Different peoples, Different covenants, Different deaths, will NEVER fit into an 'either/or' explanation

[DeighAnn]

14 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

Blessings D,Brothers & Sisters

   Nicely done-now this is called "reasoning together"....it is refreshing to see at least 3 people disagreeing yet ever so nicely explaining their own position,why you take that position & how you are interpreting Scripture AND then with all due respect,listening to the other do the same

   This is how the Body of Christ should be speaking to one another,the conclusions do not even have to be(one is right & 1 is wrong) because these are non-Salvational matters.....we are probably all a little bit right & a little bit wrong until we can see clearly when we are in our New Glorified Bodies,which we all agree we will one day Receive because Jesus Promises it shall be so!

                                                                                With love-in Christ,Kwik

Oh, THANK GOD and yea!!!  I think the guys are pretty comfortable with keeping it low key but ME? Not so much.  BUT I am trying to SLOW it way down, pause, walk away, come back, edit and wasn't sure it was making a difference, so I thank you for the comment.  

Lots of new doors opening up everyday and I KNOW that would not be happening without 'iron sharpening iron'.  Adhoc and I have had a few conversations and for being on two different sides of the fence,  they go really well, IMHO anyhow.  

Why do you say these are 'non-Salvational matters'?  I don't know if I understand what that means to everyone else.  Especially since I look at this as being one of the biggest problems today.   Isn't  'I never knew you' a pretty big salvation matter?  

One of the problems of not going to school...always behind the 8 ball when it comes to how everyone divides these things.  Again thank you.  I am very tired and going to sleep now.  Good to hear from you again.  Always a pleasure as you have a very peaceful/peace giving spirit to me.  

God bless you ALWAYS Kwik
 

[kwikphilly]

42 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Oh, THANK GOD and yea!!!  I think the guys are pretty comfortable with keeping it low key but ME? Not so much.  BUT I am trying to SLOW it way down, pause, walk away, come back, edit and wasn't sure it was making a difference, so I thank you for the comment.  

Lots of new doors opening up everyday and I KNOW that would not be happening without 'iron sharpening iron'.  Adhoc and I have had a few conversations and for being on two different sides of the fence,  they go really well, IMHO anyhow.  

Why do you say these are 'non-Salvational matters'?  I don't know if I understand what that means to everyone else.  Especially since I look at this as being one of the biggest problems today.   Isn't  'I never knew you' a pretty big salvation matter?  

One of the problems of not going to school...always behind the 8 ball when it comes to how everyone divides these things.  Again thank you.  I am very tired and going to sleep now.  Good to hear from you again.  Always a pleasure as you have a very peaceful/peace giving spirit to me.  

God bless you ALWAYS Kwik
 

Blessings dear Sister

   I see a big difference in your " style"( for lack of a better word- lol)... Let me also mention that you have always been loving, kind, gracious and very courteous to me.  Sometimes we get whst we give but also we may also give what we get & that can be not such a good thing when its not very nice!

  Anyway, I wanted to comment on the lovely way you are all posting- its leading by example with love in Christ- WELL DONE

D, I wasnt referencing " I never knew you" a non- Salvational issue, perhaps that was discussed but I didnt read all posts. What I was referring to was your subject Title and the most recent conversation of " timings", rapture, raising up etc...

Hope that clarifies my statement.

With love in Christ, Kwik

God Bless you TO Bless & BE Blessed❤

[DeighAnn]

16 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

The body of Jesus. While it saw no corruption, after three days it was changed into a glorified spiritual body, and in that body Jesus appeared to His disciples after His  resurrection.  This will be the same type of body all true believers receive at the last day.

The difference is our bodies are sown into corruption therefore they will rot. Whatever remains of these bodies will be transformed. Could be a freshly dead corpse or dust from as body 10,000 years old. Doesn't matter.

