Resurrection of the Just and the Unjust Happens At The Second Coming

[Sister]

14 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Let's just take one verse and look at it...those who are rewarded at the 7th Trumpet. This is in Rev. 11:18:

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And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great;

Ok.

 

14 hours ago, transmogrified said:

and then the one we want to focus on is the next phrase...

3) 'And the time of the dead that they should be judged...' 

Here John is revealing to us that the time of the dead that they should be judged will take place when the 7th trumpet sounds.

In order for THE DEAD to be judged, they must be first resurrected...so keep in mind, he is calling this THE TIME OF THE DEAD, that THEY (the dead) should be judged. 

Also keep in mind 'THE DEAD' does not just mean the righteous dead, or the wicked dead, but 'THE DEAD' means everyone who is dead will be resurrected, whether good or bad...

We are actually given the definition of who 'THE DEAD' is much earlier before the book of Revelation.  It's not complicated, it's simple and we can find it here;

1 Thessalonians 4:16   For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17   Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This is a special group of people here, not just anyone and everyone.

So to recap;

Revelation 11:18   And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

So because of 2Thess 4:17, the scriptures are opened up. The dead in Christ are raised first, so these are the first ones judged .... amongst this group only.  Those who know of Christ and serve him according to his gospel in the NT.

And if we had to back this up with further proof, we have hundreds of scripture to clarify, and here's just a few;

 John 5:39   Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
 

Who is given eternal life?  Those which testify of Jesus.  The OT saints cannot do this.  Never knew him.  Not even all the prophets knew everything about him.

 

Luke 10:24   For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

 

So how can many of these prophets testify of Jesus?

 

Galatians 3:24   Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Galatians 3:25   But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Galatians 3:26   For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

 

So the Law was not by faith, or by the spirit, because it was of the letter, and was carnal according to 'works'.  You broke one law, you broke them all.  And not only that, you were stoned or severely punished by man or by God for breaking the law.  The law was served out of fear and they had no choice, they had to obey.  Jesus came to fulfill the law by ending that one and bringing in a better way.  They didn't get to experience that.  Jesus came to free them from the curse of the law, and their last generations wanted to stay under the law, so they were not made free.

 

Galatians 4:19   My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

 

 

 

Romans 8:16   The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Romans 8:17   And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

 

The 1st resurrection are all those who have suffered with Christ and who will be glorified with him, and will become joint-heirs with Christ.  Christ, and his followers. Not joint-heirs with anyone and every one.  Because everything must be fulfilled in it's order.  God is very patient and not rushing things through - he's got forever.

 

So the 'time of the dead that they should be judged', are the 'Dead in Christ'.  All these dead in Christ will be 'judged' whether or not they will enter that resurrection.  They will be sifted as in who will come forth, and who will stay in the ground. 

 

1 John 4:14   And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

 

Edited June 6, 2022 by Sister
Added scripture Rev 11:18 and corrected grammar

[Sister]

11 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Here are a few scriptures showing the prophets in the Old Testament were his servants: : 

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1 Chron. 16:22 Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm.

 

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2 Kings 21:10 And the LORD spake by his servants the prophets, saying,

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Jer. 29:19 Because they have not hearkened to my words, saith the LORD, which I sent unto them by my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them; but ye would not hear, saith the LORD.

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Dan. 9:6 Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, which spake in thy name to our kings,

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Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

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Luke 1:70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

So the point with the above scriptures is that these are specifically stated to be resurrected and rewarded at the 7th Trumpet and not at a different time after the 7th trumpet sounds. 

No matter how many times I read the above scriptures, I cannot see that these scriptures are 'specifically' stating that they will be in the 1st resurrection.  I am not saying that they won't be, but that these scriptures don't state that and can't be used as proof.

The prophets were used as God's mouthpiece.  God filled them with his holy spirit so that they could give a message.  The prophets were good men, yes, devoted and loved God, but they didn't always fully understand what they were speaking.  Daniel is a good example of this, troubled in his spirit for not understanding, and when the explanation came, it was still vague.  John who penned the book of Revelation even found it hard to describe fighter planes etc.  These things hadn't even been invented yet, and they were behind the times.

Now compare that to where we are in this day and age.  We can see much more clearer now because of technology.  We are living in it.  We have all the prophecy's at our fingertips and can see much clearer how everything has taken shape.  So there is a last generation whom the Lamb has fed which has been given more clarity.

 

Edited June 6, 2022 by Sister

[Sister]

15 hours ago, transmogrified said:

These, and the saints who remained faithful to God were the natural branches who were not broken off during the entire Old Testament time. Even when Jesus came it does not say that every Old Testament believer was broken off, but rather that SOME of them were broken off.

Yes, it does say 'SOME' of the branches were broken off, and we know that started from the generation who saw Christ and rejected him until now.

 

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What must be acknowledged is the Old Testament believers and those who were not broken off when Christ came were the natural branches and were in Christ during that entire time.

