Different peoples, Different covenants, Different deaths, will NEVER fit into an 'either/or' explanation

[DeighAnn]

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

And so are the sorrows of the saints stilled. Their "ignorance" is removed.  Their THOUGHTS are corrected. So, I hope, are yours.

I dare say that this passage reflects the THOUGHTS of the saints of the Church at Thessaloniki verse by verse.

How could my THOUGHTS  possibly be corrected 

when those who have been given eternal life by GOD,

told they would NEVER DIE by the Lord,

told they would go be where He is

are instead called THE DEAD and sent to hell, by man? 

I find not comfort in that at all.  

So how does this work 'pre trib'?

[kwikphilly]

12 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Morning Kwik, and blessings to you. And yes the correct question, but

I don't understand your answer.  Maybe I am too 'simple', but when GOD SAYS 

'you sow NOT THE BODY THAT WILL BE' 

to me, THAT is what God means.  In my heart and in my soul, it is not up for  debate.  It isn't a complex sentence.  It is a straightforward, simple statement of fact.  Nothing about this 'natural' body has anything to do with the spiritual body.  There are 2 bodies.  

Of course, the 'life' lived must continue on, and we know God doesn't work in the mystical, He works in laws, so the 'bare grain' would have to be the DNA? along with the 'works' that do follow, to be judged. 

OTHER than that, I THINK it is the TIMING of 'resurrection' that is causing all the problems.  I believe 'those made alive'/those who have died and been born again, and made a new creature,  pass from the life 'SEEN' to the life 'UNSEEN' without ANOTHER death

and especially not a death that TAKES AWAY from the eternal life received when we were born again.  (unless we throw it away in favor of the ways of the world)

I believe those who DON'T die and resurrect with Christ WHILE THEY LIVETH, DO  DIETH and remain deadeth  until His return.  (when some of  THESE DEAD will be raised up in the resurrection of the just and unjust)


What Scriptures do you read that makes you believe that ANY PART of you AWAITS a  'future, last day' resurrection as opposed to a 'present, last day' one?  Have you ever asked 'why would God have us 'walk separate' in this world,  then put us all together in DEATH?  Why would those MADE ALIVE be made dead and be treated like the dead? I DON'T know OR understand exactly what those who believe in a last day resurrection believe, so I must speculate and apologize if I get it wrong.  I don't want to put words in your mouth.  

I think we need to come to an understanding of what was believed under the OT and what prophecy was fulfilled before we can figure out what was CHANGED by the work Christ did and what that means to us.  So,

Would you agree with me,  that under the OT that those who died in sin,  went to be amongst the rest of the dead in hell/grave/wrong side of the gulf, and those that 'came to faith' went to paradise/the place of the living/the right side of the gulf?
Would you agree that those who died PERFECT under the law also went to the right side of the gulf?

 Would you agree the OT prophecy spoke of the Messiah who would come and bring in the Kingdom of heaven,  and at that time 'the dead would rise'?


 So, when you say 'a and b' I can't grasp that concept.  If I say 'both',  I feel like I have opened up GODS words to my thought process and that leads to errors, as I see it.  I don't like opening doors like that.  Now if the Holy Spirit does, then I will walk through.  But when it is a conscience decision on my part, I won't.  

Maybe it is easy for me to see it like that because I don't believe in 'death' for a saved soul, I don't count them amongst the dead either. I don't believe it is possible for those who's ransom has been paid, who have been washed clean, who have the righteousness of Christ imputed to them TO BE DEAD, to be in the same state they were in BEFORE JESUS completed all that work.  I don't believe that Christ defeated death  JUST for Himself and not anyone else, TILL LATER ON.  

I know if I would have paid a ransom for my family, I would be expecting their IMMEDIATE release. But that is just me.   I do THANK GOD I believe that way because the THOUGHT of being separated from God once this flesh has done its job is unbearable.  God being the God of the living and NOT THE DEAD.  

This is what I hear Paul is saying here,

 2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 Corinthians 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

2 Corinthians 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

2 Corinthians 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

2 Corinthians 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

That being a part of the 'bare grain' to which God gives a body...perhaps of wheat, or others kinds.  

