Resurrection of the Just and the Unjust Happens At The Second Coming

[transmogrified]

18 minutes ago, Sister said:

I am saying the great multitude of Rev 7 are those of the Resurrection.  Not converted nations in natural bodies.

The resurrected saints are priests and kings and are those who rule over the nations...the scriptures you point to are not describing saints ruling over the nations but pertain to the nations who are being taught about the Lord after their conversion at the Second Coming. 

If you are resurrected at the 7th Trumpet you are rewarded and granted the crown of righteousness which the Lord gives to all those who love his appearing. As Paul said:

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I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

 

Those that are in the first resurrection are BLESSED AND HOLY..they are not going to be going up to Jerusalem to be taught of the Lord...they will reign with Christ over those nations.

Who are the priests and kings? 

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And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

 

Those that are washed in the blood are the priests and kings...Those in the first resurrection are washed in the blood...those who are in the first resurrection belong to Christ...those in the first resurrection are blessed and holy...those who are in the first resurrection are the dead in Christ. 

Those who are redeemed will reign on the earth.. 

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thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

Those that are redeemed out of every kindred nation and tongue are those who reign on the earth.

Here is the criteria...

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It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

 

If you are a believer and take up your cross and deny yourself and suffer with Christ you will reign with him...if you don't you will not be trained later to do so...he will deny you before the Father. I had a friend who claimed to be following God and he shacked up with a girl later...he said 'IF God wants to cast me out then I guess he will...' Why was he guessing? There is no guessing about..he said If we deny him, he will deny us...

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But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

If we don't want that to happen here is what we are to do:

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And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

What happened to the unfaithful servant? Did he get further education later? No...it says:

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And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

What happens to the lukewarm? He said he would spue you out of his mouth..There is no  re-education program.

What did Paul say if we do not abide in faith? He said:

"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God...on them that fell severity...but toward thee goodness IF thou continue in his goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off...' There is no  re-education program.

And what did Paul say even about himself? He said I keep under my body and bring it into subjection, lest after I have preached to others I myself should be a castaway...' There is no  re-education program.

The thing is, you will not be in the resurrection of the just if you are not following God and doing his will...period. What did Paul say:

 

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

These people DO NOT GET IN...they don't get in and then get further training until they learn how they are supposed to follow God. NO. NO. NO. They do NOT inherit the kingdom of God...there is no 'rehab' for them... The people that are in the first resurrection have OVERCOME...they already are OVERCOMERS or they would not be there...Paul said what?

I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith...HENCEFORTH there is a crown of righteousness laid up for me...

You are creating a program for people that does not exist...there is no rehab...now is the time for rehab...you have a program for people you believe were in the resurrection and were somehow not worthy...NO. If they were in the resurrection of the just, the name itself shows they were already just...They are not going into rehab to be made just...THEY ARE ALREADY WORTHY. 

Here is the statement to the one who had 5 talents: "Well done thou good and faithful servant...enter into the joy of thy Lord...

Here is the statement he said to the one who had 2 : "Well done thou good and faithful servant...enter into the joy of thy Lord...

What did he say to the one who hid his talent? 'Thou wicked and slothful servant...Take therefore the talent from him and give it to him that hath ten talents...and cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.."

What happened to the rehab program? THERE IS NO REHAB PROGRAM...He was cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth...he was a WICKED servant...he didn't get retrained later. 

52 minutes ago, Sister said:

The shepherds he is angry at are the many who have taught false doctrine. 

Yes, and what did he say to false teachers...? He said he would they were even cut off who troubled the Galatian churches...Did he say God will rehab them later? No...he said:

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He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

What did he say to the Pharisees...If you believe not that I am he, you will die in your sins...

What did Paul say about false teachers?

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But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

And what did we just read about those who deny the Lord? It says God will deny them...

57 minutes ago, Sister said:

Many of the sheep have been led into error.  Error of doctrine. 