Yes, but we have to look at the whole picture and understand it.

Christ is the vine.  He is 'The Word of God' who spoke to Israel in the past.  But the 'Word of God' was not yet... back then.... transformed into 'the Son of Man' who released Israel from the law to wash them in his blood through the new teachings/new covenant.  That old law doesn't produce the kind of fruit that is required for the resurrection, the fruits of the spirit. 

God did not cast off 'some' of those natural branches from the OT, until the 'the Son of Man' came.  The ones who rejected him were broken off, and the Vine, the Word of God, now the 'Son of Man' would stop feeding them. 

The old branches that 'remain' on the tree cannot produce fruit because those people are dead.  Only those branches that were grafted in can produce fruit because of Christ's teachings.  Christ's teachings is what gives life, and only Christ can give the holy spirit.  Without the holy spirit we cannot produce fruit.  The holy spirit was not given to the old branches.

So we have old branches not producing fruit, and grafted in branches producing fruit.

The old branches not broken off are going to be producing fruit during the thousand years.  They are still on the tree, and God has not cast them away.  He is giving them another opportunity to produce the kind of fruit that is required in another time that he has so wonderfully planned and put aside for this very purpose.

It's not so cut and dry, because we have to look at the bigger picture. 

Because the natural branches are not producing fruit now, they cannot be the 'firstfruits' of the resurrection. 

Only 'after' the gathering at the resurrection of the saints can the natural branches start producing fruit, and that fruit is going to be plentiful because Christ will be there guiding them and giving them the holy spirit which is needed to produce that fruit.

And God is true to his Word.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 6, 2022 by Sister

[Sister]

15 hours ago, transmogrified said:

It cannot just be said 'the Old Testament believers were not in Christ' and think the problem is solved. If the oil light on the dash is on, its because there is a problem. Disconnecting the oil light does not mean the engine is now ok...No. The oil light will go off when the engine gets the oil..saying they were not in Christ is just disconnecting the oil light while the problem still remains....

To be in Christ is a fundamental basic.  I thought everyone could understand what 'to be in Christ' means?  The OT saints were not in Christ and I am repeating myself over and over!  All were under sin.  It's so clear and dying in sin does not get one a place in the resurrection.  All the world was guilty before God.  How many different ways can this be said?

 

Romans 3:9   What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Romans 3:10   As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Romans 3:11   There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Romans 3:12   They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Romans 3:19   Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Romans 3:20   Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:21   But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Romans 3:22   Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 3:23   For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

  Romans 3:24   Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Romans 3:25   Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Romans 3:26   To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Romans 3:23   For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

That to me is so easy to understand.  I don't need to give a commentary for it is pretty self explanatory.

 

Romans 1:16   For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Salvation can only come through the gospel of Christ.  It has to be heard first.

 

[transmogrified]

11 hours ago, Sister said:

16 hours ago, transmogrified said:

So the point with the above scriptures is that these are specifically stated to be resurrected and rewarded at the 7th Trumpet and not at a different time after the 7th trumpet sounds. 

No matter how many times I read the above scriptures, I cannot see that these scriptures are 'specifically' stating that they will be in the 1st resurrection.

It is a reference  to Rev. 11:18 where it says it is the time of the dead that they should be judged and that he would give reward to HIS SERVANTS THE PROPHETS....

The quotations were showing some of the many scriptures showing the prophets of old were his servants...

So when it says his servants the prophets will be rewarded at the 7th trumpet, it means his servants the prophets will be rewarded at the 7th trumpet...The prophets of old are his servants the prophets...the scriptures themselves that say 'his servants the prophets' that I quoted from do not say 'his servants the prophets will be rewarded at the 7th trumpet and not after the 7th trumpet sounds..' 

Where I am quoting this from is Rev. 11:18-

'...and the time of the dead that they should be judged and that thou shouldest give reward to:

THY SERVANTS THE PROPHETS....

The above quotes were just saying that the old Testament prophets were his servants, thus they fulfill the criteria that these prophets will be rewarded at the 7th trumpet. 

So we are not looking at the quotations I gave and trying to find out where it specifically says they will be in the first resurrection...none of the scriptures I quoted ever said 'these servants his prophets will be resurrected at the 7th Trumpet..'.this is what was revealed to John in Rev. 11:18 where it says 'he will reward his servants the prophets at the 7th trumpet...'

In order for them to be rewarded, they have to be resurrected first...

11 hours ago, Sister said:

I am not saying that they won't be, but that these scriptures don't state that and can't be used as proof.

The dots we connect are Rev. 11:18 where it says he will reward his servants the prophets at the 7th Trumpet...The scriptures I quoted where it says 'his servants the prophets,' are not proof...it is Revelation 11:18 where it says he will reward them. I was only quoting those scriptures to verify that the old testament prophets were called 'his servants the prophets' in many places...

So when it says he will reward his servants the prophets at the 7th Trumpet it cannot be said 'God will not reward his servants the prophets at the 7th trumpet, when it says he will.'