The 'dead' don't appear before the judgment seat of Christ, they will be standing in judgment at the end of the Lords day when the books are opened.  Notice 'only the dead' are judged at that time.  

Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

(give immortality to the mortal soul of us, bring that spiritual body to life, the flesh one being made dead)

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear;

but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

 

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

 
Would a JOINT HEIR WITH CHRIST BE AMONGST THE DEAD?   


I hope this not only answers the question,  but helps in our work to find the Truth.  

Blessings D

 Im sorry Ive not read the entire post, its quite long for me but I promise I will the moment I get caught up here ( alot of notifications, pms etc...)

 However I did read the first part of your reply & it seems you are saying the exact same thing as I said( in 2 sentences)...It appears that I am the " simple woman" lol

I also agree 100 % that what Jesus Says( in those 2 sentences) is not debatable.... Very clear, very concise!

 I promise to get back to go over all that you said.... I just didnt want to leave you hanging

 In Christs love, kwik

[kwikphilly]

16 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Morning Kwik, and blessings to you. And yes the correct question, but

I don't understand your answer.  Maybe I am too 'simple', but when GOD SAYS 

'you sow NOT THE BODY THAT WILL BE' 

to me, THAT is what God means.  In my heart and in my soul, it is not up for  debate.  It isn't a complex sentence.  It is a straightforward, simple statement of fact.  Nothing about this 'natural' body has anything to do with the spiritual body.  There are 2 bodies.  

Of course, the 'life' lived must continue on, and we know God doesn't work in the mystical, He works in laws, so the 'bare grain' would have to be the DNA? along with the 'works' that do follow, to be judged. 

OTHER than that, I THINK it is the TIMING of 'resurrection' that is causing all the problems.  I believe 'those made alive'/those who have died and been born again, and made a new creature,  pass from the life 'SEEN' to the life 'UNSEEN' without ANOTHER death

and especially not a death that TAKES AWAY from the eternal life received when we were born again.  (unless we throw it away in favor of the ways of the world)

I believe those who DON'T die and resurrect with Christ WHILE THEY LIVETH, DO  DIETH and remain deadeth  until His return.  (when some of  THESE DEAD will be raised up in the resurrection of the just and unjust)


What Scriptures do you read that makes you believe that ANY PART of you AWAITS a  'future, last day' resurrection as opposed to a 'present, last day' one?  Have you ever asked 'why would God have us 'walk separate' in this world,  then put us all together in DEATH?  Why would those MADE ALIVE be made dead and be treated like the dead? I DON'T know OR understand exactly what those who believe in a last day resurrection believe, so I must speculate and apologize if I get it wrong.  I don't want to put words in your mouth.  

I think we need to come to an understanding of what was believed under the OT and what prophecy was fulfilled before we can figure out what was CHANGED by the work Christ did and what that means to us.  So,

Would you agree with me,  that under the OT that those who died in sin,  went to be amongst the rest of the dead in hell/grave/wrong side of the gulf, and those that 'came to faith' went to paradise/the place of the living/the right side of the gulf?
Would you agree that those who died PERFECT under the law also went to the right side of the gulf?

 Would you agree the OT prophecy spoke of the Messiah who would come and bring in the Kingdom of heaven,  and at that time 'the dead would rise'?


 So, when you say 'a and b' I can't grasp that concept.  If I say 'both',  I feel like I have opened up GODS words to my thought process and that leads to errors, as I see it.  I don't like opening doors like that.  Now if the Holy Spirit does, then I will walk through.  But when it is a conscience decision on my part, I won't.  

Maybe it is easy for me to see it like that because I don't believe in 'death' for a saved soul, I don't count them amongst the dead either. I don't believe it is possible for those who's ransom has been paid, who have been washed clean, who have the righteousness of Christ imputed to them TO BE DEAD, to be in the same state they were in BEFORE JESUS completed all that work.  I don't believe that Christ defeated death  JUST for Himself and not anyone else, TILL LATER ON.  

I know if I would have paid a ransom for my family, I would be expecting their IMMEDIATE release. But that is just me.   I do THANK GOD I believe that way because the THOUGHT of being separated from God once this flesh has done its job is unbearable.  God being the God of the living and NOT THE DEAD.  

