The "Great Multitude" and "Great Tribulation" of Revelation 7:9-17

[not an echo]

Hello all,

There has been much discussion over what John recorded in Revelation 7:9-17, which is part of his account of what he saw after the Lamb's opening of the 6th Seal in Revelation 6:12-17.  When it is considered what Jesus said in His Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24:29-30, it is not difficult to make the prophetic puzzle piece connection of His words there with what John saw concerning the opening of the 6th Seal.  Also, if what Jesus said in the next verse of this Matthew reference (vs. 31) is of the rapture, it is not difficult to make the prophetic puzzle piece connection of this with what John saw concerning the "great multitude" of Revelation 7:9-17.  Moreover, when it comes to questions over the sequence of last days' events, it is not difficult to see what one might conclude as a result of it being said of this great multitude that "These are they which came out of great tribulation" (vs. 14).  But, there is much disagreement over the "great multitude" that John here sees and the "great tribulation" that is here spoken of.  Borrowing a little from the questions one of the elders asked John in verse 13, "What is this 'great multitude' that John here sees, and what is this 'great tribulation' here spoken of?"  A popular reasoning is that the great tribulation here spoken of is in reference to the Seven Year Tribulation Period, or Daniel's 70th Week.  And, if so, this would seem to indicate (at least on the surface) that the great multitude---if this be the Church---will go through this period.  Hence, some support for the post-trib rapture position.  On the other hand, many who hold to the common pre-trib rapture position put forth that this great multitude is not a reference to the Church at all, but to those who will be saved during the aforementioned seven year period of Daniel's 70th Week.  And, there are other common understandings.  The purpose of this thread will be to examine these questions, to consider the merits of a another interpretation, and to hopefully help towards reconciling some differences of opinion on what the truth is of what John saw.

The well known phrase, "The Seven Year Tribulation Period" is also commonly referred to as "The Great Tribulation."  Some use this phrase in reference to the whole seven years of this period, some, in reference to only the last 3-1/2 years.  Note that the "the" preceding the words "great tribulation" is not found in the King James Version (KJV ) of Revelation 7:14 as it is in the later translations.  We will be looking at all of this further, but for now, it just needs to be acknowledged that there is a lot of difference between "great tribulation" and what has come to be called "THE Great Tribulation."

While my position is that the Church will not be subjected to any of the great tribulation of Daniel's 70th Week, is there any evidence in Scripture that it will not be subjected to great tribulation?  To the contrary, the early Church was warned to expect such (e.g., Acts 14:21-22 and I Pet. 4:12-13), and did, and the evidence of history is that such has been the case throughout the era of the Church.  How much greater would the tribulation have to be in the days that Christians were fed to lions or burned at the stake for such to be regarded as great tribulation?  In our country, the Church may not presently be subjected to such great tribulation (relatively speaking), but such is and has been the case with the Church from a worldwide perspective since the days of the apostles.

Consider:  From a worldwide and historical perspective, could it be said of those who are a part of Christ's Church when gathered together in glory, "These are they which came out of great tribulation"?  I believe so!  However, while the Church has experienced great tribulation, it will not experience any of Daniel's 70th Week.  If the great multitude in Revelation 7:14 is indeed the Church, this is why it is seen in Heaven, just before the opening of the 7th Seal.  It is not until this last seal is opened (which can happen the same day) that things will begin to come together for Daniel's 70th Week.  Furthermore, what is up ahead will be the time of Israel's trouble, referred to in Jeremiah 30:7 as "Jacob's Trouble".  This was never intended to be the time of the Church's trouble.  The Church will escape, or be delivered from this time.

Digging deeper, the words "great tribulation" are translated from the Greek words megas  and thlipsis  respectively.  Almost as often, thlipsis  is translated "trouble" or "affliction".  Paul used the word thlipsis  to describe what he and Timothy went through in Asia, saying also, "we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life" (I Cor. 1:8).  Stephen used the words, megas thlipsis, translated "great affliction",  when he described what the land of Egypt and Canaan went through in the days that Joseph was governor in Egypt and his family came to him for corn (Acts 7:11ff ).  These same words are also used in a warning given to the church in Thyatira (Rev. 2:22).  The point is, there is a major difference between going through great tribulation and going through Daniel's 70th Week, or that time so many refer to as "The Great Tribulation".  Thus, it is clear scripturally that great tribulation doesn't necessarily mean Daniel's 70th Week.  For more on this, consider my thread, Tribulation, Great Tribulation, and Daniel's 70th Week (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/269079-tribulation-great-tribulation-and-daniels-70th-week/).

To sum things up so far, when the words "great tribulation" from Revelation 7:14 (as they occur in the KJV) are understood to be in reference to what the Church as a whole has experienced since the time that Christ founded it, it is much easier to recognize this great multitude that John saw as being the Church, which has finally "came out of" what it has so long been through.

While the preceding might cover the question before us to the satisfaction of some, for a fair treatment, we must focus further on that little "the" mentioned earlier.  This definite article is found preceding the words "great tribulation" in most of the translations published since the KJV.  A difference such as this is sometimes the result of the use of a different manuscript by the translators.  In the case of the "the" in question here, the manuscripts upon which other translations are based show this article, as does the Textus Receptus, upon which the KJV is based.  Just why this "the" is not found in the KJV would be difficult to ascertain.  The work of interpretation and translation of languages is a very complex undertaking.  Whatever the reason, this might appear to be something that would affect the interpretation I put forth.  But, there is more to this passage than the "the".