And what did we already look at? It says if any of you do err from the truth and one convert him...what does it say? It says he will save a soul from death and hide a multitude of sins...'

He did not say if any of you err from the truth God will train you later after the resurrection...NO NO NO...this is false doctrine itself!

59 minutes ago, Sister said:

It's clear, these saints will be given pure truth, and given the holy spirit, (the spirit of truth), the full truth, after their change, and their spirit will be perfected through that, and they will get brighter as they are taught I presume, gaining more wisdom.  The truth will be straightened out for them for the Lamb will feed them directly.

This is absolutely false..those that are teaching false doctrine and deny the Lord will not be given another chance to correct things...those that are in the resurrection of the just will be ruling over the nations...not in rehab....to him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne...sitting with him means ruling with him...not rehab. 

Why are they called JUST if they are actually UNJUST and need to be corrected?

Why does God say 'Well done thou good and faithful servant...if they actually did not do good and were not faithful..? No, if you are in the resurrection of the just, God says to you WELL DONE, GOOD AND FAITHFUL SERVANT...not 'you weren't faithful and you weren't good, but sign on here for my rehab program and we'll get you requalified. No. The sheep entered into the kingdom prepared for them...The reason they entered in was BECAUSE THEY WERE SHEEP, not because they were going to become sheep someday.

The goats were cast into everlasting fire BECAUSE THEY WERE GOATS. The sheep were those who died in Christ...the goats were those who died in sin...what they were at death is what put them in the category of either being just or unjust. 

Look at the analogy of the net...Did he gather fish and then later try to make the bad ones good? Of course not. He gathered fish of every kind...if there was a bad fish he was gathered in the net...if there was a good fish he was gathered in the net...and then what did he do? He draws in the net and SEPARATES THEM. He doesn't put them in rehab...he keeps the good and casts the bad away. 

Look at this verse:

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Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 

What else does it say about him that does righteousness? 

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If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

The scriptures you are claiming pertain to the resurrected saints is false...The resurrected saints were in the resurrection of the just because they were just, those who were in the resurrection of the unjust were in that resurrection because they were unjust. Those that go up from year to year are those who are alive at the time of the Second Coming..they are not getting a 'second chance...' they are still alive at that time and have the same opportunity everyone else has during their life to follow God or not. The resurrected saints do not need to be corrected...God has already deemed them worthy or they would not be there. If they were not worthy, they would be in the resurrection of damnation, just like the unfaithful servant. 

The unfaithful servant was not cast out because he failed to qualify in the rehab program..he failed BEFORE Jesus returned...The householder who gave them the talents went away on a long journey after he had issued the talents out...After a long time he came and reckoned with them...When did he reckon with them? When he came. And what was he dealing with them about? What they did in the rehab program? No...he was dealing with them about what they had been doing during the time he was gone and before he had returned.

As he said 'Behold I come quickly, and my reward is with me to give unto every man according as his deeds shall be...' Not, behold I come quickly and if your not quite up to par, don't worry, I have a rehab program for you.' No. It is the day of JUDGEMENT...not the day of rehab...

 

[Sister]

3 hours ago, transmogrified said:

I am saying there the resurrected saints are ruling over the nations...the nations are the ones who were converted at the Second Coming and are still in natural bodies serving God in the temple day and night...these are those that go up from year to year to Jerusalem to keep the feast of tabernacles and to learn God's ways. 

Ok, I see what you are saying. 

Revelation 7:15   Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

No, you are getting this one mixed up with;

Zechariah 14:16   And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

because;

Revelation 7:14   And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

If your robes have been made white in the blood of the Lamb, it mean's you have suffered persecution for Christ's sake.  This is a big honour.

The other survivors of the nations did not suffer for Christ's sake, but because of their own doings.  There is a big difference there. 

[Sister]

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

The resurrected saints are priests and kings and are those who rule over the nations...

Yes!

I havn't got to answering your other statements yet.....but whilst the iron is hot!