This is what I hear Paul is saying here,

 2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 Corinthians 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

2 Corinthians 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

2 Corinthians 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

2 Corinthians 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

That being a part of the 'bare grain' to which God gives a body...perhaps of wheat, or others kinds.  

The 'dead' don't appear before the judgment seat of Christ, they will be standing in judgment at the end of the Lords day when the books are opened.  Notice 'only the dead' are judged at that time.  

Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

(give immortality to the mortal soul of us, bring that spiritual body to life, the flesh one being made dead)

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear;

but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

 

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

 
Would a JOINT HEIR WITH CHRIST BE AMONGST THE DEAD?   


I hope this not only answers the question,  but helps in our work to find the Truth.  

Hi again Sis D

 Okay, Ill breifly address only a couple of things in addition to what I replied to in the first place..... I chose to reply to ONE question & chose not to participate in any others.... If you look back at your question you asked if the answer was " A" or "B" and that is why I said both A & B, that is not something I pulled out of thin air.... Jesus SIMPLY Says the same thing 2 ways.....

 Now, let me give you some insight-Im injured so Im using my phone to type, I cant do quotes nor can I do more than 1 tab at a time or see very much without scrolling, scrolling , scrolling up n down so I can only recall one thing at a time from memory.... I cannot respond to an epic saga from memory alone..... Hope you can understand my position at this time snd why Im not joining in on the really long stuff...

 So, from recollecting your question after stating you didnt get A & B( which was my agreement with your statements both btw)   and remember I cant show you with copy/ paste quote.  Then yes, you did put words in my mouth because I did not say, think or even consider what you alleged I believe???

 Then you went on about " the gulf" asking if I agreed there are those waiting on the Hades side & thosr.on a paradise side..... I could only tell you that is in alignment with Jesus story about Lazarus..... What I believe is irrelevant & would go way off Topic but you also asked if I thought that those who kept the Law perfectly would be waiting on paradise side..... I.dont believe there ever lived a man who could keep the whole Law perfectly

So Sister I know you like to address every single topic thats relevant to the subject matter in one post but I just dont( wont) do it.... Talk about simple( lol) thats me! I just do one at a time, post one at time so I can focus on 1 thing at time....when Im healed & can sit at the computer I can multi task again

Have a beautiful day in our Lord..... Yippee Sunday! Praise Jesus!

With love in Christ, kwik❤

 

[AdHoc]

14 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Still making those given ETERNAL LIFERS part of the dead, huh?  That must be hard to do.  

NEVER DIE equals and/or 'really means' death or being dead?  Nothing about that seems the least bit OFF to you?

Not only did I give a commentary on that verse in John 11, which you never answered, but you display a strange appreciation for the Bible. You make to lie - for the One Who was born of God, possessing eternal life from the womb, is said - not once - to have died. His death is the central theme of the Bible and you deny it by your doctrine. Surely that alone should make you reconsider.

C'mon sister. If you've attained even a young 25 years of this life you know that Christians die. And the interesting thing is that we weep for our loved ones who have died. Death is real - Christian or infidel.

Your theories of no death and a second body waiting to zoom up to heaven at the death of the first are fiction. You made it fiction yourself for, the original death you designated as "Captivity" - which was have denied, but then claimed that it is led Captive by the great work of our Lord.

If we take your thesis, from this mysterious title of the thread, to death that is not death, to a secret body in heaven, but needing to go to heaven - except Jesus Who then has NO PREEMINENCE for He is the only man to do it otherwise .... ???

If you had maybe taken up my challenge to set forth a paper on the matter, documented with scripture, you would have seen all the walls you would, and now have, run into. I think its time for a weekend off and a fresh start.  I advise this as a friend. If you come to a crossroads in the Bible and you take the wrong road of understanding, the errors and confusion just compound themselves the further you go down it. It is a wonderful test given by God to save you descending into utter confusion.

Come. let us retrace your steps.

[DeighAnn]

13 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

you stated: "LET ME BE VERY CLEAR -  THERE ARE 2 BODIES.  NOT ONE TURNING INTO THE OTHER.  One is for this SEEN world.  One for the unseen world."

