Resurrection of the Just and the Unjust Happens At The Second Coming

[Sister]

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

 Saying they will be 'raised in the same manner Lazarus was raised' is not an explanation, but a statement.

Hi Gary

Yes it's my statement, giving an example of what happened in the past.  Lazarus would of died again.  You know this because you mentioned it earlier.  It's the same type of raising.  These remnants will die again.  I gave scripture to show they will live to a hundred years old.

 

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There were no scriptures given saying they would be raised to mortal bodies. The scripture saying he will 'open their graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel,' does not say he will raise them to mortal bodies.

There's no need to cherry pick scriptures.  You have to read the chapter for yourself from verse 1-14.  I gave that scripture to show the dead are coming out of their graves.  I gave other verses also to show Ezekiel was speaking of Israel.  This is not a normal resurrection according to the one we are waiting for.  This is something in-between.

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The fact that some in Israel have been dead for thousands of years is not proof they are raised to mortal bodies. Where is the scripture showing he will raise them in mortal bodies?

 Ezekiel 37:6   And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

If this is not being raised to a mortal body then I don't know what is.  They are raised 'flesh', not spirit.  It's something different.

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The fact that some in Israel have been dead for thousands of years is not proof they are raised to mortal bodies. Where is the scripture showing he will raise them in mortal bodies?

Ezekiel 37:6   And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

The fact that these bodies are so old proves that the Lord can do marvelous things according to his plan.  He can raise to spirit, or he can raise to flesh.

6 hours ago, transmogrified said:

In order to have someone raised from the dead after the resurrection of the wheat and tares, the sheep and the goats, and the good and bad fish, there must be some who were not resurrected at the Second Coming.

 

The wheat and the tares are only speaking of 'the harvest', (the reaping) not the resurrection. The tares are gathered on this side, to be put through the fire(tribulation/plagues), and the wheat are gathered on the other side, to be stored. The wheat can also be killed for refusing the Mark of the Beast, but still stored in the barn. The 7 angels will do the reaping.

The separation will be made when the tribulation starts.  We will see who receives what.  And this dividing line consists of only 'the living', not the dead.

Matthew 13:30   Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

 1 Corinthians 3:13   Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

  1 Corinthians 3:14   If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

  1 Corinthians 3:15   If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

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If all nations are before the Lord at the Second Coming, there would be no one to raise from the dead later. They were all raised at the second coming so there is no one left to raise later. This is why there is no scripture that says there is another resurrection for those that didn't get resurrected.

All those nations before the Lord are the 'living', not the 'dead'.

I gave you scripture showing the second resurrection/judgement.

 Revelation 20:5   But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

  Revelation 20:6   Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

 

[Sister]

7 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The above quote says the remnants (plural) of Israel. There is no remnants (plural) of Israel.

 

Yes, my bad.  Remnant.  Thank you.

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Here is what Isaiah said: "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant   (singular) shall be saved."

Yes, but I'm sure you know what I meant.

[Sister]

7 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The phrase 'Then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel,' does not mean Israel will be raised from the dead in mortal bodies after the resurrection of the saints. No one is raised from the dead after the resurrection of the saints in this scripture. Returning to their brethren does not mean they were raised from the dead in mortal bodies.

You will have to take that up with Ezekiel, and with Job, and with Jeremiah.

Job 19:26   And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

and with Rahel

 Jeremiah 31:15   Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.

  Jeremiah 31:16   Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.

  Jeremiah 31:17   And there is hope in thine end, saith the LORD, that thy children shall come again to their own border.
 

 

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What it does mean is the 144000 who are converted at the second coming will return to their brethren who were raised at the Second Coming with all the other saints. The 144000 are not resurrected so it does not mean there was another group that was raised from the dead after the resurrection of the saints.

The 144,000 are not converted at the 2nd coming, but  'follow the Lamb wheresoever he goes'  Do you know what this means?

True the 144,000 are not resurrected, because they are SEALED, and will be protected from the plagues.  They may face persecution, but their lives are spared, and the plagues touch them not.

Why?  Because they follow the Lamb wheresoever he goes. Out of the whole Christian land - in the end, of the last generation there are only 144,000 who serve Christ in spirit and in truth, and the Lamb has fed them.  This is not a big number compared to how many claim they are Christian.

 

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There are two groups...one is the 144000 who were converted but not raised from the dead, and the other group is their brethren who were in the resurrection of the saints at the Second Coming...these would be those who are to be resurrected at the 7th trumpet...namely...