In an effort to more fully address the above concerns, let's just concede the definite article for a moment.  Let's turn our attention to another portion of the verse in question as rendered by the translations that do include it.  For example, at least three modern day translations read thus:  "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation" (New International, Amplified, and Revised Standard versions).  Noting the words in bold, and using the reader as an example, what criteria would have to be met for it to be said that you have "come out of" something?  The most natural response might be that you would have to be in it to come out of it, but there are other factors.  Like, how long would you have to be in something before it could be truthfully said that you have come out of it?  Also, realize that you can come out of something in the sense of having gone through it, or you can come out of something in the sense of having escaped it.  I'm really not trying to split hairs here.  I'm really just trying to get down to the nitty-gritty of what this passage can mean.  Will you help me?

For a moment, picture yourself sitting in the coffee shop on the ground floor of the North Tower of the World Trade Center on the morning of September 11, 2001.  You are sipping on your first cup of coffee for the day with some of your co-workers when all of a sudden there is this strange noise, and you feel a shaking sensation.  "What was that?" you exclaim!  Someone remarks that it might have been an earthquake.  There is a stir of curiosity.  In another second, an alarm goes off.  Next thing you know, someone is running by screaming something about an explosion happening in the top of the tower.  Near an exit, you rush outside where everyone is looking up, and you pick out something being said about a jet airliner crashing into the tower.  You keep backing up, looking up, completely awestruck that such a catastrophe is unfolding right before your very eyes.  Everything is in a complete frenzy, debris is falling all around, and there is a great plume of smoke bellowing into the sky.  Everyone is scrambling to get out of the building and from harm's way, and you end up one of the fortunate ones.  When the day is done, you end up being in the number of those who have come out of the great disaster in New York.  And, in what sense have you come out of it?  In the sense of having escaped it.  No one will deny you that!

The position of the interpretation I put forth concerning our present focus is similar to the preceding narrative.  With the Church being raptured after the opening of the 6th Seal, the day this seal is opened could begin something like the following, using the reader (if saved) and a lost spouse as an example:

On a Monday morning at about 1:28 a.m. CST (remember, this is just an example!), Christ, "The Lamb",  opens the 6th Seal and leaves the portals of glory to make a sign appearance and for the gathering of the Church.  Concurrent with this, you are startled awake by a great earthquake.  Next thing you know, WHEW!  UP YOU GO!, RIGHT THROUGH YOUR BEDROOM CEILING AS IF IT ISN'T EVEN THERE!, AND WHEW!!!  "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,"  you are one in a great multitude that has just been caught up by the angels "to meet the Lord in the air."  You are in the number of those who have just been raptured, or gathered by the angels.  Startled awake at the same time you were, but missing your departure, your spouse is absolutely perplexed and fear struck.  Everything in the house is rattling, as if everything is coming apart at the seams.  Your spouse looks out the window and beholds that the moon looks red as blood.  Meanwhile, on the other side of the earth, the sun looks black as sackcloth made of hair.  Suddenly, what looks like a falling star streaks through the sky, and then another one, and another one, and then, and then---the sky does something really weird, as if it is a giant scroll rolling together, enfolding itself.

Now stay with me.  After you are safely with Christ, a lot more will happen that same minute, hour, and day, much the same as a lot more happened that September day after the first occupants of the North Tower made it safely away.  Keeping within the time perimeters that Scripture affords, the day the 6th Seal is opened and the rapture occurs, things could progress through the sounding of the 4th Trumpet before that day is done.  Don't dismiss this possibility too quickly.  There is no time frame given during this time that prevents such an understanding.  When this is understood, and everything after the rapture is considered to be associated with the great tribulation, it can truthfully be said that you have "come out of the great tribulation" in the sense of having escaped it.  From your spouse's perspective, you will have just escaped the great tribulation that he or she has been "left" (Matt. 24:40-41) to face.  With this in mind, notice afresh the following two verses, which reflect your state:

The first is from what John gives an account of in Revelation chapter seven, just after his account of the opening of the 6th Seal:

  9   After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, STOOD BEFORE THE THRONE, AND BEFORE THE LAMB, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The second is from Luke's account of Jesus' Olivet Discourse, in Luke 21:

 36  Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

And, what is it that Jesus is saying can be escaped?  This is reflected in the same chapter (and context) of Luke's account, beginning 11 verses prior:

 25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars;  and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity;  the sea and the waves roaring;

 26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth:  for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

What Luke here records of Jesus' words is like a paraphrase of what John writes concerning the 6th Seal.  With all the foregoing in mind, I now invite you to turn in your Bible and read again John's account of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-17) and of the great multitude he beheld in the very next chapter (Rev. 7:9-17).  Then, conclude for yourself how the Spirit and these scriptures speak to you.

I hope I have demonstrated fairly that there is more than one way to interpret the words "great tribulation" in Revelation 7:14.  My experience has been that every Scripture upon which a belief or doctrine might turn can be interpreted at least two ways---one right, one wrong.  Satan will see to that.  This particular passage is no different, except it has the added difficulty of the definite article "the" to reconcile.  Because of this, it could be said that there are at least four ways to interpret the passage in question---a right and a wrong way without regard for the definite article and a right and a wrong way with regard for the definite article.  So, what does one do?  One must look to and rely upon the rest of the body of the scriptures and seek for an understanding that will result in perfect harmony.  This is what I have here done.  Concerning the question before us, an interpretation has been submitted with regard to the words "great tribulation" and also with regard to the words "the great tribulation."  In consideration of other scriptural evidences, this means the "great tribulation" spoken of in Revelation 7:14 is either what the Church has so long been through or what the Church will have just escaped from.  Interestingly, either of these interpretations will support that the great multitude in Revelation 7:9-17 is the just resurrected and raptured Church.  Also, either harmonizes with the rest of the body of the scriptures.  Paul spoke against striving about words "to no profit" (II Tim. 2:14).  It is hoped that our having here strived about some words will be found to be of great profit.