I'm sorry I just have to disagree. 

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The dead body is changed as well as the bodies of those alive in Christ at His coming. I don't understand why you don't understand.

19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead (Is.26). 

Even though Ez.37 is allegorical in nature, nevertheless our resurrection has an intimate relationship with it's former self....namely very dry bones.

" Can these bones live?"

AND THE GRAVES OF HIS PEOPLE WERE OPENED, RIGHT?  WHO OPENED THE GRAVES?  WHEN WERE THE GRAVES OPENED?  WHO WAS BEING PREACED TO?

 

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

FINALLY, NICE TO SEE SOMEONE INCLUDING THE CHURCH IN the WHOLE HOUSE OF ISRAEL.  

Ezekiel 37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

Ezekiel 37:10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

Ezekiel 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

Ezekiel 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

Ezekiel 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

Ezekiel 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

 








WHY can't I get it?  BECAUSE OF WHAT JESUS says.  Makes EVERYTHING you say SUSPECT, since you are NOT SAYING WHAT HE SAID.  SINCE He is the one who is THE TRUTH, THE WORD, THE LIFE, THE WAY, THE RESURRECTION, I would be SOTTISH not to listen to what He says.  

No ONE wants to deal with the PROBLEM.  NEVER DIE.

I am sorry if all your lives you have been SEEING those who have been BORN AGAIN,  MADE ALIVE, NEVER DIE 

AS THE DEAD.  WITH THE DEAD.  AMONGST THE DEAD.  RESURRECTING FROM THE DEAD.  

Our 'spiritual' body stemming from DEATH in any way is just NOT RIGHT.  

It doesn't sound right, it doesn't feel right, and the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD can't be found there.  Only a blind man can't see that.    

 DEATH and FLESH is at enmity with GOD.  Those in the flesh can't please GOD.  SO why would GOD who is promising us a better world to come AFTER this one,  where EVERY THING is made new, where all remembrance of this world is to be forgotten, USE ANYTHING that had to do with the fallen state of mankind,  ESPECIALLY the FLESH that HE HIMSELF repented of putting us in, especially for

FOR OUR ETERNAL GLORIFIED SPIRITUAL BODIES?

The answer is simple.  He wouldn't.  The thought wouldn't even cross His mind. 

BUT you know who would LOVE for us to believe that DEAD FLESH was to be made eternal?


Back to 'the twinkling of an eye'.  What is happening?  Better quit trying to see it in the terms of carnal eyes and open up the spiritual ones because

THAT IS THE DAY THAT HAS ARRIVED.  THE LABOR PAINS, SO HARD AND INTENSE IN THE VERY END HAVE CEASED,  HAVE ENDED

BECAUSE A NEW AGE HAS BEEN BORN.  

Heaven is ON EARTH.  The spiritual world IS SEEN BECAUSE EVERY ONE IS IN SPIRITUAL BODIES.  Flesh and blood can not what?

You are trying to make THE WORDS themselves fit without taking into consideration THE REALITY of the situation.  The words are coming into conflict with THE TRUTH.  

NEVER DIE.  

So what happens to a being THAT NEVER DIES? 

Would a JUST GOD send a SAVED SOUL, A SAVED SPIRIT, AN ETERNAL SPIRITUAL BODY, AN ADOPTED SON, A NEW CREATURE, A JOINT HEIR WITH CHRIST, A DWELLING FOR THE HOLY SPIRIT

TO hades 

WHILE He HIMSELF, sits in the Spiritual REALM, in His Kingdom in heaven, with elders and creatures and angels to numerous to count with Enoch, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Elijah along with HOW MANY of these?

Revelation 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

Revelation 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Jude 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Jude 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

Jude 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Jude 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

Jude 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Revelation 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

There is a 'theory' out there that says Jesus is coming to rapture you away.  That says that Jesus is coming to gather His church BEFORE Satan comes.  There are excuses made to get around every objection such as '

He ONLY comes to the air of the earth so that isn't the 2nd Advent,

his angels do or don't do the gathering so that isn't the 2nd Advent

the church is 'gentile', not the scattered sheep of the House of Israel, so that isn't the 2nd Advent

the church is 'kept' from the hour, so that isn't the 2nd Advent

the church is 'delivered' TO HEAVEN, so that isn't the 2nd Advent, NOT to mention  FLAT OUT WRONG as in NOT right, not fair, not just, especially to those who DID GIVE THEIR LIVES for HIS NAME'S SAKE.  