 

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the scriptures you point to are not describing saints ruling over the nations but pertain to the nations who are being taught about the Lord after their conversion at the Second Coming. 

 

 

No, the large multitude of Rev 7 are pertaining to the saints of the resurrection.  You say they must be the survivors of the nations because they are standing before the throne of God, in his temple.  You see this as a physical temple which is why you mentioned Zechariah 14:16.

The nations are not automatically converted at the 2nd coming, but have to learn truth first and go through the process.  They have to repent.  This is their second chance without all the chaos and noise of false doctrines to walk the straight path.

Gary, can you not see that the Christian land is in a mess?  Can you see there is not one straight teaching, but many different doctrines out there, all differing about what their version of the truth is?  There is only one truth, but many different interpretations taught.  Well the flocks have to be re-taught because they were not taught before.  Simple as that.  And as I said before, many are at different levels, and have different measures of the spirit.

 

[Sister]

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Those that are in the first resurrection are BLESSED AND HOLY..they are not going to be going up to Jerusalem to be taught of the Lord...they will reign with Christ over those nations.

 

Yes I agree with part of that.  What I don't agree with is that you say the great multitude of Rev 7 are the survivors of the nations.  I say they are the saints of the resurrection.  Both have to be taught however.  Those in the flesh, and those who are changed at the resurrection.  Different schools!  Look even those vessels of gold and silver will be taught more, but they are at a higher level, with more wisdom, so will be taught higher things, than the rest.  All have to learn in stages.  Whatever we are lacking now, we will receive in the kingdom.  What we have already gained now will be an asset to us.  Does this make sense?

 

[Sister]

Hi Gary

I can't find that quote you made about Job right now, but you made a good point, and I will go over Job again and consider it.  He made two correct statements there, but he was also asking God a lot of questions during that vexation of his spirit.

[Uriah]

16 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The quote from Matthew Henry's commentary does not address how the events specified in Dan. 12:1-3 were fulfilled in the time of Antiochus. 

Of course not. As I said previously, Dan 12 1-3 are a departure to a ultimate end. Then it says, "but you Daniel.." signifying a moving on (ack) to another subject...another time!

16 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The question was "If Antiochus was the man in 12:7, then all these things were to be finished at by the end of his 3.5 year reign

Pretty much coincides with the conflict against the Jews, as to the daily sacrifices being restored.

16 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The question was not about 1290 days..it was that the man in linen said all the things listed would be fulfilled by the end of th 3.5 year reign of Antiochus

You are forcing it to say that. Will you do the same with some selected verses in Revelation?

[transmogrified]

11 hours ago, Sister said:

14 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Those that are in the first resurrection are BLESSED AND HOLY..they are not going to be going up to Jerusalem to be taught of the Lord...they will reign with Christ over those nations.

 

Yes I agree with part of that. 

If they are blessed and holy...then they don't need further training to become holy...being holy was how they got into the resurrection of the just...Does it not say 'Be ye holy, for I am holy? That is the definition of a saint...he is holy.

And what did God say to the believers in Peter...? He said what? He said

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'But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people.

..and what did he say about us? 

We were once not a people but now we are the people of God. And who is that comes with him when he comes? They that are with him are:

1) Called...

2) Chosen...

3) Faithful

When did they get called? After the resurrection? No. of course not. When were they chosen? After the resurrection? No. Of course not..they were chosen before the foundation of the world...And when were they faithful? Did they learn how to be faithful after the resurrection? No. of course not...being called and chosen and faithful was how they were counted worthy to obtain that world and to be in the first resurrection.

What you are proposing is that they need further training, when God had already accepted them..they don't need further training..they were ALREADY holy, chosen, faithful and called BEFORE the resurrection took place...

And what does it say about the bride? It says she has made herself ready. Did she become ready after she had undergone further training after the marriage? Of course not. She was ready and clothed in fine linen clean and white BEFORE she got to the marriage...And what is the fine linen...? It is the righteousness of the saints.