1) His servants the prophets...

2) The saints...

3) Them that fear his name both small and great...

 

All who are in Christ are the brethren of the 144,000. 

1)  It does not state that the prophets will be in the 1st resurrection, but at that same time they receive their reward.  What is their reward?

 Isaiah 1:26   And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city.

They will be ruling over Israel in their flesh.  They will have the highest positions.  The resurrected saints will rule over them.  Israel will have their elders and prophets rule over them.  It will go smooth this time.  They will be heard.  They will be taught Christ's name.  They will confess his name, call out his name, and teach his name.  This is their reward, they are at the top now, not the bottom.  They will give out the Laws.  This is going to be well organised.

 Isaiah 30:20   And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity, and the water of affliction, yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a corner any more, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers:

 

[Sister]

7 hours ago, transmogrified said:

There are not two second comings that happen at the 7th trumpet. Jesus does not come down from heaven with all his saints and fight at Armageddon and then return to heaven with all his saints to later come down again and raise people from the dead who were already raised at the *alleged* first second coming. All came out of their graves, and all were before the Lord at the sheep and goat judgement...there is no one else to raise seeing all were there before the Lord.

There is only one second coming at the 7th trump, but different events happening at the same time.  The saints resurrected, the armies killed, the nations judged, fire and hailstones coming down, buildings destroyed, earthquakes, and the 'remnant' of Israel being gathered amongst the living and the dead brought back to witness their Messiah and the power given to him. 

Quite a bit happening at the 7th trump.

And where does it say Jesus goes back up to heaven with his saints?  He is coming down to rule the earth and his saints with him.  God has given him his own kingdom to reign over.  This is why he is the 'King of kings', because there will be many kings on the earth, and he is also called 'the Prince of princes', for there also will be many princes on the earth, and lastly he is called 'the Lord of lords', for there are many lords, and he is chief over them all on earth, not in heaven.  He's got a job to complete down here,not up there.  This was all planned from the beginning - and this is his time to be glorified and revered, ruling the nations with a rod of iron in justice and in truth.

 

 

[transmogrified]

15 hours ago, Sister said:

Hi Gary

You are lumping the 2 resurrections into the one.

John 5:24   Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

  John 5:25   Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

 

There are two types of resurrections shown in John 5...The first one is when one gets converted...he quickens us who were dead in sins...this is a spiritual resurrection from the dead...we were dead in sins, and now we are alive in Christ...this is not the future resurrection of the body...when we are converted we are still in these same bodies...this resurrection is the one you are quoting from in John 5:24-25 

The distinction is that he says 'the hour is coming AND NOW IS when the dead shall hear the voice of the son of God...the resurrection of our body is not NOW as it states in this text...he is talking about those who get converted in the future and those who get converted at this present time...that is why he says the hour is coming (future for those who are converted later) and now is (for those who were converted at that time).

But the future resurrection of the body is a completely different scenario...that takes place when all those in the graves come forth at the Second Coming. That is the distinction in John 5:28...He does not say the hour NOW IS when all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, but rather:

'The hour IS COMING (only in the future, not now) in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth...

I wasn't lumping them together in one...I was only focusing on the resurrection of the body when all come forth out of the graves...I only quoted John 5:28 -29 and was not dealing with the spiritual resurrection that takes place at conversion shown in  John 5:24-25.

Blessings to you- Gary

15 hours ago, Sister said:

You said before that the rest of the dead are those who will die during the millennium.

I did not say that the rest of the dead are those who will die during the millenium. What was said was that the armies of those killed at Armageddon at the Second Coming are the rest of the dead who do not live again until the 1000 years were finished.

Those who die during the 1000 years will be resurrected at the end of the 1000 years at the Great White Throne at the same time those that were killed at Armageddon will be resurrected...but the phrase 'the rest of the dead' only refers to those armies killed at Armageddon.

15 hours ago, Sister said:

There are going to be many who will not take part in the first resurrection.

Yes, of course...broad is the way and wide is the gate that leads to destruction and many there be which go in there at. 

15 hours ago, Sister said:

Only the blessed and holy will take part in the first resurrection. 

Yes, of course only those that belong to Christ will be in the first resurrection. 

15 hours ago, Sister said:

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished - they will be judged here, at the second judgement.

