Is there anything WRITTEN stating 'FLESH' rises or will be raised at any time? (besides Christ's, of course)

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

The attack against resurrection is one of the great tactics of Satan to nullify Christians (i) building the Church, and (ii) having an intimate walk with Jesus. NO RESURRECTION - NO BODY! NO BODY - NO HOUSE FOR GOD AND NO BRIDE FOR CHRIST!

I BELIEVE THE 'SAVED' ARE BEING RESURRECTED EVERY DAY.  EVERY SINGLE DAY.  AND HAVE BEEN EVERY SINGLE DAY EVER SINCE THE DAY OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR, 

JESUS CHRIST RESURRECTED.  

DO YOU BELIEVE IN THE RESURRECTION TAKING PLACE TODAY AND EVERYDAY?   

OR DO YOU DENY THERE ARE RESURRECTIONS CURRENTLY TAKING PLACE?




BECAUSE I ALSO BELIEVE THAT SATAN ATTACKS THE WORK OF CHRIST ON THE CROSS.  I BELIEVE SATAN DOESN'T WANT ANYONE TO BELIEVE IN THE POWER OF THE PRECIOUS BLOOD OF THE LAMB SLAIN TO CLEANSE US OF SIN.  I BELIEVE SATAN DOESN'T WANT ANYONE TO KNOW THE PENALTY WAS PAID, THE RANSOM GIVEN, THE CHILDREN OF GOD REDEEMED, THE RELEASE OF THE CAPTIVES ACCOMPLISHED.  THOSE WHO HAD BEEN HELD PRISONERS, IN BONDAGE TO DEATH WERE SET FREE AND TO PROVE IT THE GRAVES WERE OPENED AND THE SAINTS WERE SEEN.  



Could you IMAGINE believing that Satan was more POWERFUL THAN CHRIST?  LIKE DEATH COULD CONTINUE TO REIGN AFTER HE HAD PAID THE PRICE?  

1Corinthians 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

1Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

1Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

NOT believing that Christ's work would be GOOD ENOUGH to make an immediate change,  but instead would have to await His return to take effect is like believing GOD would ever be OK with leaving fellow soldiers behind.    

[Who me]

8 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Not according to what is written. WHAT IS WRITTEN IS we have 2 bodies.  The first ones DEATH quickens the second one
 

1Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

 

As you say we will be changed:-

 

0 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[h]

[AdHoc]

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 

I have NO PROBLEM WITH RESURRECTION, just those who say there ISN'T ONE CURRENTLY.  Just those who don't think Christ defeated death for anyone but Himself.  WHAT WOULD BE THE POINT OF THAT?




JESUS ABSOLUTELY DOES DENY THAT A MANS BODY WILL BE RESURRECTED

Mark 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

THAT THERE CURRENTLY IS A RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD IS ALSO WRITTEN IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS

Mark 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

NOTICE IT DOES NOT SAY that the WILL BE RISING, but that they rise.  ONLY MAN attaches a 'last day' to it, NOT THE WORDS OF GOD.
 

My esteemed sister. You contradict scripture and yourself. You write that;  "Jesus absolutely does deny that a man's body will be resurrected" in Capital bold red for emphasis. Then you quote, as proof, Mark 12:25, which says;

"For when they rise from the dead ..."

That the BODY is meant is shown throughout scripture because only the BODY is mortal (Rom.6:12, 8:11, 1st Cor.15:53-54, 2nd Cor.4:11, 5:4)

I suggest you take a step back and ask yourself why this glorious matter of the human body, which returns to the elements at death, but is miraculously raised alive again by God's Spirit, is a stumbling block to you. Man is made of three parts BODY, soul and spirit (Gen.2:7, 1st Thess.5:23). The spirit cannot die, and the death of the soul is not cessation of consciousness, but perdition. Only the BODY ceases to renew itself and rots to the elements. God, Whose ENEMY is death, defeats His ENEMY, and men are raised from the dust (Dan.12:2). 2nd Corinthians Chapter 5 shows us that a dead man is NAKED, and you cannot appear NAKED before God. Thus it speaks of "being CLOTHED" with our BODIES. It says that we groan in this corrupt BODY, but that death is unnatural and we groan in DEATH too. The solution is RESURRECTION.