God wouldn't allow the church to 'suffer', just Israel, so that isn't the 2nd Advent

His feet don't touch the earth, so that isn't the 2nd Advent

He come with His saints, so that isn't the 2nd Advent


Doesn't matter that God NEVER CHANGES, or God is JUST, or Christ tore down the division between Jew and Greek or they are grafted in becoming joint heirs, or God is sending two witnesses, or the words are written to Christians and the warnings are given to Christians, or Christ said do not be deceived, or Christ said do not believe them when they say HE COMES FIRST, or that the gathering to the Lord comes AFTER the workings of Satan, or AFTER the man of sin is revealed, or AFTER the lying signs and wonders, or that Satan is destroyed by the brightness of His coming, or we are told to put on armor, or we are told to withstand the fiery darts of Satan, or we are told some will be given up for 10 day trials, or we are made ONE, or we are to pick up our cross and follow Him, or we are to suffer persecution and tribulation and affliction, or that we are not to seek to save our lives, or God hates those who teach His children to fly, or we are to endure to the end to receive the promises, or that 'the elders' called 'the raptured church' show up in heaven before the Lion of the tribe of Judah is even found worthy to open the book....

Or that it is written RIGHT AFTER PAUL TELLS US 3 TIMES (kinda like the cock crowing for Peter?) out of ALL THE PLACES IT COULD HAVE BEEN WRITTEN 
 

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:

2 Thessalonians 2:9 EVEN HIM, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth,

but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


LOVE OF THE BRETHREN DOESN'T ALWAYS COME WITH NICE WORDS, SOMETIMES THEY COME WITH MUCH NEED REBUKING.  

 

Edited May 22, 2022 by DeighAnn
HIGHLIGHT 'THESE SLAIN'

[DeighAnn]

7 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

Hi again Sis D

 Okay, Ill breifly address only a couple of things in addition to what I replied to in the first place..... I chose to reply to ONE question & chose not to participate in any others.... If you look back at your question you asked if the answer was " A" or "B" and that is why I said both A & B, that is not something I pulled out of thin air.... Jesus SIMPLY Says the same thing 2 ways.....

 Now, let me give you some insight-Im injured so Im using my phone to type, I cant do quotes nor can I do more than 1 tab at a time or see very much without scrolling, scrolling , scrolling up n down so I can only recall one thing at a time from memory.... I cannot respond to an epic saga from memory alone..... Hope you can understand my position at this time snd why Im not joining in on the really long stuff...

 So, from recollecting your question after stating you didnt get A & B( which was my agreement with your statements both btw)   and remember I cant show you with copy/ paste quote.  Then yes, you did put words in my mouth because I did not say, think or even consider what you alleged I believe???

 Then you went on about " the gulf" asking if I agreed there are those waiting on the Hades side & thosr.on a paradise side..... I could only tell you that is in alignment with Jesus story about Lazarus..... What I believe is irrelevant & would go way off Topic but you also asked if I thought that those who kept the Law perfectly would be waiting on paradise side..... I.dont believe there ever lived a man who could keep the whole Law perfectly

So Sister I know you like to address every single topic thats relevant to the subject matter in one post but I just dont( wont) do it.... Talk about simple( lol) thats me! I just do one at a time, post one at time so I can focus on 1 thing at time....when Im healed & can sit at the computer I can multi task again

Have a beautiful day in our Lord..... Yippee Sunday! Praise Jesus!

With love in Christ, kwik❤

 

I apologize and please understand I WANT to do short posts, one thing at a time, yet find myself to be a COMPLETE FAILURE at doing so.  

I am sorry you are injured and have the health problems you do I COMPLETELY know what that is all about but I have a feeling for the most part you take it in stride as just being what is it and so that's OK.  Makes us appreciate the words of God all the more, IMO.  