Please tell me what these words and verses SAY 

you sow NOT THE BODY  THAT WILL BE 

you sow but a BARE GRAIN if

it may be of wheat,

or of some of the rest


A.   Does NOT THE BODY mean Not the body?
or
B.   Does NOT THE BODY mean The body that will be?



1131. gumnos ►
Strong's Concordance
gumnos: naked, poorly clothed
Original Word: γυμνός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: gumnos
Phonetic Spelling: (goom-nos')
Definition: naked, poorly clothed
Usage: rarely: stark-naked; generally: wearing only the under-garment; bare, open, manifest; mere.

b. only, mere, bare, equivalent to ψιλός (like Latinvudus): γυμνός κόκκος, mere grain, not the plant itself, 1 Corinthians 15:37 (Clement of Rome, 1 Cor. 24, 5 [ET] σπέρματα πεσόντα εἰς τήν γῆν ξηρά καί γυμνά διαλύεται).


2848. kokkos ►
Strong's Concordance
kokkos: a grain
Original Word: κόκκος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kokkos
Phonetic Spelling: (kok'-kos)
Definition: a grain
Usage: a kernel, grain, seed.

a sperm and an egg = a seed 


3062. loipos ►
Strong's Concordance
loipos: the rest, the remaining
Original Word: λοιπός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: loipos
Phonetic Spelling: (loy-poy')
Definition: the rest, the remaining
Usage: left, left behind, the remainder, the rest, the others.



But God gives it a body 
as He has willed and
to each of the seeds  it's own body 

(NO SEEDS GOING anywhere WITHOUT A BODY)





It is sown a body natural it is raised a body spiritual. 

 If there is a natural body,  there is also a spiritual 
 

1510. eimi ►
Strong's Concordance
eimi: I exist, I am
Original Word: εἰμί
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: eimi
Phonetic Spelling: (i-mee')
Definition: I exist, I am
Usage: I am, exist.
HELPS Word-studies
1510 eimí (the basic Greek verb which expresses being, i.e. "to be") – am, is. 1510 (eimí), and its counterparts, (properly) convey "straight-forward" being (existence, i.e. without explicit limits).

1510 /eimí ("is, am") – in the present tense, indicative mood – can be time-inclusive ("omnitemporal," like the Hebrew imperfect tense). Only the context indicates whether the present tense also has "timeless" implications. For example, 1510 (eimí) is aptly used in Christ's great "I am" (ego eimi  . . . ) that also include His eternality (self-existent life) as our life, bread, light," etc. See Jn 7:34, 8:58, etc.

Example: Jn 14:6: "I am (1510 /eimí) the way, the truth and the life." Here 1510 (eimí) naturally accords with the fact Christ is eternal – maning "I am (was, will be)." The "I am formula (Gk egō eimi)" harks back to God's only name, "Yahweh" (OT/3068, "the lord") – meaning "He who always was, is, and will be." Compare Jn 8:58 with Ex 3:14. See also Rev 4:8 and 2962 /kýrios ("Lord").

When are we born of incorruptible seed?  
 

1Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

1Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

 

[kwikphilly]

Blessings D

 Yes, both your A & B are correct!

 However, the natural body has nothing to do with the incorruptible seed that will be the new glorified body...... A Born Again Believers body of flesh could be burned into disintegrated ash that scatters into the wind and disappears..... When the spirit Sealed for Redemption is raised up it will Receive its New Body....

 Was that your question?

 In Christs Love, Kwik

[DeighAnn]

6 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

Blessings D

 Yes, both your A & B are correct!

 However, the natural body has nothing to do with the incorruptible seed that will be the new glorified body...... A Born Again Believers body of flesh could be burned into disintegrated ash that scatters into the wind and disappears..... When the spirit Sealed for Redemption is raised up it will Receive its New Body....

 Was that your question?