Look at 1 John -"Be not deceived...' (what he saying to not be deceived about? About this next statement...)

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'He that doeth righteousness is righteous even as he is righteous."

Is God righteous? Of course. If we do righteousness then it says we are righteous even as he is righteous...God doesn't need any improvement...and when we do righteousness we are righteous just like God, so none of those in the first resurrection need any rehab so they can learn how to be righteous.

How do we get into the resurrection of the just? By being just. How do the wicked get into the resurrection of the unjust? By being unjust. You can't be just and also be not just. Those in the first resurrection are 

 

1) Holy...

2) Just...

3) Righteous...

4) Called...

5) Chosen...

6) Faithful...

And then you are proposing a rehab program to make them...

1) Holy...

2) Just..

3) Righteous..

4) Faithful...

If they weren't holy, just, righteous and faithful they would not have been in the resurrection of the just...the very name 'resurrection of the just' betrays the whole concept...if they weren't already just, they would have been in the resurrection of the unjust...

Those that are coming with Christ are FAITHFUL...they were already faithful before they got to the earth with Christ...God is not going to take them and train them to be faithful because they weren't faithful before...NO. THEY WERE ALREADY FAITHFUL or they wouldn't be coming with Christ.

And when she comes she is already arrayed in fine linen...she already had the righteousness of the saints...he wasn't coming down to the earth so could learn to be righteous...SHE WAS ALREADY RIGHTEOUS BEFORE SHE GOT HERE.

12 hours ago, Sister said:

Both have to be taught however. 

The resurrected saints are not going up to Jerusalem to keep the feast of tabernacles and to learn war no more...the resurrected saints are not beating their spears into plowshares and their swords into pruning hooks..these are the nations who are converted. The resurrected saints are RULING THESE NATIONS..they are not in training...they are RULING over the nations. How long do they rule over the nations?  One Thousand years:

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Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

They begin reigning over the nations from the first day of the 1000 years to the last day of the 1000 years...

What did Daniel say about the time frame?

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Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

When did the saints possess the kingdom? After they had graduated from rehab school? NO. When the Ancient of days came:

1) Judgment was given to the saints..

2) The time came that the saints possessed the kingdom..

When did the saints possess the kingdom? AT THE SECOND COMING

When was judgment given to the saints? AT THE SECOND COMING

How long did they reign with Christ? THE ENTIRE 1000 YEARS.

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And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

When do all dominions serve and obey him? When he comes...

When was the kingdom given to the saints of the most high? When he came...

How long does Jesus rule the nations? For 1000 years...

How long do the saints rule with him? For 1000 years...

They rule and reign with Christ for a 1000 years. They are Kings and Priests during the entire time...they are not GOING to be Kings and Priests after going to school...NO..It says God has made them KINGS AND PRIESTS and they rule in that capacity for the entire 1000 years.

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And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

They received this power at the Second Coming...they did not go to school to learn it...it says 'Judgment was given to the saints of the most high...' WHEN? Sometime after the second coming when  they graduated from Priest and King school? No. They were given Judgment AT THE SECOND COMING AND RULED AS KINGS AND PRIESTS THE ENTIRE 1000 YEARS.

There are two witnesses of this event:

Dan. 7:22 

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Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Rev. 20:4

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And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

WHO does it say received judgment? It says 'judgement was given to THE SAINTS OF THE MOST HIGH.' It did not say judgment was given to SOME of the saints of the most high, and to the rest of the saints after they graduated from King and Priest school. NO. No one went to King and Priest school...They were GIVEN judgment supernaturally by God Almighty and they became KINGS AND PRIESTS at the Second Coming.

This judgment was given to ALL THE SAINTS OF THE MOST HIGH...there was no one given priority or seniority over any one else...No. They ALL became KINGS AND PRIESTS UNTO GOD.

So when John saw thrones and it says 'they' sat upon them' who is the 'they?' Of course those who sat upon these thrones were the ones Daniel said they were...they were the SAINTS OF THE MOST HIGH GOD.