Finally, while we have considered some very important things concerning the opening of the 6th Seal, to this point in our discussion, that mysterious Seven Sealed Book remains unopened.  The last seal is still intact.  But the resurrection and the rapture of the Church has occurred.  To those who believe the Bible teaches a pre-trib or pre-Daniel's 70th Week gathering of the Church, just know this:  We who are a part of Christ's Church will be safely with Him on yonder shore before He opens the 7th Seal.  Further, within the bounds that Scripture affords, this last or 7th Seal can be opened the same day the rapture occurs.  This helps to show that every seal on the outside of THE SEVEN SEALED BOOK relates entirely to the era of the Church---all seven seals.  And, every page on the inside of this book relates entirely to the Day of the Lord, which includes Daniel's 70th Week  and everything else this side of eternity---every single page.

This thread is one of many that I have started that relates to A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation that I have put forth.  Following is a link to my master thread by this same title, where I give 36 propositions relating to this interpretation and also keep a running list of the threads I have started that relate to it (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).

Edited February 5, 2023 by not an echo
somehow accidently posted before complete

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, not an echo said:

Accidently posted before complete...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I hope you take it up again. It is a momentous affair for it puts strain on the Pre-Tribulation Rapture theory. It needs to be dealt with.

[Revelation Man]

21 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I hope you take it up again. It is a momentous affair for it puts strain on the Pre-Tribulation Rapture theory. It needs to be dealt with.

Just the opposite, those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 can ONLY BE the Pre Trib Raptured Church. You guys just do not comprehend things in full. 

For instance, in Rev. 6, in the 5th Seal Jesus tells those under the Altar (who get killed during the 70th week) that they MUST WAIT until all of their brothers have been killed in like manner as they have, which means they must hold off for their vengeance until the Anti-Christ 42 month reign is over, only then will they get their vengeance, and thus those under the altar do not make Heaven until ALL of the Martyrs who the Beast kills die over his 42 month reign of terror. Then, in Rev. 20:4 we can actually SEE when those who die during the 70th week get raised and Judged. And that is only AFTER Jesus' second coming.

Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

So, how are those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 not seen as the Pre Trib Raptured Church? You and others conflate things which should be easily discerned my brother. 

John 16:33 ALL TIME is Tribulation, Jesus said so. 

1.) So we have the Church Age Tribulation.

2.) The 70th week Troubles/tribulation.

3.) The 3.5 years of the worst ever tribulation, ever seen by mankind.

Great is an ADJECTIVE that describes things, nothing more or less in most cases. But GREAT can describe more than one thing. It can describe SEVERITY and LENGTH.

Is 2000 GREATER than 7? As in2000>7 ? Yes, indeed it is, don't pigeonhole God's vocabulary.

Is the last 3.5 years GREATER than all other troubles ever seen? Yes. 

So, what we have to do is add it all up, which one fits? Well, the 3.5 years of Wrath and Tribulation CAN NOT FIT because no one gets Raptured during the 70th week, Jesus says that they MUST ALL WAIT............Then we see in Rev. 20:4 those who REFUSED the Mark of the Beast get judged only AFTER the Second Coming, not before, thus they CAN NOT be seen in Heaven during the Rev. 6 Seal Events. 

Those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 come out of the GREAT Church Age Tribulation that has seen millions of Christian have to suffer and many lay down their lives for Christ Jesus' name to push forward the Christian Good News.

Amen. 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Revelation Man

[AdHoc]

10 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Just the opposite, those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 can ONLY BE the Pre Trib Raptured Church. You guys just do not comprehend things in full. 

For instance, in Rev. 6, in the 5th Seal Jesus tells those under the Altar (who get killed during the 70th week) that they MUST WAIT until all of their brothers have been killed in like manner as they have, which means they must until the Anti-Christ 42 month reign is over before they can get their vengeance, and thus those under the altar do not make Heaven until ALL of the Martyrs who the Beast kills dies over his 42 month reign of terror. Then, in Rev. 20:4 we can actually SEE when those who die during the 70th week get raised and Judged. And that is only AFTER Jesus' second coming.

Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

So, how are those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 not seen as the Pre Trib Raptured Church? By you they are not because you conflate things which should be easily discerned. 

John 16:33 ALL TIME is Tribulation, Jesus said so. 

So we have the Church Age Tribulation.

The 70th week Troubles/tribulation.

The 3.5 years of the worst ever tribulation ever seen by mankind.

Great is an ADJECTIVE that describes things, nothin g more or less in most cases. But GREAT can decribe more than one thing. It can describe SEVERITY and LENGTH.

Is 2000 GREATER than 7? As in2000>7 ? Yes, indeed it is, don't pigeonhole Gd's vocabulary.

Is the last 3.5 years GREATER than al other troubles ever seen? Yes. 

So, what we have to do is add it all up, which one fits? Well, the 3.5  CAN NOT FIT because no one gets Raptured during the 70th week, Jesus says that they MUST ALL WAIT............Then we see in Rev. 20:4 those who REFUSED the Mark of the Beast get judged only AFTER the Second Coming, not before, thus they CAN NOT be seen in Heaven during the Rev. 6 Seal Events. 

Those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 come out of the GREEAT Church Age Tribulation that has seen millions of Christian have to suffer and many lay down their lives for Christ Jesus' name to push forward the Christian Good News.

Amen. 

Here is the text from the New King James Version.

Revelation 7:9–17 (NKJV)
9  After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
10  and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”
11  All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
12  saying: “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”
13  Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
14  And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of THE great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15  Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.
16  They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat;
17  for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

The reason for using the New King James is that in verse 14 it has the article before "tribulation". It is "THE " tribulation. In 1611 the translators decided on  a manuscript which did not have the article, but which has since been discarded in favor of the manuscript that every other Bible uses, including the NKJV. The article sets this Tribulation aside from all the other "tribulations". They are "tribulations", but this is "THE" Tribulation - making it special and unique. Matthew 24 speaks of this special tribulation in verse 21, "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be." According to the context it is caused by the Abomination of Desolation predicted by Daniel, and this will happen i the last 3 ½ years of this age (Dan.9:27).