 

There is no secret spiritual resurrection for the dead. A dead man rots in his final resting place UNTIL Christ raises him BODILY. In EVERY CASE of resurrection in the Bible, the person returned in his/her original body. The Old Testament saints who were raised "after" Jesus in Matthew, were SEEN and RECOGNIZED by the inhabitants of Jerusalem. The people raised by Elijah, Elisha, Jesus, Peter and Paul ALL retained their body. This TIME, for the Christian, is "WHEN HE COMES" (1st Cor.15:23). The Holy Spirit is the recoverer of the body, thus rendering it a "spiritual body" - NOT because it is spirit, but because it has its ORIGIN in the Spirit.

[AdHoc]

14 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

1Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

NOT believing that Christ's work would be GOOD ENOUGH to make an immediate change,  but instead would have to await His return to take effect is like believing GOD would ever be OK with leaving fellow soldiers behind. 

Your sentiments are noted and appreciated. Christ's efficacy is wonderful and all-encompassing. But its APPLICATION must be discerned from scripture - not our feelings. Just take a look at the above quote you made. 1st Corinthians 15 makes Christ the "firstfruits" of those who are dead. That immediately implies that there is another, and later part of the harvest. The word "first" introduces at least the "second" and/or "the rest". And the verse you quoted, verse 23 say; "AFTERWARD" and "AT HIS COMING".

But this is not all. "AT HIS COMING" is ONLY the resurrection of "THOSE WHO ARE HIS". That is, Christian and Jew. The Nations must wait. The "REST of the dead" are only released from Hades after another 1,000 years. And what is more is that "at His coming" a massive slaughter takes place at Armageddon, which adds to Hades. Then, during the Millennium, some men will take a chance and be caught. The rule of the rod of iron will administer the death penalty to murderers, child molesters and blasphemers, so MORE will be added to Hades. And then come the mother of all battles at HammonGog where the slaughter of Magog's army will fill Hades with the souls of the dead.

But God is a God of order, and death is disorder. It is NOT the natural state. So Christ, empowered to be the "Life-giving Spirit", will call - and "ALL in the graves" will hear Him. They "STAND" (Rev.20:12) as Hades has "given UP" her dead. And Lo ... that which 1st Corinthians 15:22 predicted comes to pass - ALL MEN ARE RAISED. And it is patently true that the scheme of things after that is that "there is no more death" (Rev.21:4).

Resurrection is for those in GRAVES. And the contents of GRAVES is BODIES.

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

My esteemed sister. You contradict scripture and yourself. You write that;  "Jesus absolutely does deny that a man's body will be resurrected" in Capital bold red for emphasis. Then you quote, as proof, Mark 12:25, which says;

"For when they rise from the dead ..."

That the BODY is meant is shown throughout scripture because only the BODY is mortal (Rom.6:12, 8:11, 1st Cor.15:53-54, 2nd Cor.4:11, 5:4)

I suggest you take a step back and ask yourself why this glorious matter of the human body, which returns to the elements at death, but is miraculously raised alive again by God's Spirit, is a stumbling block to you. Man is made of three parts BODY, soul and spirit (Gen.2:7, 1st Thess.5:23). The spirit cannot die, and the death of the soul is not cessation of consciousness, but perdition. Only the BODY ceases to renew itself and rots to the elements. God, Whose ENEMY is death, defeats His ENEMY, and men are raised from the dust (Dan.12:2). 2nd Corinthians Chapter 5 shows us that a dead man is NAKED, and you cannot appear NAKED before God. Thus it speaks of "being CLOTHED" with our BODIES. It says that we groan in this corrupt BODY, but that death is unnatural and we groan in DEATH too. The solution is RESURRECTION.