The phrase 'the rest of the dead' does not include those who die during the 1000 years. There will be a resurrection of those who die during the 1000 years at the Great White Throne after the 1000 years are finished.

The problem here is that this phrase 'the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were finished,' is misunderstood in light of other scriptures. It is not that it is not true, of course it is true, but what is misunderstood about it is not true.

Look at Daniel 12: 1-3, and then look at Daniel 12:7. 

Daniel 12:3 says what? It says 'multitudes that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake...some to life and some to condemnation.' What is said is that BOTH the righteous and the wicked are raised. What most people have asserted is that there must be 1000 years between the resurrection of the righteous and the resurrection of the wicked because they are leaning the false understanding of the phrase 'the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were finished.' 

If it was really true that all the wicked dead were not raised until the 1000 years were finished, the angel would not have been correct to tell Daniel that both would be resurrected at the same time, at the second coming.

Where does it say both the righteous and the wicked will be raised at the Second Coming?

Reading Daniel 11:45 we see that antichrist comes to his end and none shall help him...this places the time frame at the Second Coming, for this is when the beast is taken and the false prophet and they are cast into alive into the lake of fire.

What does it say happens 'AT THAT TIME?' Daniel 12:1-3 shows what happens when the antichrist comes to his end...in other words, what happens at the Second Coming. What does it say? It says..

AT THAT TIME

1) Michael stands up..

2) There will be a time of trouble...(great tribulation)...

3) Israel is delivered...

4) The resurrection of the just and the unjust...

So if it is true that ONLY the righteous are resurrected at the Second Coming and the wicked dead are not resurrected until the 1000 years are finished...it would not have said AT THAT TIME (That Jesus returns) both the just and the unjust would be resurrected.

The question was asked...'How long shall it be to the end of these wonders,' in Dan. 12:6:

"...and one said to the man clothed in linen, how long shall it be to the end of these wonders?'

Notice he did not say, 'how long shall it be to the BEGINNING of these wonders, but rather how long shall it be to the END (or the completion) of these wonders. 

What did the man in linen say? He said:

"It shall be for a time, times and an half, and when HE (antichrist) shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people (the saints) then ALL THESE THINGS SHALL BE FINISHED."

The beast makes war against the saints during the tribulation for 3.5 years, and then he comes to his end. How does he come to his end? He comes to his end because Jesus destroys him with the brightness of his coming...he prevails against the saints UNTIL the Ancient of Days comes...that is the end of the 3. 5 year persecution and killing of the saints.

So what does that have to do with anything? Ask yourself what were the wonders the angel was talking about? He was talking about the wonders that were just shown to Daniel...and one of those wonders included the resurrection of both the just and the unjust.

So the answer was given that ALL THESE THINGS (the resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked) would be FINISHED at the end of the 3.5 year reign of the beast. 

He did not say 'all these things would be finished at the end of the 3.5 year reign of the beast, EXCEPT the resurrection of the wicked, No. 'All these things meant all these things...in other words all the things just mentioned to Daniel (meaning both the resurrection of the righteous and the wicked)  would be finished at the Second Coming, which is also the end of the 3.5 year reign of the beast.

There is much more on this subject to go into...

Blessings to you- Gary

 

Edited June 17, 2022 by transmogrified

[transmogrified]

21 hours ago, Uriah said:

23 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Who is the HE in 12:7?

Antiochus.

Placing Antiochus in 11:45 would read:

"And Antiochus shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; ye Antiochus shall come to his end and none shall help him.."

Note: History says Antiochus died in 164 BC.

Placing Antiochus in 12:7 it would read:

"...and he held up his right hand and his left hand hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when Antiochus shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people all these things shall be finished."

Please provide evidence Antiochus scattered the power of the holy people for 3.5 years and that the following events have been completed:

1) Michael has stood up..

2) Israel was delivered..

3) The time of trouble has been completed..

4) The resurrection of the just and the unjust has taken place

If Antiochus was the man then at the end of the 3.5 years of him scattering the power of the holy people...all the things that were mentioned were to be finished. This does not mean this is the time when they BEGAN to be completed, but the angel said all these things SHALL BE FINISHED.

The word is 'kala in Hebrew #3615 meaning:

1) To accomplish...

2) End...

3) Be ended...

4) To be complete...

5) To be accomplished...

6) Be fulfilled...

7) Bring to an end...

8) Fulfill...

9) Bring to pass...

10) Be completed...