 In Christs Love, Kwik

Morning Kwik, and blessings to you. And yes the correct question, but

I don't understand your answer.  Maybe I am too 'simple', but when GOD SAYS 

'you sow NOT THE BODY THAT WILL BE' 

to me, THAT is what God means.  In my heart and in my soul, it is not up for  debate.  It isn't a complex sentence.  It is a straightforward, simple statement of fact.  Nothing about this 'natural' body has anything to do with the spiritual body.  There are 2 bodies.  

Of course, the 'life' lived must continue on, and we know God doesn't work in the mystical, He works in laws, so the 'bare grain' would have to be the DNA? along with the 'works' that do follow, to be judged. 

OTHER than that, I THINK it is the TIMING of 'resurrection' that is causing all the problems.  I believe 'those made alive'/those who have died and been born again, and made a new creature,  pass from the life 'SEEN' to the life 'UNSEEN' without ANOTHER death

and especially not a death that TAKES AWAY from the eternal life received when we were born again.  (unless we throw it away in favor of the ways of the world)

I believe those who DON'T die and resurrect with Christ WHILE THEY LIVETH, DO  DIETH and remain deadeth  until His return.  (when some of  THESE DEAD will be raised up in the resurrection of the just and unjust)


What Scriptures do you read that makes you believe that ANY PART of you AWAITS a  'future, last day' resurrection as opposed to a 'present, last day' one?  Have you ever asked 'why would God have us 'walk separate' in this world,  then put us all together in DEATH?  Why would those MADE ALIVE be made dead and be treated like the dead? I DON'T know OR understand exactly what those who believe in a last day resurrection believe, so I must speculate and apologize if I get it wrong.  I don't want to put words in your mouth.  

I think we need to come to an understanding of what was believed under the OT and what prophecy was fulfilled before we can figure out what was CHANGED by the work Christ did and what that means to us.  So,

Would you agree with me,  that under the OT that those who died in sin,  went to be amongst the rest of the dead in hell/grave/wrong side of the gulf, and those that 'came to faith' went to paradise/the place of the living/the right side of the gulf?
Would you agree that those who died PERFECT under the law also went to the right side of the gulf?

 Would you agree the OT prophecy spoke of the Messiah who would come and bring in the Kingdom of heaven,  and at that time 'the dead would rise'?


 So, when you say 'a and b' I can't grasp that concept.  If I say 'both',  I feel like I have opened up GODS words to my thought process and that leads to errors, as I see it.  I don't like opening doors like that.  Now if the Holy Spirit does, then I will walk through.  But when it is a conscience decision on my part, I won't.  

Maybe it is easy for me to see it like that because I don't believe in 'death' for a saved soul, I don't count them amongst the dead either. I don't believe it is possible for those who's ransom has been paid, who have been washed clean, who have the righteousness of Christ imputed to them TO BE DEAD, to be in the same state they were in BEFORE JESUS completed all that work.  I don't believe that Christ defeated death  JUST for Himself and not anyone else, TILL LATER ON.  

I know if I would have paid a ransom for my family, I would be expecting their IMMEDIATE release. But that is just me.   I do THANK GOD I believe that way because the THOUGHT of being separated from God once this flesh has done its job is unbearable.  God being the God of the living and NOT THE DEAD.  

This is what I hear Paul is saying here,

 2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 Corinthians 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

2 Corinthians 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

2 Corinthians 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

2 Corinthians 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

That being a part of the 'bare grain' to which God gives a body...perhaps of wheat, or others kinds.  

The 'dead' don't appear before the judgment seat of Christ, they will be standing in judgment at the end of the Lords day when the books are opened.  Notice 'only the dead' are judged at that time.  

Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

(give immortality to the mortal soul of us, bring that spiritual body to life, the flesh one being made dead)

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear;

but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

 

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

 
Would a JOINT HEIR WITH CHRIST BE AMONGST THE DEAD?   


I hope this not only answers the question,  but helps in our work to find the Truth.  

[AdHoc]

12 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

This is where we first part ways. 

