predestined to occur.

 

Rom. 8:29 (NAS20S) For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters; ³⁰ and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

 

1Cor. 2:7 (NAS20S) but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;

 

Eph. 1:5 (NAS20S) He predestined us to adoption as sons and daughters through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

 

Eph. 1:11 (NAS20S) In Him we also have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things in accordance with the plan of His will,

[Marathoner]

5 minutes ago, kwikphilly said:

Blessings George...Ive not read all these pages so forgive me if someone else said what I am going to say)When I read your OP I immediately thought of Hezekiah

   Of course God Knew exactly what Hezekiah would say when he rcvd the news of his imminent death ,God knew how he would react but He also Knew that He Would Give Hezekiah an extension of 15 years more to live.

When the Prophet told Isaiah the message from the Lord he begged for Mercy,yes-we know that God is Moved by our prayers and this is a good example but is He really Moved when in fact He already Knows the outcome

   Foreknowledge & Predestination are not the same thing YET because Almighty God is not bound by time or space,is Everywhere at all times & Knows EVERYTHING I often wonder what how different are they really when we are speaking about the Creator of the Universe Who Has Given us Free Will to choose Him or not but He knows what we are going to choose(or in His Eternal State perhaps it is what we already chose or are choosing?)

  I realize what I'm trying to explain probably sounds like I got this from a science fiction movie but these things always boggled my mind! Gods Will is ALWAYS Done,is it not? Even if something bad happens God has Allowed that certain thing to occur that His Will be Done as a result,for our Good & to give Him Glory.....yes? So then  was it not Gods will that Hezekiah live those 15 years more...after all we are Assigned a time to be born & a time to die-

 

We can't comprehend as we ought to comprehend, not here and now. I understand exactly what you're getting at, sister. Not science fiction, just the reality of our incomprehensible God...

Who is pleased to make Himself comprehensible to us in His only begotten Son. 

I can't say that I was ever "fence sitting;" I only lacked a perspective which the Lord has been building upon step by step over time. Yes, time!

Here upon this earth, where there is a time and season for every matter under heaven, we live in time and times. It can be excruciating to understand spiritual and heavenly matters, which are neither subject to time nor the passage of it, because our life in time is all that we know. Thus, we see darkly and know only in part.

We walk in faith. 

We thought that our time upon this earth under the sun was over, but it wasn't our appointed time. Not only did the Lord know where I would up decades after He called me from this world, but He declared it decades before it came to pass. I simply couldn't grasp this because it was too great for me at that time.

This is not without precedent in the scriptures. The Lord reveals the hidden things of God and it pleases Him that we don't understand at that time (this happened to the apostle Peter regarding Gentiles). With the benefit of hindsight, after the Lord raised me up, I blessed His name that I didn't understand what His Spirit revealed twenty years earlier.

If I had understood at that time, I would have lost my mind to fear and terror!

Ah... but here in time where all of us live and toil, the Lord came to me when I was almost dead and was greatly moved for my sake. Yes...

But twenty years earlier He had declared this! His Spirit spoke... He also spoke through a brother and a sister in Christ (a husband and wife, very dear friends) more than once... and He sent dreams. 

But I couldn't grasp it. 

I understand how this might come across as confusing (or the stuff of sci-fi) but it is what it is. God is not subject to time and space but in this flesh and blood and body, we are. 

[Anne2]

6 minutes ago, Heaven_Bound said:

I Love IT!

Great Points Made!

This is the law that Abraham knew God to judge men by

1. Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah

Ge 18:25  That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

2. The destruction of the nations they would dispossess

Le 18:27  (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;)

3. Which law Israel was also judged by (all  are without excuse)

26  Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
27  (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;)
28  That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.
29  For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.
 

Also law which Judaism recognizes as a division of the ten commands.

1. Sin against God

2. Sin against your fellow man

As Jesus said

Mt 22:37  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38  This is the first and great commandment.
39  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
 

 

 

[Alive]

Paul quotes Psalm 14--making an argument of what man is before regeneration.

Rom. 3:9 (NAS20S)   What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; ¹⁰ as it is written:   “THERE IS NO RIGHTEOUS PERSON, NOT EVEN ONE;

¹¹  THERE IS NO ONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,   THERE IS NO ONE WHO SEEKS OUT GOD;

¹²  THEY HAVE ALL TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME CORRUPT;   THERE IS NO ONE WHO DOES GOOD,   THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

¹³  “THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,   WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”   “THE VENOM OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;

¹⁴  “THEIR MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”;

¹⁵  “THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,

¹⁶  DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,

¹⁷  AND THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN THE WAY OF PEACE.”

¹⁸  “THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”

 

[B-B]

The New Birth

1There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”

3Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born [a]again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

John 3

Edited April 23, 2022 by B-B

[B-B]

1 minute ago, Heaven_Bound said:

But this has nothing to do with God Forcing Himself onto us!

???? 😂 when did I say it did? Why would you make this assumption??