So, irrespective of any other events, the plain language of verse 14 is that this innumerable multitude went through "THE" Great Tribulation.

Now, we have to see who this innumerable company is. The first indication is that they stand before the throne. And this throne is in heaven because the 4 Creatures and the 24 Elders are present. Chapter 4 makes them heavenly beings. So if the scene of the throne is heaven, then this innumerable multitude must be the Church because they are the only ones ever promised to go to the sky. Israel and the Nations never go to heaven.

The second indication is their white robes. According to Revelation 19:7-8 the white robes of a saint is HIS/HER righteousness. A Christian has TWO garments. One is the righteous works of Jesus. This garment we wear to contact God for only Christ's righteousness is acceptable for audience with God. But we have another garment for the Wedding Feast. And Revelation 19:7-8 says that this garment is one that WE ourselves prepare. Now, notice verse 14 again. It says "THEIR robes". That is, the robes shown here are the works of the wearer. AND THEY NEEDED TO BE WASHED! That is, the works of the great multitude were not up to standard. The garments were dirty. The garments were NOT WHITE!

Now, the reward for a Christian whose garments are white is TWOFOLD; (i) he may go into the Wedding Feast (Rev.19:7-8), and (ii) he may be co-king with Jesus in God's Kingdom (Lk.19:17-19). But these who went through THE Great Tribulation may only SERVE in God's House. They are made SERVANTS not KINGS!

The SORROW of tears was caused by the Great Tribulation - heat, hunger and the strike of the sun. Added to this THEY HAD NO SHEPHERD, for only after the Great Tribulation "WILL" (future tense) Christ be their Shepherd. Added to this, these Christians did not make use of the "Living Fountains of Water". Only after the Great Tribulation does the Great Shepherd, Jesus, lead them there.

What we have here in Revelation 7:9-17 is the apostate Church that was NOT WATCHING for their Master, having missed the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, and having gone through the heat and suffering of THE Great Tribulation to REFINE and RIPEN them. And then, because their garments were not up to standard, they missed the Wedding Feast. No wonder the Great Shepherd must wipe away their tears! These slothful Christians - a great multitude of them - must spend the last 3 ½ years of this age (i) defeated by the Beast (Rev.13:7), and (ii) fleeing to a wilderness (Rev.12) and are only raptured AFTER they passed through THE Great Tribulation!

Missing the Great Tribulation is CONDITIONAL! You have to EARN the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Look at the grammar of both Luke 21:36 and Revelation 3:10!

36  Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

10  Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth

In BOTH cases you have to EARN your escape from the Great Tribulation!

[not an echo]

Hello all,

I had been minded to reserve the second post of this thread for the following, but I accidentally submitted my opening post before I was done with it and that got me all crossed up.  I still don't know what happened.  I may have inadvertently pushed one of those keyboard function keys, but I don't know which one (if someone knows, let me know, as I will superglue it or something so it can never happen again!).  In any case, when it happened, I went down a path of saving my work, deleting the post, giving a short explanation, and continuing later when I found the time.  I did not anticipate that there would be responses before I finished.

Because of the differing understandings relating to the subject of this thread and the sequence of last day's events, I felt it would be of a help if a shared a narrative of my overall understanding, especially as it relates to the subject of the rapture.  While everything in this narrative is based upon what God has revealed to us in His Word, I have intentionally kept references to a minimum in an effort to make my narrative more readable.  Anyone familiar will recognize the references.  I hope the following is helpful, at least in showing how everything comes together with my different interpretation(s).

A LAST DAY'S NARRATIVE

The stated purpose of The Revelation, which was given to the Apostle John, was to show unto Christ's servants "things which must shortly come to pass."  It was further stated, "for the time is at hand."  This means that something was getting ready to take place or to begin to take place.  The first thing John saw, of which this could rightly be said, was the opening of some seals on a mysterious seven sealed book.  The first four seals reveal the activity of four horsemen that go forth on a campaign associated with deception, wars, poverty, and martyrdom, respectively.  These things parallel in sequence what Jesus warned His disciples of in a talk He had with them on Mount Olivet, commonly called The Olivet Discourse.  Hence, in harmony with the stated purpose of The Revelation and what Jesus said, first century Christians were under notice for certain things to begin to take place.  Did the things Jesus warned of and John saw take place or begin to be fulfilled?  History bears much testimony to the affirmative.

A perceived problem with the foregoing is the 4th Seal and what is said about power being given to Death and Hell over "the fourth part of the earth" (Rev. 6:8).  The common interpretation is that this denotes that one-fourth of the population is to be killed, and history doesn't testify to this many people ever having been killed since Christ's time.  But, the fourth part of the earth is actually a geographical statement, and when interpreted from this perspective, the possibilities for what this seal depicts are radically changed.  Applied specifically to our day, we know that there are many places upon the earth (arguably totaling 1/4 of it) so hostile to Christians that, if they go there, they may never come back.  Moreover, it has been this way throughout the era of the Church.  The correctness of this interpretation is made all the more apparent by what John sees after the opening of the 5th Seal---those martyred during the Church era and the assurance they receive that their blood will at long last be avenged.

Everything taken together, there is strong scriptural support to go with what history bears testimony to for the position that the four horsemen have been riding throughout the centuries of Christianity.  From the perspective set forth by my different interpretation(s), they have left quite a trail.  It must be borne in mind that Almighty God has from Adam's day granted to Satan certain liberties to ply his craft.  He would have absolutely none otherwise.  The horsemen of the first four seals merely represent the spiritual realm forces Satan has used to continue the exercising of these liberties into and throughout the era of the Church.  The Lamb (Christ) opened the first four seals as early as the first century, and Satan's henchmen have been riding ever since, insatiably bent on accomplishing his sinister goals.  It is to the credit of Satan's effectiveness to deceive and misdirect that their activity has not been tied to them.  Hopefully, my angle of observation has made their hoofprints easier to discern.  And, through the lens of a worldwide perspective, it can be seen that they are even now very much on the move.