What I am really sorry for,  is you having to use your phone.  That hurts.  That tells me of your dedication because IF I had to do this on my phone....I can't tell you if I would even be able to.  I don't think I could, really, I don't think I could do it.  So GOD BLESS YOU FOR THAT too!!!

to keep it simple HOPEFULLY

Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

What did Moses say?  God is the God of the Living and not the dead.  God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.  THAT THE DEAD DO RISE....
 

Luke 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Luke 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

 

The dead  -  Those who are spiritually dead alive in the flesh, Those who are not only spiritually dead but whose flesh has died.  Those who are spiritually alive but died in the flesh under the law.  Those who are spiritually alive who died in the flesh under GRACE etc.   

I think much of our problems come from not rightly dividing and so assigning  to one what should be assigned to the other. 

I believe BEFORE Jesus 'rose out from the dead' that Abraham Isaac and Jacob were ALREADY risen, having 'never died'.  

If they HADN'T  been raised from their 'dead flesh' bodies and gone on to heaven, but had been still in the grave waiting to be resurrected with THE DEAD, then GOD COULD NOT HAVE CALLED HIMSELF THEIR GOD.  

ALREADY GETTING TO LONG AND SO STOPPING.  And you don't have to cover everything,  don't have to quote, just give the basic and I think I can follow.  If not we can have one of those conversations where we aren't really talking with each other just putting our beliefs out there, which I have done quite a few times and sometimes I think might just be just as effective.  When you get to your computer we can really get down to the issue.  Right now, NO STRESS.  And remember, PAIN IMPEDES HEALING.  Some people wont take their pain pills because of fear of addiction and they should find non addicting ones but if no fear take the ones that work best because the body heals so much quicker and better that way....
 

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Not only did I give a commentary on that verse in John 11, which you never answered, but you display a strange appreciation for the Bible.

I will go back and look for it.  I didn't think I had skipped anything,  but I must have.  

 

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You make to lie - for the One Who was born of God, possessing eternal life from the womb, is said - not once - to have died. His death is the central theme of the Bible and you deny it by your doctrine. Surely that alone should make you reconsider.

Please tell me where I MIS STATED that Jesus never died.  I have NEVER held that belief.  NEVER.  WHAT I believe is SINCE HE ROSE FROM THE DEAD, that those who are SAVED NEVER GO TO HADES.  Their FLESH bodies die and they ascend to heaven in their heavenly bodies. 


AGAIN, PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHERE I SAID 'JESUS DIDN'T DIE'

SO I CAN GO AND FIND A WAY TO CORRECT IT.  

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

C'mon sister. If you've attained even a young 25 years of this life you know that Christians die. And the interesting thing is that we weep for our loved ones who have died. Death is real - Christian or infidel.

AGAIN, and I don't know why this is so hard for you to REPEAT CORRECTLY, but

THE FLESH BODY DIES.  The spirit/soul NEVER DIES.  It is RAISED UP.  Not do we stay with the CARCASS of what once was our house on earth.  OUR BEING goes to be with the Lord where He is.  

THE only ones who go DOWN are those who are NOT SAVED.  Their 'beings' don't go to heaven.  

This is WHAT PROVES you still don't understand NEVER DIE, GOING TO BE WITH THE LORD. 
This is why you still have SORROW when someone dies.  If I thought my loved ones  went to Hades, I would be sad too.   BUT when a saved someone I know 'dies',  the only 'sorrow' I feel is FOR MYSELF, not them.  I myself fall more on the side of jealous that they GOT TO DIE and I didn't.  I look at death not as 'agony' for my loved ones but as relief from this world we now walk in.  Those 'left behind' have it hard, not those who are now living in heaven, back with God.  

We are told to rejoice in a death and sorrow at a birth.  
Do you know why?

 

 

4 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Your theories of no death and a second body waiting to zoom up to heaven at the death of the first are fiction. You made it fiction yourself for, the original death you designated as "Captivity" - which was have denied, but then claimed that it is led Captive by the great work of our Lord.

I'll just do this with Scripture
 

MY "THEORY" as you call it,  OF 'NO DEATH' COMES FROM
John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?