NLT..."all these things will have happened...

YLT..."finished are all these...

BBE..."...all these things will be ended...

There are other versions using the word 'shall' but the question was not 'How long shall it be to the time when these things will begin...?' but rather was :

"How long shall it be TO THE END of these things?' The man clothed in linen was the one who answered the question...and he did not answer him as to when these things would START but he gave him the answer as to how long it would be to the END of these things.

The definition for 'scatter' the power of the holy people is:

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nâphats, naw-fats'; a primitive root; to dash to pieces, or scatter:—be beaten in sunder, break (in pieces), broken, dash (in pieces), cause to be discharged, dispersed, be overspread, scatter.

Also the word means 'to destroy' or 'shatter'

NLT - When the shattering of the holy people has finally come to an end, all these things will have happened.”

NIV - When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”

NASB20 - and as soon as [fn]they finish smashing the [fn]power of the holy people, all these events will be completed

If Antiochus was the man who 'broke in pieces' or 'dashed to pieces,' or 'beat in sunder' the saints for 3.5 years then all these things were to be fulfilled by the end of that time period.  

The END of these things would mean:

1) Michael would have already stood up..

2) Israel would have already been delivered...

3) The time of trouble would have already ceased...

4) The resurrection of the just and the unjust would have already happened..

The above things are ALL said to be completed by the end of the 3.5 year period...one can assume Michael stood up at some time in the past, but we are not looking for ONE of these things to be assumed to have happened at some time in the past...the man in linen said ALL THESE THINGS WOULD BE FINISHED.

It is apparent ALL THESE THINGS ARE NOT FINISHED, so Antiochus is not the man in 12:7...the future Antichrist who wages war against the saints for 3.5 years DOES fit the bill as the resurrection of both the good and the bad will take place at the end of his reign..Israel DOES get delivered at the end of his reign...The time of trouble DOES come to an end at the Second Coming...and Michael DOES stand up at the Second Coming.

And it's not that we can obliviate the prophecy and say we know better that the resurrection of the wicked will not happen at the Second Coming, when the man in linen specifically said it would happen by the end of the 3.5 year reign. 

Blessings to you- Gary

 

 

Edited June 17, 2022 by transmogrified

[transmogrified]

10 hours ago, Sister said:

Ezekiel 37:6   And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

If this is not being raised to a mortal body then I don't know what is.  They are raised 'flesh', not spirit.  It's something different.

18 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The fact that some in Israel have been dead for thousands of years is not proof they are raised to mortal bodies. Where is the scripture showing he will raise them in mortal bodies?

Ezekiel 37:6   And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

The fact that these bodies are so old proves that the Lord can do marvelous things according to his plan.  He can raise to spirit, or he can raise to flesh.

God took upon himself a body of flesh and blood, as it says, 'and the word was made flesh.'

He was raised in an immortal body...but he had a flesh and bone body when he appeared to his disciples...he said touch me, for a spirit hath not flesh and bone as ye see me have. He ate food, he appeared and disappeared, and yet he had a body of flesh and bone that the disciples touched. 

The scripture does not use the phrase 'raised to spirit...' it says 'there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. Jesus still had the nail prints in his hands and feet and was tangible. There was flesh and bones...bones have muscles, or sinews attached to them to make them work...when he appeared to Abraham he was in this glorified body that he had before the world was. He sat down and ate beef and milk and bread with Abraham and so did the other two angels that were with him.

He had flesh and bones and yet he was not subject to death. The angels had similar bodies. The scripture says he will change our vile body that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body..The invisible God who is a spirit dwells inside that body as Paul said:

"For in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily...' And...
"God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself...' and..

"Great is the mystery of godliness, God was manifest IN the flesh..." and...

Jesus said 'My Father who sent me is IN me...'

Because Job said 'in my flesh I shall see God' does not mean Job will be raised in an corruptible body.'

Job also said "If a man die, will he live again? All the days of my appointed time WILL I WAIT TILL MY CHANGE COMES.'

What change? The change that Paul was talking about when he said we would all be changed in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, at the last trump. That is the change he is waiting for...he is not raised BEFORE that change comes...he WAITS till that change comes.

Look at what David said 'I will be satisfied WHEN I AWAKE IN THY LIKENESS.'  What did he say? He said he would awake 'IN HIS LIKENESS.' He awakes in a glorified body that is fashioned like unto his glorious body...he awakes at the 7th trumpet...this is when God rewards his servants the prophets...This is when David will awake in his likeness. If he awakes in his likeness, then he will be in an immortal body, not a corruptible body to later die again. 