The Revelation is about a lot more, much of it related to what Jesus said in His Olivet Discourse.  Because of this, The Revelation holds keys that help to unlock the mysteries of what He there spoke about and vice-versa.  For example, it is clear that distinct phenomena occurring with the sun and the moon are going to accompany Christ's return (or some aspect of it) because we find concerning this in all three accounts of His discourse and in Revelation 6:12-17, in John's account of the 6th Seal.  But, John also gives an account of Christ's return much later, in Revelation 19, an account we all know to be of His Second Advent.  This supports that there will be a major preceding event to His Second Advent and that His 6th Seal return is that event.  Furthermore, what happens surrounding this 6th Seal event dovetails with the event of which Jesus says the following:  "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30a).  What happens surrounding this "sign" event also dovetails with the corresponding sections of Mark and Luke's accounts, which in turn, tie back in with the 6th Seal event.  Allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture, this supports that Christ's 6th Seal return is the time of a sign appearance He is going to make, an understanding that is extremely helpful.

Also in support of the foregoing is the prophecy of Joel's, appealed to by Peter on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:16-21).  Not only does this prophecy concern God's pouring out of His Spirit upon the Church, it also points to the Church era, as it encompasses the time from its inauguration on the Day of Pentecost until its close, just before the beginning of the period of the Day of the Lord.  It is quite apparent that Joel's prophecy is precise concerning elements of the very day of the beginning of the Church era.  Not so apparent is that it is equally as precise concerning elements of the very day of its end.  This is confirmed if what it says concerning the signs in the sun and the moon fits with the 6th Seal and with everything else that fits with the 6th Seal---and it does.  Because the end of the era of the Church is marked by the rapture, Joel's much overlooked prophecy holds perhaps the most important key to unmistakably recognizing the time of this event in The Revelation.

Based on these things, the chronology of The Revelation, and much more, we can know that the rapture of the Church will occur just after Christ's opening of the 6th Seal.  This has the rapture occurring just before the beginning of the Day of the Lord or "the great day of His wrath" (Rev. 6:17), as spoken of in John's account of this seal.  After this, John writes of the 144,000 sealed Jews and then beholds the just resurrected and raptured Church in Heaven, of which it is truthfully said, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."  Christ then opens the last seal (which can be opened the same day as the 6th Seal) of the Seven Sealed Book, a book that could rightly be entitled, THE DAY OF THE LORD.  With the Day of the Lord having begun, things will start coming together (and quickly) for the fulfilling of the seven years of Daniel's 70th Week.  This has the rapture occurring before that time of tribulation, making this a solid pre-Daniel's 70th Week rapture position.

Concerning Daniel's prophecy of 70 weeks, the fact that the Church was not a part of the first 69 weeks strongly suggests that it will not be a part of the 70th Week.  Similarly, what is in our Western Hemisphere was also not a part of the first 69 weeks, and there is prophetic evidence that it too will not be a part of the 70th Week.  Part of this evidence occurs just after the opening of the 7th Seal with the sounding of the first four of seven trumpets and the resultant destruction of one-third of the earth (Rev. 8:7-12).  If this destruction is concentrated (rather than cumulative) and occurs primarily in our hemisphere, this would represent one-third of the earth---to within less than one percentage point.  This supports that what is in our hemisphere may be taken out of the picture at this time for the purpose of bringing the focus again to bear upon what is in Israel's hemisphere---as in the Bible days.  Interestingly, this can scripturally occur later, the same day of the rapture.  Said another way, it looks like God is going to do something staggering and global to effect the resetting of the world's stage for the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week.  In harmony with this possibility, if all the remaining population of the earth during that time is in Israel's hemisphere, this takes the mystery away from how "every eye" shall simultaneously behold Christ (in Person!) at His Second Advent.

If the first four trumpets of Revelation chapter 8 result in the destruction of what is in our hemisphere, and trumpets number five and six of chapter 9 result in the completion of the stage for Daniel's 70th Week, this fits that "little book open" in chapter 10 to be the little book of Daniel (Dan. 12:4, 8-10).  This fit is made all the more apparent by what we discover in chapter 11, as everything John now begins to see relates to Daniel's 70th Week.  This becomes especially evident when the worship occurring in verse one of this chapter is understood as being directed toward the Antichrist.  This understanding is supported by Paul's prophecy concerning "that man of sin...the son of perdition;  who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped;  so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" (II Thess. 2:3-4).  Further reinforcing this interpretation are the next two verses (Rev. 11:2-3), which are clearly in reference to two 3-1/2 year periods of time, equaling the seven years of tribulation that make up Daniel's 70th Week.

Finally, the sounding of the 7th Trumpet heralds the long anticipated period that will result in complete closure for this world.  This period will include the last half of Daniel's 70th Week, Christ's Second Advent, the Battle of Armageddon, Christ's Millennial Reign, and the Last Judgment.  After this, time will give way to eternity, as revealed beginning in Revelation chapter 21.

Edited February 5, 2023 by not an echo
I had reserved this slot for the present post

[Revelation Man]

16 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Here is the text from the New King James Version.

 

I will play along, but switching bible versions never moves me, it says the same thing from God's perspectives, no matter how its sliced and diced. God doesn't really care what men thinks it said via a different translation tbh. 

16 hours ago, AdHoc said:

9  After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

Proving of course this is the Pre Trib Raptured Church of ALL Nations, not the Jews "supposedly" raised at the time of Jesus' death. Which I think is incorrect because God told Daniel in Dan. 12:1-2 that the Jews would be raised at the VERY END of this time, right after the TIME OF TROUBLES they were to face for 1260 days.