 

There is no secret spiritual resurrection for the dead. A dead man rots in his final resting place UNTIL Christ raises him BODILY. In EVERY CASE of resurrection in the Bible, the person returned in his/her original body. The Old Testament saints who were raised "after" Jesus in Matthew, were SEEN and RECOGNIZED by the inhabitants of Jerusalem. The people raised by Elijah, Elisha, Jesus, Peter and Paul ALL retained their body. This TIME, for the Christian, is "WHEN HE COMES" (1st Cor.15:23). The Holy Spirit is the recoverer of the body, thus rendering it a "spiritual body" - NOT because it is spirit, but because it has its ORIGIN in the Spirit.

YOU SAY   "this glorious matter of the human body, which returns to the elements at death, but is miraculously raised alive again by God's Spirit, Thus it speaks of "being CLOTHED" with our BODIES".


1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest NOT that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:


2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 Corinthians 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

2 Corinthians 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

"There is no secret spiritual resurrection for the dead.  A dead man rots in his final resting place UNTIL Christ raises him BODILY"
 

1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

"The Old Testament saints who were raised "after" Jesus in Matthew, were SEEN and RECOGNIZED by the inhabitants of Jerusalem".  
 

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

 

 1718. emphanizó ►
Strong's Concordance
emphanizó: to exhibit, appear (in person), to declare
Original Word: ἐμφανίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: emphanizó
Phonetic Spelling: (em-fan-id'-zo)
Definition: to exhibit, appear (in person), to declare
Usage: I make visible (manifest); hence: I report (inform) against; pass: I appear before.
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from emphanés
Definition
to exhibit, appear (in person), to declare
NASB Translation
appear (1), appeared (1), brought charges (3), disclose (2), make...clear (1), notified (1), notify (1).

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1718: ἐμφανίζω

ἐμφανίζω (see ἐν, III. 3); future ἐμφανίσω (Buttmann, 37 (32)); 1 aorist ἐνεφανισα; 1 aorist passive ἐνεφανίσθην; from Xenophon, and Plato down; (ἐμφανής);
1. to manifest, exhibit to view: ἑαυτόν τίνι, properly, to present oneself to the sight of another, manifest oneself to (Exodus 33:13), John 14:22; metaphorically of Christ giving evidence by the action of the Holy Spirit on the souls of the disciples that he is alive in heaven, John 14:21. Passive to Show oneself, come to view, appear, be manifest: τίνι (of spectres, Wis. 17:4; αὐτοῖς Θεούς ἐμφανίζεσθαι λέγοντες, Diag. Laërtius prooem. 7; so of God, Josephus, Antiquities 1, 13, 1), Matthew 27:53; τῷ προσώπῳ τοῦ Θεοῦ, of Christ appearing before God in heaven, Hebrews 9:24; (of God imparting to souls the knowledge of himself, Wis. 1:2; Theophilus of Antioch ad Autol. 1, 2, 4).

"The people raised by Elijah, Elisha, Jesus, Peter and Paul ALL retained their body"

Yes they did retain their earthly bodies THEN, and we know this because the there is only 'a bare grain' from 'the earth body' that becomes a part of the spiritual body. 




"This TIME, for the Christian, is "WHEN HE COMES" (1st Cor.15:23)


Each however in the own order; firstfruit Christ then those of Christ at the coming of Him

5001. tagma ►
Strong's Concordance
tagma: that which has been arranged in order, spec. a division, rank
Original Word: τάγμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: tagma
Phonetic Spelling: (tag'-mah)
Definition: that which has been arranged in order, a division, rank
Usage: rank, division, an ordered series.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 5001 tágma (a neuter noun) – an ordered arrangement, reflecting God's perfect wisdom in ordering all of creation (it only occurs in 1 Cor 15:23). See 5021 (tassō)
 

 3952. parousia ►
Strong's Concordance
parousia: a presence, a coming
Original Word: παρουσία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: parousia
Phonetic Spelling: (par-oo-see'-ah)
Definition: a presence, a coming
Usage: (a) presence, (b) a coming, an arrival, advent, especially of the second coming of Christ.
HELPS Word-studies
3952 parousía (from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation") – properly, coming, especially the arrival of the owner who alone can deal with a situation (cf. LS). 3952 (parousía) is a "technical term with reference to the visit of a king or some other official, 'a royal visit' " (Souter) – "hence, in the NT, specifically of the Advent or Parousia of Christ" (A-S).