So where were the saints of the most high God? They were sitting on thrones...not going up to Jerusalem to learn about God. Does this say 'some of the saints were Kings and Priests? No it does not...it was given to ALL THE SAINTS.

So when the nations are gathered before the throne who is with him in his throne? It is all the saints...they are all on thrones ruling and reigning with Christ...

IF ALL THE SAINTS ARE ON THRONES, THEN THEY ARE NOT ALSO BEFORE THE THRONE LEARNING ABOUT GOD.

So what happens is that even though God has said these saints are given judgment and they are also Kings and Priests, and they are also:

1) Faithful...

2) Holy...

3) Sanctified...

4) Righteous..

5) Just...

6) Sanctified...

7) Justified...

18 hours ago, Sister said:

So because the flocks, and there are many from all sorts of denominations have depended on the shepherds to feed them truth, they accepted whatever they were taught, but the sheep didn't realise that they were taught error and false doctrine.  They blindly trusted these shepherds. 

If the blind lead the blind, they both fall into the ditch...But it is not just blind leaders...it is also the blind people who follow them. What did Jesus say to the Pharisees?

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But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

said you don't hear my voice because you are not of my sheep...my sheep hear my voice 

 

Why does it say they did not believe? Because they were not of his sheep...and what did Jesus say his sheep would do? It says:

1) He knows them..

2) They know him..

3) They hear his voice...

And what else does it say about his sheep?

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And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

 

1) They know his voice...

2) They know not the voice of strangers..

3) They do not follow strangers..

4) They flee from the voice of strangers....

So what if someone follows the voice of strangers? That means they were not his sheep.

What if someone does not know his voice? That means they were not his sheep.

What if someone doesn't hear his voice? That means they were not his sheep.

These are not sheep so they are not in the resurrection of the just...only his sheep are in the resurrection of the just...so if they are not in that resurrection they are in the other resurrection. But remember if they are a sheep, that means they hear his voice..it means they are following him...it means they are fleeing the voice of strangers...it means God knows them and it means they know God...so what am I getting at?

There is nothing to correct if they are already following his voice...they already know God and God knows them...they are already fleeing the voice of strangers...they are already following him....

What you are doing is putting people who are not just into the resurrection of the just and then trying to patch them up later...THIS IS NOT THE PROTOCOL. If they were not JUST, then they were not in the resurrection of the just. If they were just they don't need to be corrected...if they were already righteous they don't need to be made righteous..if they were already faithful they don't need further training on how to faithful..If they already were following God, they don't need training on how to follow God.

This is why so many people are following so many different things...they are not all his sheep or they would be all following the same thing...as Paul said..."That ye all speak the same thing and that there be no divisions among you...' 

Who is going  up to keep the feast of tabernacles? The nations which are left of those who came against Jerusalem...the nations who came against Jerusalem are not the saints...the nations who fought at Jerusalem were fighting against the saints that came down with Jesus from heaven.

And what else does it say about these nations?

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And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

Resurrected saints do not have families...resurrected saints do not marry or have babies..but this is saying those that come up to Jerusalem are the families of the earth...these are not resurrected saints.

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And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

The resurrected saints are not in the 'family of Egypt...' those in the resurrection do not marry nor are they given in marriage so there are no families of resurrected saints. Nor are the resurrected saints called 'the heathen'...they are Kings and Priests who are RULING over these 'families of the earth,' and over these 'heathen,' and over the 'family of Egypt.' 

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This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

The reason the resurrected saints are nowhere mentioned coming up to keep the feast of tabernacles is because they are ruling over these nations...they are not the ones coming up...the punishment for not coming up was upon ALL THE NATIONS, not upon the resurrected saints who did not come up...there was no resurrected saints who came up for they were ruling over these nations as priests and kings...they are not these nations.

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After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

These stood before the throne...the resurrected saints are sitting WITH Jesus in his throne...they are not before the throne...they are ruling over those who are before the throne.