So you may NOW stop calling that 'a theory' and start calling it a fact.  Or can you?

 

MY THEORY OF 'a second body waiting to zoom up to heaven at the death of the first'

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

NOTICE, I DON'T 'ADD' A TIME DELAY.  THAT COMES FROM THE THEORIES OF MAN.  I READ WHAT IS WRITTEN AND TAKE IT AS TRUTH.

IT IS SOWN IT IS RAISED =  never die
It is sown, it remains in hades = part of the dead

Then you say "You made it fiction yourself for, the original death you designated as "Captivity" - which was have denied, but then claimed that it is led Captive by the great work of our Lord"

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

 

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Colossians 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, He made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.


Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Ephesians 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Ephesians 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Psalm 68:16 Why leap ye, ye high hills? this is the hill which God desireth to dwell in; yea, the LORD will dwell in it for ever.

Psalm 68:17 The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.

Psalm 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

Psalm 68:19 Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.

Psalm 68:20 He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto GOD the Lord belong the issues from death.

I REST MY CASE.  AS YOU CAN SEE, IT ISN'T A 'THEORY' OR A FICTION AT ALL, THOUGHT IT MAYBE FOR YOU.  


 

4 hours ago, AdHoc said:

If we take your thesis, from this mysterious title of the thread, to death that is not death, to a secret body in heaven, but needing to go to heaven - except Jesus Who then has NO PREEMINENCE for He is the only man to do it otherwise .... ???

Death of the flesh and the spirit/soul/spiritual body going to heaven without a 2000 year stay in Hades is death of the flesh only

The spiritual body is not secret.

Jesus is the only 'flesh' body ever risen out from the dead and gone to heaven.  All of us don't go in our natural flesh earth bodies but in our spiritual ones.  Jesus does have Preeminence.  He will always have ascended higher than anyone.  

4 hours ago, AdHoc said:

If you had maybe taken up my challenge to set forth a paper on the matter, documented with scripture, you would have seen all the walls you would, and now have, run into. I think its time for a weekend off and a fresh start.  I advise this as a friend. If you come to a crossroads in the Bible and you take the wrong road of understanding, the errors and confusion just compound themselves the further you go down it. It is a wonderful test given by God to save you descending into utter confusion.

Come. let us retrace your steps.

Why would I write out a paper when we can't even agree on the words of God?  Until we can come to an understanding of what Jesus says as to NEVER DIE, there is no need for me to put out something that you disagree with.  What would be the point? 

You put out a paper in which those who were told they would NEVER DIE, would go to be where He is, would be following Him, and would come back with Him so they

AREN'T FOUND RISING UP from the dead after 2000 years of being in the grave/death/hell/hades. 

and then I will.  

 

[Cntrysner]

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

If I thought my loved ones  went to Hades, I would be sad too.   BUT when a saved someone I know 'dies',  the only 'sorrow' I feel is FOR MYSELF, not them.  I myself fall more on the side of jealous that they GOT TO DIE and I didn't.  I look at death not as 'agony' for my loved ones but as relief from this world we now walk in.  Those 'left behind' have it hard, not those who are now living in heaven, back with God.  

Well said and Paul would agree with you. You will never get them to understand because they mind the things of the earth and just can't let go of their flesh and what is pleasing to it.

[Cntrysner]

18 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

The dead body is changed as well as the bodies of those alive in Christ at His coming. I don't understand why you don't understand.

What you don't understand is there's a higher heavenly calling of God that is not of this earth. You want resurrection of the flesh then I hope God will at least give it to you but you better be prepared to endure to the end and face judgement in your flesh.

Change is not a one time thing for all so you do err.

 1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 
1Co 15:23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 
1Co 15:24  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

It might benefit you to do a word study on firstfruits. 

Edited May 22, 2022 by Cntrysner

[Cntrysner]

7 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You make to lie - for the One Who was born of God, possessing eternal life from the womb, is said - not once - to have died. His death is the central theme of the Bible and you deny it by your doctrine. Surely that alone should make you reconsider.

You need to tone it down, you have insinuated that others are fools, ignorant and poorly educated and it is not very becoming of one that professes to hold the truth in Christ.