16 hours ago, AdHoc said:

14  And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of THE great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Yes indeed, THE GREAT Church Age Tribulation as in 2000 is GREATER than 7, did you not read my post? You see, Jesus stated ALL TIME is Tribulation on this earth (John 16:33). So, the Church age is indeed Tribulation, as stated by Jesus/God. And 2000 years is greater than 7 as in 2000>7 this is not that difficult to comprehend, even if you have been condition (as I once believed also, erroneously) to think of the great tribulation as being only one end time description, no, Tribulation is ALL TIME, so if the Church Age Trib is GREATER in length than the 70th week than God can indeed describe it as THE GREAT TRIB as per all of those people who came out of it. Whether you or others can grasp that is not relevant to what God is saying in this situation tbh. God says what He says. We know this is the Pre Trib Raptured Church because those who die during the 70th week are NOT RAISED until after the 2nd Coming as shown in Rev 20:4,and we know Jesus told those Martyrs they MUST WAIT on vengeance until all the brothers were killed (meaning until the Beasts 42 month rule was finished). So, it doesn't matter what FITS..... your understanding of the Great Tribulation is all that matters, event though it will not fit !! But this is because of conditioning, something I see in a lot of people tbh.

16 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The reason for using the New King James is that in verse 14 it has the article before "tribulation". It is "THE " tribulation.

And THE can and in this instance does mean THE Church Age Tribulation. See my point, I don't deny THE is an article speaking about a certain tribulation, but it goes right past you that this CERTAIN GREAT TRIBULATION PERIOD doesn't have to be the most SEVERE EVER TROUBLES, but can indeed also be the GREATEST EVER LENGTH of troubles, you pigeon hole God's vocabulary unto how you think and see it, that doesn't work brother. I am not trying to be overtly critical, just trying to get you to step back and look at the 10,000 foot view here. Lets take Dan. 7:11 and Rev. 19:20, is God lying in one of those verses are just like the GREAT TRIBULATION VERSE do we misconstrue it? 

Dan. 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Rev. 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

So, is God lying, or do men MISCONSTRUE and MISTRANSLATE and MISUNDERSTAND things? I go with the later.

The Anti-Christ is actually KILLED and then he is cast into hell. Do you know how I get that from these 2 verses? I weigh them against OTHER SCRIPTURES just like I am doing above with the Rev. 6 verse that shows the 5th Seal Martyrs and the Rev. 20:4 Judgments TIMING. But in this instance, I understand that the holy word of God says that ALL MEN must die, then the judgment comes, and I understand that God states via Paul that men's souls SLEEP until the Rapture.... "1 Cor. 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed," .....thus I know that in Rev. 19:20 God/Jesus is indeed going to kill the Anti-Christ and False Prophet, but then he is going to cast them ALIVE (they do not get to rest until the 2nd Resurrection like everyone else) into hell, but Satan and his evil minions and those wicked men who died in their wickedness, will all be cast into hell after Jesus 1000 year reign. Where the Beast and False Prophet ARE !! So, all those who say the Anti-Christ NEVER DIES are in error. Likewise, we have to use scripture to iron out all supposed contradictions. The Great Tribulation those men from Rev. 7:9-17 are from CAN NOT be from the 70th week tribulation period, and thus they can ONLY BE from the Church Age Tribulation via the pre trib Rapture. We must be able to add all of these things up via ALL SCRIPTURES, Here a little, there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept. TBH, this is why so many people can't see the Pre Trib Rapture, it has to be put together via the scripture, sans Paul says I tell you a MYSTERY (Musterion or SECRET by God's Silence.......TO SHUT THE MOUTH). 

So, as a guy who has a blog teaching about the "Article" in 2 Thess. 2:1-3 proving the DEPARTURE is pointing to a SPECFIC DEPARTURE spoken of in verse 1 (the Gathering unto Jesus Christ) I clearly understand the point about THE ARTICLE. But I also understand that changes nothing, that Article (THE) can also be pointing at THE 2000 year Church Age Tribulation Period. And in this case it is, only in our minds do we think we can we can limit God's vocabulary. I hope you catch the point brother, like I stated, I believed the same thing for 30 years. But the TIMIING never fit, so I knew something was off.

Now, at the same time, I prefer to place the words as they were written, why should we trust a version that ADDS in the word THE which was not even there according to my 1611 KJV Greek into English Transliteration version?

Reulation 7:14 And 2532 I said 2046 z5758 vnto him, 846 Sir, 2962 thou 4771 knowest. 1492 z5758 And 2532 he said 2036 z5627 to me, 3427 These 3778 are x1526 they y1526 z5748 which came 2064 z5740 out of 1537 great 3173 tribulation, 2347 and 2532 haue washed 4150 z5656 their y846 x848 robes, 4749 and 2532 made y3021 z0 them y4749 y846 white 3021 z5656 x848 in 1722 the x3588 blood 129 of the x3588 Lambe. 721

 #3173 μέγας megas {meg'-as} (Great)

 [including the prolonged forms, feminine megale, plural megaloi,
    etc., cf also G3176, G3187]; TDNT - 4:529,573; adj
—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) great
    1a) of the external form or sensible appearance of things (or
        of persons)
        1a1) in particular, of space and its dimensions, as respects
             1a1a) mass and weight: great
             1a1b) compass and extent: large, spacious
             1a1c) measure and height: long
             1a1d) stature and age: great, old
    1b) of number and quantity: numerous, large, abundant
    1c) of age: the elder
    1d) used of intensity and its degrees: with great effort, of
        the affections and emotions of the mind, of natural events
        powerfully affecting the senses: violent, mighty, strong
 2) predicated of rank, as belonging to

--------------------------------------------------

 #2347 θλῖψις thlipsis {thlip'-sis} (Tribulation)

 from G2346; TDNT - 3:139,334; n f
—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

 1) a pressing, pressing together, pressure
 2) metaph. oppression, affliction, tribulation, distress, straits
—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
From G2346; pressure (literally or figuratively):—afflicted, (-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.
—Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)
-------------------------------------------------

As the Greek Study says, it can be a measurement of both LENGTH and INTENSISTY OF DEGREES !! We demand it can only be the intensity of degrees version. When that does not fit the description !! They came of of the 2000 year Church Age Period via a Pre Trib Rapture, we know this because we can understand the scriptures, because those Martyrs under the Altar are SPECIFICALLY TOLD they must wait until all of their brothers have been killed in LIKE MANNER as they were (Martyrs) and in Revelation 20:4 we see that those who refused the Mark of the Beast are not raised and Judged until AFTER the 2nd Coming. 