Thess 4 
YOU SAY THE "saints 'THOUGHT'  a Christian 'would miss the rapture...."  WHERE ARE THOSE THOUGHTS WRITTEN?   I have NEVER SEEN any thing LIKE THAT written in Gods words and 

Since ONLY HIS WORDS have been 'purified' ALL I CAN TRUST are GODS WORDS.  

I know if you could show me where IT was WRITTEN, you would, but   

you can not.  You can talk above it and around it over it and under it and you can give me thousands of reasons for those thoughts, but WHAT you CAN NOT DO, is show me where ANY of them can be found.  THAT is our first problem. 


Until you DO THAT EVERYTHING that you say that 'follows' that premise must be THROWN OUT as it is NOT based ON GODS WORDS,  but mans wisdom and knowledge and there is no reason to discuss it AT ALL. 

SO what I am REJECTING is EVERYTHING that STEMS from 'mans wisdom and knowledge'.  

So where we stand RIGHT NOW IS you need to put forth YOUR BASIC PREMISE from the words of God.  Once you do that, we can move forward.    



It is so strange how PRE TRIB Rapture just suddenly APPEARS out of thin air and no one seems to notice.   
 

1Thessalonians 4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

1Thessalonians 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

1Thessalonians 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

1Thessalonians 4:10 And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;

1Thessalonians 4:11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;

1Thessalonians 4:12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.

1Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

No mention the CHRISTIANS are thinking 'those who died MISSED THE RAPTURE' ONLY they have sorrow because of those who have died?  I would  be sad to if I thought my family was in Hades too. 

Christs 'return' hasn't even been brought up, so it hasn't anything to do with the conversation so far.  Even if we go back to Matt 1 and read straight through to here, NOT ONE WORD of what you are proposing 'as truth' can be found ANYWHERE.  SO,  leaving that 'premise' UNTIL you can show me that to be a truth, I go with what is written and so far, all that is given is,  

we SHOULD NOT BE IGNORANT like the heathen, who have no hope

we should not be sad CONCERNING those who have died

and now we are going to be told WHY we shouldn't be.  
 

1Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,


We shouldn't be sad because we believe Jesus HAS RISEN.


even so them


And we should be BELIEVING 'even so them' have RISEN ALSO.   And THAT is about to be PROVED correct,  by what follows.  


also which sleep in Jesus


NOW we can know for POSITIVE that ROSE is EXACTLY WHAT IS BEING SPOKEN OF since the 'sleep' part was just ruled out 


will God bring with him.


AND WITH THAT PART OF THE VERSE, THERE CAN BE NO DOUBT left at all.  So without all the STUFF you yourself BROUGHT INTO THE TEXT,

" WHAT IS WRITTEN" IS straight forward and simple and  what I keep saying IT IS.  




and HERE comes the BEST proof of all.   

NOTHING IS STOPPING THEM FROM GOING TO BE WITH THE LORD. 

THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE DON'T STOP THOSE WHO ARE DEAD FROM GOING TO BE WITH THE LORD. 

THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE DON'T 'PREVENT OR HINDER OR HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THOSE WHO HAVE DIED BEING RAISED UP. 

EVERY SINGLE 'SAVED SOUL'  UP UNTIL THE 'ALIVE AND REMAINING' ARE CHANGED, GO TO BE WITH THE LORD.  



IF THE ALIVE AND REMAINING DID PREVENT THE DEAD FROM RISING, THEN, AND ONLY THEN, WOULD IT BE POSSIBLE FOR EVERYONE BE RAISED/RESURRECTED,  AT ONE TIME OR ON A 'LAST DAY' .   
 

1Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


TRY AND GET THAT RIGHT.  


If the last ones were stopping the first ones,  THEN THERE WOULD BE A BIG GROUP OF ALL THE DEAD.  


THE FIRST ones to DIE,  don't WAIT for the last ones,

and if there is no one preventing them, if NO ONE IS STOPPING THEM, 

if no one is holding them back from their GOING ON to be with the LORD


THEN THERE IS NO WAY FOR 'EVERYONE' TO BE RESURRECTED AT THE SAME TIME.  