Was David a prophet? Yes he was as it says:

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Acts 2:30 -Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 

It is indisputable that David was a prophet and it is indisputable that God will reward his servants the prophets at the 7th Trumpet.

It is indisputable that David will awake in his likeness...he does not wake in a corruptible body then die again and then awake in his likeness...NO. WHEN HE WAKES HE WILL BE IN HIS LIKENESS. 

Blessings to you- Gary

 

 

 

[Uriah]

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

Placing Antiochus in 11:45 would read:

Let's read what it actually says. In fact let's go right to "he." Since grade school we have learned that to identify a subject, one must look back through the previous sentences to where it originates. Its Antiochus, look at this easy to follow chart:https://www.angelfire.com/nt/theology/daniel-11.html

By sticking to the CONTEXT there is no need to shoe-horn-in contexts by stumbling over a phrase that triggers an assumption. for example, "time of the end". It clearly says that the king will accomplish the indignation. This includes stopping the daily sacrifices. this is referred to in ch 12 as  well.  Antiochus. Just use normal reading and don't be tripped up by a similar sounding phrase, the context clarifies it. 

[transmogrified]

49 minutes ago, Uriah said:

Antiochus, look at this easy to follow chart:https://www.angelfire.com/nt/theology/daniel-11.html

The chart listed only goes through Daniel 11...it said it was Antiochus in 11:45...you said it was Antiochus...I wrote Antiochus in the 'he' part of the text where it says 'and he (Antiochus) shall come to his end and none shall help him.' 

What did I do wrong? How were the events specified fulfilled in the time of Antiochus? 

 

[Sister]

20 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Here is another scripture showing the same thing:

Zech. 14:16- And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

These are not resurrected people...these are those who are left on the earth when Jesus comes and they repent and go up to learn of God's ways in Jerusalem.

These are the great multitude that no man could number who came out of every tribe kindred and nation...these were not resurrected people...they are those who are alive and repented at the Second Coming...Here is a brief list:

Yes, Zech 14:16 are the survivors of the nations.  Of course all nations shall serve him, we should know that.  That chapter gives lots of information.

The great multitude however, you have not understood it.  They are the resurrected 'in Christ' from all generations after Christ came preaching the kingdom. They knew Christ's name, they confessed Christ's name, they called out Christ's name.  Many generations here who died 'in Christ' are one big great multitude covering over 2000 years of worshipers, all having their own great tribulations according to their time, and overcoming whatever 'fire' they were put through... for Christ's sake making their robes white. 

You can only enter the resurrection if your robes are made white.  That's a requirement.  Cannot enter with dirty stains on your robes. Have to be properly dressed, no dirty marks, all sins have to removed (forgiven)

What you also failed to see here was a separation of the 144,000 being 'sealed' from this large multitude before the tribulation starts.

You see the large multitude have not been fed, well not fully fed because it says here;

Revelation 7:16   They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Revelation 7:17   For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

He's not speaking about feeding them with our food, but his food, spiritual food - the truth, and it's this truth that shall lead them to the holy spirit - living fountains of waters, and will receive all the deep things of God, not the watered down truth which the shepherds fed them with.  So this 'large multitude' of the resurrection shows that they were lacking in food, and went hungry and thirsty spiritually, and I guess each one will have had different measures of the spirit, but all this group need to be fed and corrected.

So if you cannot see the large multitude as the bulk of the resurrected saints, then your foundation has gone wrong somewhere, and it's throwing you further and further out. 

I am here to help you Gary, not condemn you or heap hot coals on your head.  You are hearing many things during our conversations that you havn't heard before, and it's challenging your foundation.  You are in fight mode. Attack, attack, attack, cherry picking scriptures, twisting my words here and there, pointing out things that are not so important and ignoring the main things, rejecting scriptures as if it was never said.  You are not hearing me when I clarify something to you.  I thought I could have some good dialogue with you because you seem have quite a bit of understanding in most area's, and patient and polite when you speak to the others.  You were not condescending like some of the others, and I thought you could get something out of this, but not now, maybe one day.  I am happy to keep answering, but it's coming to an end very soon because what I am sharing here are my pearls, my precious treasures that I keep close to my heart and am so grateful for, and to watch them being trampled on brings me no pleasure.