16 hours ago, AdHoc said:

In 1611 the translators decided on  a manuscript which did not have the article, but which has since been discarded in favor of the manuscript that every other Bible uses, including the NKJV.

It is not there, and it would not matter if it were. SEE ABOVE.

16 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The article sets this Tribulation aside from all the other "tribulations". They are "tribulations", but this is "THE" Tribulation - making it special and unique. Matthew 24 speaks of this special tribulation in verse 21, "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be." According to the context it is caused by the Abomination of Desolation predicted by Daniel, and this will happen i the last 3 ½ years of this age (Dan.9:27).

Yes, there is a Greatest Ever Troubles, but those who are seen in Heaven in Rev. 7 did not nor can not, come out of THAT TRIBULATION PERIOD. They came out of the Church Age Tribulation Period. But if you understood the Pre Trib Rapture, (maybe you do for all I know) this would or should come easy for you.

16 hours ago, AdHoc said:

So, irrespective of any other events, the plain language of verse 14 is that this innumerable multitude went through "THE" Great Tribulation.

No, they came out of THE Church Age Tribulation. Even though THE is not in the passage. 

16 hours ago, AdHoc said:

What we have here in Revelation 7:9-17 is the apostate Church that was NOT WATCHING for their Master, having missed the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, and having gone through the heat and suffering of THE Great Tribulation to REFINE and RIPEN them. And then, because their garments were not up to standard, they missed the Wedding Feast. No wonder the Great Shepherd must wipe away their tears! These slothful Christians - a great multitude of them - must spend the last 3 ½ years of this age (i) defeated by the Beast (Rev.13:7), and (ii) fleeing to a wilderness (Rev.12) and are only raptured AFTER they passed through THE Great Tribulation!

Missing the Great Tribulation is CONDITIONAL! You have to EARN the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Look at the grammar of both Luke 21:36 and Revelation 3:10!

So, you do understand the Pre Trib Rapture, but then you miss the very thing that PROVES the Pre Trib Rapture, because in your mind all you can see is GREAT meaning SEVERITY, even though the 5th Seal and Rev. 20:4 proves those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 can not come from the 70th week. You are doing exactly what I used to do, warping things so that it fits, even when it really doesn't fit. All because GREAT can only describe one time, when in fact God can use GREAT in many, many different ways to describe many different things. In your MIND it can only mean ONE THING so you have boxed yourself into a corner brother.

God Bless....this HELPS out the Pre Trib Rapture, it doesn't hurt our case. And its also factual. End Time Eschatology has been my calling for 37 years. Nothing in the book of Revelation stumps me. 

Edited June 8, 2022 by Revelation Man

[AdHoc]

43 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

I will play along, but switching bible versions never moves me, it says the same thing from God's perspectives, no matter how its sliced and diced. God doesn't really care what men thinks it said via a different translation tbh. 

Proving of course this is the Pre Trib Raptured Church of ALL Nations, not the Jews "supposedly" raised at the time of Jesus' death. Which I think is incorrect because God told Daniel in Dan. 12:1-2 that the Jews would be raised at the VERY END of this time, right after the TIME OF TROUBLES they were to face fir 1260 days.

Yes indeed, THE GREAT Church Age Tribulation as in 2000 is GREATER than 7, did you not read my post? You see, Jesus stated ALL TIME is Tribulation on this earth (John 16:33). So, the Church age is indeed Tribulation, as stated by Jesus/God. And 2000 years is greater than 7 as in 2000>7 this is not that difficult to comprehend, even if you have been condition (as I once believed also, erroneously) to think of the great tribulation as being only one end time description, no, Tribulation is ALL TIME, so if the Church Age Trib is GREATER in length than the 70th week than God can indeed describe it as THE GREAT TRIB those people came out of. Whether you or others can grasp that is not relevant to what God is saying in this situation tbh. God says what He says. We know this is the Pre Trib Raptured Church because those who die during the 70th week are MIT RAISED until after the 2nd Coming as shown in Rev 20:4,and we know Jesus told those Martyrs they MUST WAIT in vengeance until all the brothers were killed (meaning until the Beasts 42 month rule was finished). So, it doesn't matter what FITS..... your understanding of the Great Tribulation is all that matters, event though it will not fit !!

And THE can and in this instance does mean THE Church Age Tribulation. See my point, I don't deny THE is an article speaking about a certain tribulation, but it goes right past you that this CERTAIN GREAT TRIBULATION PERIOD doesn't have to be the most SEVERE EVER TROUBLES, but can indeed also be the GREATEST EVER LENGTH of troubles, you pigeon hole God's vocabulary unto how you think and see it, that doesn't work brother. I am not trying to be overtly critical, you trying to get you to step back and look at the 10,000 foot view here. Lets take Dan. 7:11 and Rev. 19:20, is God lying in one of those verses are just like the GREAT TRIBULATION VERSE do we misconstrue it? 

Dan. 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Rev. 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

So, is God lying, or do men MISCONSTRUE and MISTRANSLATE and MISUNDERSTAND things? I go with the later.