 

 

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I realize I keep asking this same question over and over and over again, but HOW DO YOU GET FROM

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?

TO PAUL SHOWING

HOW 'THE DEAD'...


Colossians 2:8 - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

 

Matthew 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

They are looking for their reward.   Today 'the reward' is a  PRE TRIB RAPTURE, isn't it?  BUT what does The Lord tell them?    

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matthew 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
 

He certainly knew of His return for the Day of Vengeance (by closing Isiah).  He spoke of His return many times AND NEVER did He mention a PRE TRIB RAPTURE not the slightest hesitation ever, not a single side reference, not a hint.     


Could you EXPLAIN to me who you believe 'the woman' who is protected for the  3 1/2 years Satan is here is?  There ISN'T enough TIME for 'a new church' rising up from what would be the timing of a 'rap' to his arrival.  

Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Revelation 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

Revelation 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

You see, when you take 'the church' off the face of the earth, there is no WOMAN to fly into the wilderness to be nourished.  

This is a problem for me because I believe 'the true church' is the woman.  And 'she will be protected while  Satan is here.  I believe it is only Gods very elect who will be given up to death, who will have 10 day trials, who the Holy Spirit will speak through.  Those who don't 'need' an escape made because it isnt more than they can handle, who can handle whatever is put before them, who WANT to STAND for the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

 

Romans 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

Romans 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

 

Your main, and first objection was that there is no indication that the saints in Thessaloniki "THOUGHT" that the dead has missed the rapture. The rest of your writings are an address to your own thoughts - as I did not address them. So I only address your stated objection that there is no evidence of what the problem in Thessaloniki and why Paul wrote to them. I will paste the text and, as you have indicated, comment on the verses:

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

Paul desires to remove "ignorance". This implies that the saints at Thessaloniki were ignorant about something. That something is "them which are asleep" - those who had died. Paul acknowledged that they were "sorrowing", and that their appreciation of the death of their brethren has dissipated their "Hope".

Now, my esteemed sister, whether Paul was informed by word of mouth, by letter or by a vision from God, the saints in Thessaloniki HAD THOUGHTS ABOUT THEM WHICH HAD DIED WHICH CAUSED THEM SORROW AND ABATED THEIR HOPE. And the content of the following THREE verses should lead them to be "COMFORTED" (v.17).

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Both Enoch and Paul state categorically that when Jesus comes, the saints will be with Him. This presents a problem. The saints, like David in Acts 2:27-34, are in Hades - below the earth. There is only one way that dead men in graves, whose souls are in Hades, can be present with the Lord in the sky when He comes - RESURRECTION for the dead, and then RAPTURE for ALL. So in both verse 13 and 14 Paul produces the RESURRECTION of Jesus as proof.

Now, why did Paul mention this? The reason is that the "THOUGHTS" of the saints in Thessaloniki were wrong. They were "IGNORANT" of this process. The word "ignorant" indicates that one's UNDERSTANDING is FAULTY

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Paul corrects the understanding that the LIVING saints will "PREVENT" the dead. the word "PREVENT" is a compound word made of "PRE" (meaning "before"), and "VENT" (which comes from "advent" meaning a "coming"). The understanding that Paul corrects is that the dead would miss the Rapture which would take the LIVING to the sky so that they could return WITH Christ.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Thus, Paul gives the SEQUENCE in verse 16;
1. The Lord DESCENDS (from the Father's throne) to the clouds just above earth
2. The Lord shouts, just as John 5:28 says - "His VOICE" and those in the GRAVES respond by being RAISED
3. To where are they raised? To where was Christ raised? To the earth's surface to talk to Mary. The dead join "those who are alive and remain".
4. What means "FIRST". It means that FIRST thing is NOT the rapture of the living. The FIRST thing is RESURRECTION.