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And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

They are worshipping the God who sat upon the throne...the throne is here on the earth...you cannot quote scriptures that God's throne is in heaven when the time context is that he has descended from heaven and is now ruling on his throne on the earth.

What are those nations doing who come up to Jerusalem? Is says they come up to WORSHIP the Lord...what are these doing...they are WORSHIPPING the Lord, saying 'Salvation to our God, which sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb...'

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Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

 

Yes, it can be said these are being fed and led unto fountains of living waters...but what does it say about who will be healed during this time? Is it he resurrected saints? No it is not...it says:

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In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

The nations are those who being healed, not the resurrected saints.

The scriptures are disannulled by making the resurrected saints the ones who are getting corrected after the Second Coming. They would not have been in the resurrection of the just if they didn't receive correction.

13 hours ago, Sister said:

Both have to be taught however.  Those in the flesh, and those who are changed at the resurrection.  Different schools! 

This is the problem..you are assuming the saints were not up to his standards when the very criteria to be in the resurrection means you have to be up to his standards...if they aren't up to his standards they aren't in the resurrection of the just and will be in the resurrection of the unjust...There is no one left to further train...the righteous were already righteous...the wicked were already wicked...no one can go down to the lake of fire and offer a rehab program for them...and no one who gets in the resurrection of the just is unjust...to be in the resurrection of the just you have to be his sheep...we have already read the definition of who his sheep are...the only ones getting healed during the 1000 years are those who are left of the nations and their families as they live and die during the 1000 years...

All the saints are on thrones ruling...they are not in rehab..they are ruling over those nations who are getting educated ...and they get washed in the blood of the lamb at the Second Coming...they are learning of his ways AFTER conversion...it is not a second chance for them...they have the same opportunity during their life to accept or reject Jesus as we do..It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment...not the rehab...

Blessings to you- Gary

 

[transmogrified]

10 hours ago, Uriah said:

Of course not. As I said previously, Dan 12 1-3 are a departure to a ultimate end. Then it says, "but you Daniel.." signifying a moving on (ack) to another subject...another time!

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But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

If the phrase, But thou O Daniel is the key phrase meaning from that point on the subject was changed to another time...then all of the events prior to the angel saying 'But thou O Daniel,'  were included in the time frame when the man in 11:45 came to his end...For example:

11:45 'But he shall come to his end and none shall help him...

12:1 'At that time shall...

1) Michael stand up..

2) There will be a time of trouble...

3) Israel will be delivered..

4) The resurrection of the just and unjust takes place...

NOW in verse 4 he says 'But thou O Daniel..' What does that mean? According to what you said, the SUBJECT CHANGES and goes to ANOTHER TIME...What does that mean?

It means WHEN the man (allegedly Antiochus) came to his end in 11:45 then ALL the following events were STILL in this SAME TIME FRAME...according to what you said the time and subject changes when the words 'But thou O Daniel' are spoken. They are not spoken until verse 4...Meaning the time the man comes to his end in 11:45 is the same time frame as when Michael stands up...it means the time frame when the man comes to his end in 11:45 is the same time frame as when there is a time of trouble...it means that the time frame when the man comes to his end in 11:45 is the same time frame as when Israel is delivered...it means the time frame when the man comes to his end in 11:45 is the same time frame as when the resurrection of the just and unjust are to occur.

According to what was put forth ALL THE ABOVE EVENTS WERE IN THIS SAME TIME FRAME UNTIL VS. 4. 

According to what was put forth THE TIME AND SUBJECT DOES NOT CHANGE UNTIL VERSE 4. 

All the events from 11:45 until verse 4 did not happen when the Antiochus came to his end. 

This last part is an edit to what I just said. I think I misunderstood what you were saying. I was focusing on verse 4 thinking you said that you meant the words 'But thou O Daniel' was the phrase denoting a change in the time frame from what said from 11:45 until 12:3. I forgot your other reason for saying 12:1-3 were in a different time was because of the wording of 'at that time.' 