[3952 (parousía) is "used in the east as a technical expression for the royal visit of a king, or emperor. The word means literally 'the being beside,' thus, 'the personal presence' " (K. Wuest, 3, Bypaths, 33).]

 

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

"The Holy Spirit is the recoverer of the body, thus rendering it a "spiritual body" - NOT because it is spirit, but because it has its ORIGIN in the Spirit."

?????  Didn't see that coming.  Hope to never see it again.
 

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest NOT THAT BODY THAT SHALL BE, BUT BARE GRAIN, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased Him, and to every seed his own body.

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Just take a look at the above quote you made. 1st Corinthians 15 makes Christ the "firstfruits" of those who are dead. That immediately implies that there is another, and later part of the harvest. The word "first" introduces at least the "second" and/or "the rest". And the verse you quoted, verse 23 say; "AFTERWARD" and "AT HIS COMING".

Christ defeated death.  He was the firstfruit of THEM THAT SLEPT. Who were the DEAD/slept?  Those who came out of the graves and appeared,  PROVING He had, in fact, defeated death.  

EVER SINCE then, those who HEAR the words of God and come to faith, NEVER DIE.  So ever since that first resurrection of the dead 2000 years ago, there have been SAVED SOULS going to heaven because they received the gift of salvation and NEVER DIE.  They just 'change' bodies and realms,  and one day will be RETURNING with Him.  On that day, those who have overcome and endured to the end will be changed and will meet them and they will rule and reign with Christ for the 1000 years.  THANK GOD WE ARE NOT LIKE THE HEATHEN who think everyone dies.  

Those who are NOT SAVED, still die and they are buried and remain in the dust of the earth.  When He does return, all those souls who have received the mark of the beast will join those DEAD souls in the resurrection of the just and the unjust. Then all who have OVERCOME and ENDURED to the end,  will not 'die/experience the death of the flesh' but will be changed.  

 

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But this is not all. "AT HIS COMING" is ONLY the resurrection of "THOSE WHO ARE HIS".

at His coming.  TRUE, THERE WILL BE THE 2ND ADVENT when Christ returns to RULE AND REIGN on the Lords Day, but that not the ONLY TIME He said He would come? 

NEVER DIE.    

Who will rise when Christ returns?  THE DEAD. 

Can someone who NEVER DIES, BE DEAD?   no, they can't, they can only remain alive


HOW MANY 'SAVED SOULS' DO YOU SEE IN THIS DESCRIPTION?  

3498. nekros ►
Strong's Concordance
nekros: dead
Original Word: νεκρός, ά, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: nekros
Phonetic Spelling: (nek-ros')
Definition: dead
Usage: (a) adj: dead, lifeless, subject to death, mortal, (b) noun: a dead body, a corpse.
HELPS Word-studies
3498 nekrós (an adjective, derived from nekys, "a corpse, a dead body") – dead; literally, "what lacks life"; dead; (figuratively) not able to respond to impulses, or perform functions ("unable, ineffective, dead, powerless," L & N, 1, 74.28); unresponsive to life-giving influences (opportunities); inoperative to the things of God.

3498 /nekrós ("corpse-like") is used as a noun in certain contexts ("the dead"), especially when accompanied by the Greek definite article. The phrase, ek nekron ("from the dead"), lacks the Greek article to give the sense "from what is of death."


Does any of that fit 'NEVER DIE'?  

 

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

(Already happened PHYSICALLY (on the last day of the old covenant first day of the new), yet it still HAPPENS EVERYDAY SPIRITUALLY.  WHEN IT HAPPENS SPIRITUALLY, that SOUL becomes one of those written about in the NEXT VERSE)
 

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall NEVER DIE. 

Believest thou this?