Why did Paul tell of these things, these events, these timings because the "THOUGHTS" of the saint did ERR. If not, Paul told in vain.

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

"THEN"! What means "THEN"? It is the FOLLOWING STEP to a SEQUENCE. "TOGETHER"! What means "TOGETHER"? It means that the LIVING who were raptured JOINED the RISEN DEAD for the journey to the sky. Where did they join company? ON THE SURFACE OF THE EARTH. "WITH THEM! It is clear, the LIVING do not PREVENT the dead NEITHER do the dead PREVENT the living, as you maintain. The are raptured TOGETHER. they leave earth TOGETHER for a meeting with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

And so are the sorrows of the saints stilled. Their "ignorance" is removed.  Their THOUGHTS are corrected. So, I hope, are yours.

I dare say that this passage reflects the THOUGHTS of the saints of the Church at Thessaloniki verse by verse.

 

 

[DeighAnn]

40 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Both Enoch and Paul state categorically that when Jesus comes, the saints will be with Him. This presents a problem. The saints, like David in Acts 2:27-34, are in Hades - below the earth.

Both Enoch and Paul state catagorically that when Jesus comes the saints will be with HIM.  

This doesn't present a problem because


if we believe Jesus died and rose,

THEN WE MUST BELIEVE

 just like Jesus WE DIE AND ARE RAISED UP (aka EVEN SO THEM).  

WE ARE NOT SENT DOWN, we do not become 'the dead'. 

We HAVE TO BE raised up because WE NEVER DIE. 

We have to be raised up because WE HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE GIFT of Salvation.

We have to be raised up because we are brought back WITH HIM

We have to be raised up because that is where Jesus went to prepare a place for us

We have to be raised up because we go to be WHERE HE IS and HE IS IN HEAVEN

We have to be raised up because HE brings us TO the Father, not brings the Father to us.  

We have to be raised up because He says we know the way,  not that we wait His return

We have to be raised up because 'the dead' who were SAVED when Jesus descended were raised up with his dead body 2000 years ag0 and since then those who liveth and believe NEVER DIE.

We have to be raised up because those made alive, aren't 'the dead'. 

We have to be raised up because the blood of the Lamb makes us without sin, NO SIN, NO DEATH

We have to be raised up because we already died and were raised up with Christ AND ARE SEATED IN HEAVENLY PLACES

We have to be raised up because HE COMES WITH the saints, not comes to RAISE the saints

We have to be raised up because IF THE DEAD DON'T RISE,  then Christ isn't risen.  And that isn't written in FUTURE TENSE.  

We have to be raised up because God is not the God of 'the dead'. 

We have to be raised up because when the earthen vessel breaks our spirit returns to GOD, doesn't go to Hades

We have to be raised up because we are under GRACE, not the law of sin and death

We have to be raised up because we have become joint heirs with Christ, heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

We have to be raised up because the Holy Spirit dwells within us

We have to be raised up because eternal life doesn't take a pause for death

We have to be raised up because Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

We have to be raised up because Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven, not DEATH and being dead in Hades.



The last day took place 2000 years ago.  Since then those made alive go on living in heaven they will  return with Christ and when Christ and the saints arrive,  the alive and remaining will be changed and brought up to be with the rest of the saints to be ever with the Lord.  

THAT IS HOW THE WORDS WRITTEN PLAY OUT WITHOUT ANYONE ADDING 'A LAST DAY' RESURRECTION TO  THE UNDERSTANDING.  

Why that verse seems to dictate the SAVED going to be amongst the dead until the bitter end I can only guess.  

Anyway, this is all I read of your reply so far and now I have to go but when I get back I will address what ever comes after this part.  Thank you for your patience. 






 

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

Okay. Let's do it this way. 

" It is down a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body...." (1 Cor. 15:44).

True or False: The natural body is changed into the spiritual body ( if one is born again) at Christ's return.

FALSE. 