Although it was never shown in any text that there was a departure in the time frame by adding the word 'that' to 'and at that time that,' it was still maintained this was a legitimate translation but it wasn't.

The phrase 'at that time' still links the time that the man comes to his end in 11:45 to the rest of 12. Saying there is another word 'that' in the text does not mean there is another word 'that' in the text. There is not another word in the text and it was never confirmed to be the case. Adding another word in this case changes the meaning, so it is not needed for clarity and has not been shown to exist in any translation or in any Hebrew text. 

The time frame of when the man comes to his end in 11:45 is still the same time frame the other events were to be completed...but they weren't so saying the words 'But thou O Daniel,' doesn't mean there is a time change any more than it is justified to add another word 'that' to 12:1.  

Saying the phrase 'But thou O Daniel,' means the time frame is changed is complete nonsense. 

The text means what it says without any additions or private interpretations thinking that the phrase 'But thou O Daniel' means the time frame changes. It does not change...he is still talking about the events described in 12:1-3 when the angel asked 'when shall be the end of these wonders...' 

Saying 12:1-3 are in a different time frame does not make it so..there is no proof...only allegations there should have been another word added in 12:1 which was never in the text, and imposing a private interpretation to the phrase 'But thou O Daniel...' 

 

Blessings to you- Gary 

Edited June 20, 2022 by transmogrified

[transmogrified]

18 hours ago, Sister said:

I can't find that quote you made about Job right now, but you made a good point, and I will go over Job again and consider it.  He made two correct statements there, but he was also asking God a lot of questions during that vexation of his spirit.

It might have been about

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'all the days of my appointed time will I wait until my change comes...Job 14:14

Or it was Job 19:25-27

Quote

 

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

 

 

[Sister]

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

If they are blessed and holy...then they don't need further training to become holy...being holy was how they got into the resurrection of the just...Does it not say 'Be ye holy, for I am holy? That is the definition of a saint...he is holy.

Hi Gary

The saints of the resurrection have been 'forgiven'.  Their robes made white in the blood of the Lamb.  Their sins blotted out.  They overcame in the end, because of 'faith'.  All these are not the 'wicked' but gave up something that is precious to the Lord -  passing a test, whatever test they were put through to wash their robes white, and suffered for Christ's name, for righteousness sake, which got them through and received 'mercy'.

1 Peter 3:17   For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

.and what did he say about us? 

We were once not a people but now we are the people of God. And who is that comes with him when he comes? They that are with him are:

1) Called...

2) Chosen...

3) Faithful

When did they get called? After the resurrection? No. of course not. When were they chosen? After the resurrection? No. Of course not..they were chosen before the foundation of the world...And when were they faithful? Did they learn how to be faithful after the resurrection? No. of course not...being called and chosen and faithful was how they were counted worthy to obtain that world and to be in the first resurrection.

 1 Peter 2:7   Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

  1 Peter 2:8   And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

  1 Peter 2:9   But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

  1 Peter 2:10   Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

They now obtain 'mercy'.  Is mercy deserved, or is it a gift?

To stumble at the Word doesn't make you a wicked person.  Many would of traveled that hard road to the best of their ability, but stumbled at the word - receiving error - because of the oppressor, placing the wrong type of shepherds before them.  Many yearn for truth, but instead are taught lies.  God knows all this.  And this is a type of disobedience on their behalf, not searching the truth for themselves, not going through the Word of God directly, but going through man, and trusting man to give truth.  Not checking things out to see if they are so.  Allowing themselves to be deceived in doctrine.  Denying the scriptures in front of them.  Being drunk on the wrong wine.  So many will be sifted, and brought to righteousness and put through a a great test to make their robes white - to blot out all their sins.  The Lord will seek out his sheep and bring them back before they die, and he knows his sheep, all the different vessels - many are rejected also.

 Jeremiah 50:6   My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.