 

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in Me.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Does that sound anything like or make you feel or resemble in any way  

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:31 And HE SHALL SEND HIS ANGELS with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

NO, because it isn't the same at all.  
 

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The "REST of the dead" are only released from Hades after another 1,000 years.

There is a resurrection of the just and the unjust DEAD AT THE RETURN OF CHRIST.  None of the DEAD who rise have souls that have been 'SAVED'. (IF they had been saved, they would have 'never died' and so not have been a part of the dead that rise) 

When the 1000 years have passed, SOME of them will be found in the book of life and they will be of the 2nd Resurrection.  Some of them will not and they will be cast into LOF, the 2nd Death. 


Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


We can be sure that those who have been ruling and reigning for the past 1000 years are NOT amongst 'the DEAD' being judged, so these dead had to have been 'raised up' at some point.  There is only one 'resurrection', that of the just and unjust (the books AND ANOTHER BOOK) AT Christs return so we can safely assume it is them.  

ONCE the 'dead' have been 'judged', THEN will the DEAD 'who DIDN'T rise in the resurrection of the just and unjust, will be 'given up/delivered up' for judgment. 
 

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

[AdHoc]

57 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Christ defeated death.  He was the firstfruit of THEM THAT SLEPT. Who were the DEAD/slept?  Those who came out of the graves and appeared,  PROVING He had, in fact, defeated death.  

EVER SINCE then, those who HEAR the words of God and come to faith, NEVER DIE.  So ever since that first resurrection of the dead 2000 years ago, there have been SAVED SOULS going to heaven because they received the gift of salvation and NEVER DIE.  They just 'change' bodies and realms,  and one day will be RETURNING with Him.  On that day, those who have overcome and endured to the end will be changed and will meet them and they will rule and reign with Christ for the 1000 years.  THANK GOD WE ARE NOT LIKE THE HEATHEN who think everyone dies.  

Those who are NOT SAVED, still die and they are buried and remain in the dust of the earth.  When He does return, all those souls who have received the mark of the beast will join those DEAD souls in the resurrection of the just and the unjust. Then all who have OVERCOME and ENDURED to the end,  will not 'die/experience the death of the flesh' but will be changed.  

This is the longest comment you have posted. Let us examine your theory. You started with Christ. Here is a divine man, possessed with eternal life and no sin. According to your theory He should NEVER DIE. What then was the event on Golgotha, and what means "give up the ghost"?

Next, you turn to "them that slept". What is then sleep - if not DEATH? But you have a problem. In a previous posting you deny David is in the grave. But now you have men coming out of the graves. Why should they come out of the graves when they already believed and died. Have you not consistently said that they leave this body behind and ascend in a spiritual body?

Next, you hold to a half-verse "they shall never die", but those of Matthew 27 died BEFORE Jesus did. What did they believe that had not yet occurred? And if they believed, why did they die? Why does scripture record Stephen as "giving up his spirit". James 2:26 says that the body without the spirit IS DEAD.

Next, you say that all who are NOT SAVED still die. Stephen died, James too. Were they believers?

Next you say that all those who are NOT SAVED still die and remain in the dust of the earth. then, when our Lord returns THEY (those who took the mark of the Beast) are resurrected. But scripture says ONLY those who are the Lord's rise at His COMING.

And then you say that in this group of men who took the mark of the Beast there are "just and unjust". How so? The criteria you have been adamant about is BELIEVING - not just works. Then, among the just and unjust are those who have OVERCOME and ENDURED to the end will not die. But John 11:25, the second half which you constantly quote, does not consider OVERCOMING and ENDURING. It is based on BELIEF!

And then you base your theory that believers will not die. But let us look at the verse.

24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

So Martha was wrong. She maintains the resurrection at the last day, not when a Christian dies. Who is correct? You or Martha?
Jesus does not correct Martha. But He points to Himself as the resurrection. But then He says; "He that BELIEVES in me, though he were DEAD, yet shall he live!". So there is DEATH for the believer! And "shall" is future tense!