The natural body ONLY CONTRIBUTES 'BUT A BARE GRAIN'. 

FALSE.  

It takes place on the SAVED persons last day, NOT THE EARTH AGE'S LAST DAY. The earths last day is when THE DEAD RISE.  The ALIVE are returning.  


A SINGLE CELL, IF YOU WILL.  There are probably a thousand cells all about you right now no longer attached to your body.  They have NOTHING to do with you continuing on living exactly as you have been doing all your life.  

BUT THAT ONE CELL GIVES ALL THE INFORMATION ABOUT YOUR 'NATURAL BODY' THAT IS NEEDED TO REPLICATE IT INTO A SPIRITUAL BODY.  So that SEED is not YOUR NATURAL BODY AT ALL.

There is a natural body AND there is a spiritual body.  

LET ME BE VERY CLEAR -  THERE ARE 2 BODIES.  NOT ONE TURNING INTO THE OTHER.  One is for this SEEN world.  One for the unseen world. 

IT IS SOWN A BODY NATURAL, IT IS RAISED A BODY SPIRITUAL

 

 

[DeighAnn]

The carcass goes down, the SPIRIT AND SOUL AND THE WORKS (The SEED) find themselves in the UNSEEN world.  No less 'alive' than we are RIGHT NOW, we are just in THE 'BODY' of that world.  The spiritual world.  The presently unseen world, the unseen world that will become the SEEN WORLD when Jesus RETURNS.  The reason we SEE the 'dead' rise and the reason we SEE the alive and remaining CHANGED.  The 'world' we are living in completely changes.  INCORRUPTIBLE BODIES. Only way to die is in lake of fire.  THE EARTH is even waiting for the moment the SONS OF GOD ARE MADE MANIFEST.   

FLESH AND BLOOD CAN NOT... BECAUSE THAT 'AGE' HAS COME TO AN END.  HEAVEN HAS COME TO THE EARTH.  

GREEK
IF THERE IS A BODY NATURAL, THERE IS ALSO SPIRITUAL.
2532. kai ►
Strong's Concordance
kai: and, even, also
Original Word: καί
Part of Speech: Conjunction
Transliteration: kai
Phonetic Spelling: (kahee)
Definition: and, even, also
Usage: and, even, also, namely.
HELPS Word-studies
2532 kaí (the most common NT conjunction, used over 9,000 times) – and (also), very often, moreover, even, indeed (the context determines the exact sense).

[After 2532 (kaí), the most common word in the Greek NT is the definite article ("the"). 2532 (kaí) is never adversative, i.e. it never means "however" ("but") – unlike the principal conjunction (waw) in OT Hebrew (G. Archer).]

WHAT IS THE SUBJECT?  

1Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

What would 'we shall all sleep' tell us?  THAT EVERYONE WOULD DIE.  But everyone doesn't

So we are told EVERYONE ISN'T GOING TO DIE.  We are talking about the very last day because that will be the only time that 'death or change' ARE REQUIRED to take place at the same time for the whole world,  the exact SAME MOMENT in time.  

Now we know that when Christ returns EVERY SOUL ON THE PLANET WILL NOT BE DROPPING DEAD AKA GOING TO SLEEP

 that SOME of those on the planet WILL NOT be going to sleep EVER.  

WHO WILL NOT BE DROPPING DEAD AT HIS RETURN?   Those who have overcome the tribulation of Satan.  Those who have endured to the end without having fallen away from TRUTH, from God.  Those who will not have been deceived.  Those who will not have worshipped the beast along with the whole world.  Those who will have not bowed a knee to the image.  Those who will not have taken the mark to buy and sell.  Those who will have over come and stood and maybe had a 10 day trial and the Holy Spirit possibly will have spoken through them, just like on Pentecost. 