So if I was to ask you...'Will God reward his servants the prophets at the 7th trumpet, what would the scriptural answer be? You would have to say, Yes, according to Rev. 11:18 God said he would reward his servants the prophets at the 7th Trumpet..

And if I was to ask you ...'Does God say the Old Testament prophets were his servants?' You would have to say, Yes, God said the Old Testament prophets were his servants.'

So if I was to ask you...'Will God reward his servant the prophets at the 7th Trumpet, you would have to say, Yes, God will reward his servants the prophets at the 7th Trumpet...

And If I was to ask you...'If God rewards his servants the prophets at the 7th trumpet, how can he raise them from the dead after the 7th trumpet if they were already resurrected at the 7th Trumpet? You would have to say, Those who are resurrected at the 7th Trumpet are the dead in Christ and they are raised in immortal bodies, so they could not be raised again after the 7th trumpet. 

And then the question would be..."If his servants the prophets are then raised into immortal bodies, and they are like the angels and never die, then how can they live to 100 years old and then die? You would have to say..'They cannot die because they were changed into immortal bodies and can never die.

So the question would be: Will God resurrect and reward his servants the prophets at the 7th trumpet?

Blessings to you- Gary

[Sister]

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

It is a reference  to Rev. 11:18 where it says it is the time of the dead that they should be judged and that he would give reward to HIS SERVANTS THE PROPHETS....

Ok!

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The quotations were showing some of the many scriptures showing the prophets of old were his servants...

Yes I know they were his servants, that is true.

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

So when it says his servants the prophets will be rewarded at the 7th trumpet, it means his servants the prophets will be rewarded at the 7th trumpet...

Ok, so first we know from 2thess 4, that the dead 'in Christ' will be raised first, then those who are alive will be picked up and 'together' they will meet the Lord in the air right?  In this order.  But the prophets are receiving their reward too?  And what is a prophets reward?  Is it the same reward as those 'in Christ'?  Are you sure?  Did the prophets of the OT go through Christ?  Really think about this please.

Look I know that the prophets are servants of the Lord;

2 Peter 1:21   For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

The prophets were chosen for this reason, and their words are more understood by us today, because we can see what's been fulfilled already and what hasn't.

but just before this verse we have this;

 2 Peter 1:16   For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

2 Peter 1:17   For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

2 Peter 1:18   And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

2 Peter 1:19   We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

2 Peter 1:20   Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

What did Peter mean when he said 'We have also a more sure word of prophecy?'

Does he mean it's more plain and easy to understand through the Gospels, and that we know his name now - Jesus, whereas they didn't even have that name before?  Just wondering how you see this?

 

 

[Sister]

10 hours ago, transmogrified said:

So when it says he will reward his servants the prophets at the 7th Trumpet it cannot be said 'God will not reward his servants the prophets at the 7th trumpet, when it says he will.'

 

Ok, can you think of any other time that this is not the case? 

 

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So if I was to ask you...'Will God reward his servants the prophets at the 7th trumpet, what would the scriptural answer be? You would have to say, Yes, according to Rev. 11:18 God said he would reward his servants the prophets at the 7th Trumpet..

I would have to say YES.  That's what the scriptures say, at the 7th trump.

So the 7th trump is the finale of this age, and also the start of the new age right?  All in the same day?

It's a time of judgment first... on Babylon (Rev 18), then the reward to the saints 'in Christ' with the resurrection,  and then another reward to the prophets who only prophesied of Christ, but didn't even know his name?

And lets not forget many of those prophets desired to see the things we saw, and hear the things we heard?  So they didn't quite get to see, or hear what we know. 

Do you think this is something worth considering?

Romans 10:9   That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10:10   For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 10:11   For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Romans 10:12   For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Romans 10:13   For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

What's his name?  Ask those OT saints? and ask the prophets?

Romans 10:14   How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Romans 10:15   And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

 

Edited June 6, 2022 by Sister

[Sister]

Hi Gary

I hope to get back to some of your other questions tomorrow.  Please remind me and give me a nudge if I forget to address anything important you have put forth as we continue, because often old things get lost as we move on to answering and bringing forth new information.

God bless.

[Uriah]

On 5/12/2022 at 12:19 AM, transmogrified said:

Following the time frame in Daniel it is plain to see what happens when the man of sin comes to his end and none will help. Daniel 11: 45

Dan 11 starts out outlining workings with the kings of Persia, Grecia and the king of the south, thought to be Egypt. I'd still like to know where in Dan 11 there is a transition to the end times, please.

[transmogrified]

20 hours ago, Sister said:

I hope to get back to some of your other questions tomorrow.  Please remind me and give me a nudge if I forget to address anything important you have put forth as we continue, because often old things get lost as we move on to answering and bringing forth new information.

God bless.

Hi Sister- I probably won't be able to get back with you for about a week or so...my work situation is taking all my time up, but will get back as soon as I can...Blessings to you much- Gary