Now we come to your half verse which you have quoted consistently without its context or the rest of the sentence. "And whosoever liveth ... ". Who does He speak of here? He speaks of those alive at the last day. The word "Whosoever" pegs a specific TIME because a man lives for 70 or so years and death is guaranteed. That is what Martha alluded to and He (Jesus) enhances by revealing that resurrection is not a special power only, but the embodiment of the Triune God in a Man. Verse 25 and 26 are set "at the last day". And when the "Last Day" dawns there will, as 1st Corinthians 15:51-52 and Thessalonians 4 says, be THE DEAD and "those who are ALIVE and remain". The LIVING BELIEVER at Christ's return is unique. He will never die. He overthrows 1st Corinthians 15:22 and Romans 5 which say that death passed on to all men. They form a select group which needed to be explained in the light of death being the portion of EVERY MAN.

But I have said enough. Throughout this thread, and the other one, you have hardly commented. Why not set forth a page or two to build a case from plain scriptures that dead men go to heaven. You have displayed a talent for much writing. Put your thoughts down in coherent order, with scriptures that have the same  words as you have, to show this deep doctrine of men who go to heaven without their bodies in a special spiritual resurrection. It really helps to clear the mind and draw each argument to its logical conclusion. And most of all, it helps men like me who you judge to have gone wrong by taking the plain and literal meaning of scripture.

Thanks for the exchange of ideas. Go well.

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The rule of the rod of iron will administer the death penalty to murderers, child molesters and blasphemers, so MORE will be added to Hades. And then come the mother of all battles at HammonGog where the slaughter of Magog's army will fill Hades with the souls of the dead.

Anything about 'administer the death penalty to murderers...'  found written in the words of God?


Please, if you could, tell me how 'with the whole world being deceived and taking the mark of the beast' 

(IF THE TIME were not shortened EVEN GODS ELECT would be deceived, telling us IT IS EVERYONE except those who overcome and endure to the end,  that receives the mark) 

 ANYONE could survive and/or remain 'alive' at the return of Christ,  to later be killed anywhere but in the lake of fire?  

Hopefully you are going to say 'Oh, that's TRUE, everyone who takes the mark of the beast MUST DIE INSTANTLY 

because we know that 

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

along with

1Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Which means EVERYONE WHO IS ALIVE AND REMAINING WILL BE CHANGED

and everyone who will be changed will be ever with the Lord,

and ever with the Lord is immortality

Which means that no one who has taken the mark of the beast can be amongst the 'alive and remaining' to receive immortality

Which means they must DIE.  Not to mention it is the penalty written.  

WHICH MEANS EVERYONE HAS SUFFERED THEIR 1ST DEATH or been changed

Which means there is no more FLESH bodies

Which means we are like the angels in heaven

Which means there is no taking and giving in marriage

Which means there is no more birth

Which means the ONLY DEATH LEFT IS THE ONE IN THE LAKE OF FIRE, and that comes FROM GOD.     





 

[DeighAnn]

38 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

This is the longest comment you have posted. Let us examine your theory. You started with Christ. Here is a divine man, possessed with eternal life and no sin. According to your theory He should NEVER DIE. What then was the event on Golgotha, and what means "give up the ghost"?

Talk about a conversation in which the other person has no idea what the other is saying.  Do you keep scratching your head and asking yourself if we are reading the same book?  I do.  


HOW  YOU EVER CAME UP WITH  'According to my theory He should NEVER DIE?' I CAN'T even begin to imagine.

Maybe you missed the lesson on the OLD COVENANT to the NEW COVENANT and what is required? 

As for CHRIST to  'NEVER DIE' is simply IMPOSSIBLE because IT IS WRITTEN

Hebrews 9:8 The Holy Spirit this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

Hebrews 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

Hebrews 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place,

having obtained  eternal redemption for us.

Hebrews 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

Hebrews 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Hebrews 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

Hebrews 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

Hebrews 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

Hebrews 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Hebrews 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

Hebrews 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

(that we might be where He is)

Hebrews 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.



Just in case 

Romans 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Romans 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

Romans 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held;


that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.