Those whom,  the Lords Brightness doesn't destroy,  because THEY HAVE NOT DONE ANYTHING IN DARKNESS.  They are of the day and this day has not come as a thief in the night, this day has come exactly as GOD SAID IT WOULD.  They have remained faithful to God.  They have obeyed what is written by putting on the gospel armor, by staying sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

They WILL not be found amongst THESE souls 

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

Revelation 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

 Jesus DOES come ever so unexpectedly to those of the night, those who have been deceived, those who have fallen away, those who are hearing and BELIEVING in the 'peace and safety' and happy the two witnesses have been killed when SURPRISE SURPRISE, the TWO WITNESSES rise up from the street and ARE SEEN GOING UP INTO THE SKY.  

HEAVEN is becoming SEEN.  BRIGHTNESS IS SHINNING UPON all the DECEPTION that has been taking place.  ALL THE LIES are being brought out into the open.  Realization that WHAT IS WRITTEN IS THE ONLY TRUTH, IS THE ONLY LIFE, IS THE ONLY WAY and everything AND everyway that is not of HIS TRUTH is DEATH. 

And those who have been deceived aren't going to fair any better that Ananias and Sapphira did.  They are just going to 'give up the ghost' and the birds are going to eat their flesh.

SO WHAT HAPPENS TO ALL THOSE WHO HAVE DIED IN THE WORLD?  WHAT ABOUT THOSE WHO NEVER HEARD THE WORDS OF GOD?  OR WERE DECEIVED, SATAN CORRUPTING THEIR SOULS, causing them to become unfaithful to God.  What happens when the BRIDEGROOM comes and finds his 'no longer a virgin bride with child'?  

We know what happens to the FLESH body of them but what about their spirits/souls?  Do they go into the grave to await the end of the millennium to have death and hell deliver them up?  What if they just were NEVER TAUGHT TRUTH?  Should they be cast into the lake of fire?  Would that be Just?  NO.  Though they have always been spiritually dead, or become spiritually dead we know that the DEAD WILL RISE when Christ returns.  After all WE HAVE TO HAVE SOMEONE TO RULE AND REIGN OVER FOR THE NEXT 1000 YEARS.  

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

WHO is changed?  THOSE who are alive and remain.  THE DEAD RISE and the ALIVE are changed.  

Those who we are not sorrowing for are RETURNING with Christ.  They have been going to be with Him in heaven for the past 2000 years.  All the believers left in the world go to join them.  

1Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

How do we know there is no DEATH in the Millennium?  EVERYONE has had their FIRST DEATH.  The only one left is LOF.  Man can not kill an incorruptible body, only GOD CAN.  So there will be no 'murder' during the Millennium.  
 

1Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

1Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

 

[DeighAnn]

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Paul corrects the understanding that the LIVING saints will "PREVENT" the dead. the word "PREVENT" is a compound word made of "PRE" (meaning "before"), and "VENT" (which comes from "advent" meaning a "coming"). The understanding that Paul corrects is that the dead would miss the Rapture which would take the LIVING to the sky so that they could return WITH Christ.

Still making those given ETERNAL LIFERS part of the dead, huh?  That must be hard to do.  

NEVER DIE equals and/or 'really means' death or being dead?  Nothing about that seems the least bit OFF to you?  



5348. phthanó ►
Strong's Concordance
phthanó: to come before (another), anticipate, arrive
Original Word: φθάνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: phthanó
Phonetic Spelling: (fthan'-o)
Definition: to come before (another), anticipate, arrive
Usage: (a) I anticipate, precede, (b) I come, arrive.
HELPS Word-studies
5348 phthánō – properly, precede, arrive ahead of time, i.e. before something which indicates priority in importance or sequence.


Christ in the sky IS HERE.  HE IS SEEN BY THE WHOLE WORLD. 

HEAVEN HAS COME BY THAT TIME.  

THE DEAD SEEN RISING TELLS US HEAVEN IS UPON US, it is NOT ON THE WAY, it is not 'returning', it has, at that point ARRIVED.  The timing doesn't work that way.