The Anti-Christ is actually KILLED and then he is cast into hell. Do you know how I get that from these 2 verses? I weigh them against OTHER SCRIPTURES just like I am doing above with the Rev. 6 verse that shows the 5th Seal Martyrs and the Rev. 20:4 Judgments TIMING. But in this instance, I understand that the holy word of God says that ALL MEN must die, then the judgment comes, and I understand that God states via Paul that men's souls SLEEP until the Rapture.... "51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed," thus I know that in Rev. 19:20 God/Jesus is indeed going to kill the Anti-Christ and False Prophet, but then he is going to cast them ALIVE (they do not get to rest until the 2nd Resurrection like everyone else) into hell, but Satan and his evil minions and those wicked men who died in their wickedness, will all be cast into hell after Jesus 1000 year reign. Where the Beast and False Prophet ARE !! So, all those who say the Anti-Christ NEVER DIES are in error. Likewise, we have to use scripture to iron out all supposed contradictions. The Great Tribulation those men from Rev. 7:9-17 are from CAN NOT be from the 70th week tribulation period, and thus they can ONLY BE from the Church Age Tribulation via the pre trib Rapture. We must be able to add all of these things up via ALL SCRIPTURES, Here a little, there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept. TBH, this is why so many people can't see the Pre Trib Rapture, it has to e put together via the scripture, sans Paul says I tell you a MYSTERY (Musterion or SECRET by God's Silence.......TO SHUT THE MOUTH). 

So, as a guy who has a blog teaching about the "Article" in 2 Thess. 2:1-3 proving the DEPARTURE is pointing to a SPECFIC DEPARURE spoken of in verse 1 (the Gathering unto Jesus Christ) I clearly understand the point about THE ARTICLE. But I also understand that changes nothing, that Article (THE) can  also be pointing at THE 2000 year Church Age Tribulation Period. And in this case it is, only in our minds to we think we can we can limit God's vocabulary. I hope you catch the point brother, like I stated, I believed the same thing for 30 years. But the TIMIING never fit, so I knew something was off.

Now, at the same time, I prefer to place the words as they were written, why should we trust aversion that ADDS in the word THE which was not even there according to my Greek into English Transliteration version?

Reulation 7:14 And 2532 I said 2046 z5758 vnto him, 846 Sir, 2962 thou 4771 knowest. 1492 z5758 And 2532 he said 2036 z5627 to me, 3427 These 3778 are x1526 they y1526 z5748 which came 2064 z5740 out of 1537 great 3173 tribulation, 2347 and 2532 haue washed 4150 z5656 their y846 x848 robes, 4749 and 2532 made y3021 z0 them y4749 y846 white 3021 z5656 x848 in 1722 the x3588 blood 129 of the x3588 Lambe. 721

 #3173 μέγας megas {meg'-as} (Great)

 [including the prolonged forms, feminine megale, plural megaloi,
    etc., cf also G3176, G3187]; TDNT - 4:529,573; adj
—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) great
    1a) of the external form or sensible appearance of things (or
        of persons)
        1a1) in particular, of space and its dimensions, as respects
             1a1a) mass and weight: great
             1a1b) compass and extent: large, spacious
             1a1c) measure and height: long
             1a1d) stature and age: great, old
    1b) of number and quantity: numerous, large, abundant
    1c) of age: the elder
    1d) used of intensity and its degrees: with great effort, of
        the affections and emotions of the mind, of natural events
        powerfully affecting the senses: violent, mighty, strong
 2) predicated of rank, as belonging to

--------------------------------------------------

 #2347 θλῖψις thlipsis {thlip'-sis} (Tribulation)

 from G2346; TDNT - 3:139,334; n f
—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

 1) a pressing, pressing together, pressure
 2) metaph. oppression, affliction, tribulation, distress, straits
—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
From G2346; pressure (literally or figuratively):—afflicted, (-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.
—Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)
-------------------------------------------------

As the Greek Study says, it can be a measurement of both LENGTH and INTENSISTY OF DEGREES !! We demand it can only be the intensity of degrees version. When that does not fit the description !! They came of of the 2000 year Church Age Period via a Pre Trib Rapture, we now this because I understand or, PLUS because those Martyrs under the Altar are SPECIFICALLY TOLD they must wait until all of their brothers have been killed in LIKE MANNER as they were (Martyrs) and in Rev; 20:4 we see that those who refused the Mark of the Beast are not raised and Judged until AFTER the 2nd Coming. 

It is not there, and it would not matter if it were. 

Yes, there is a Greatest Ever Troubles, but those who are seen in Heaven did not nor can not, come out of THAT TRIBUULSTION PERIOD. They came out of the Church Age Tribulation Period. But if you understood the Pre Trib Rapture, (maybe you do for all I know) this would or should come easy for you.

No, they came out of THE Church Age Tribulation. Even though THE is not in the passage. 

So, you do understand the Pre Trib Rapture, but then you miss the very thing that PROVES the Pre Trib Rapture, because in your mind all you can see is GREAT meaning SEVERITY, even though the 5th Seal and Rev. 20:4 proves those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 can not come from the 7th week. You are doing exactly what I used to do, warping things that don't really fit. All because GREAT can only describe one time, when in fact God can use GREAT in many, many different ways to describe many different things. In your MIND it can only mean ONE THING so you have boxed yourself into a corner brother.

God Bless....this HELPS out the Pre Trib Rapture, it doesn't hurt our case. And its also factual. End Time Eschatology has been my calling for 37 years. Nothing in the book of Revelation stumps me. 

Thank you for your lengthy reply. I appreciate the time it took. Your main objection seems to me to be that the whole Church age is one vast Tribulation, but with varying severities. I agree. The Church is hated and persecuted and will be the target of men's wrath until our Lord Jesus returns. But when scripture say that immediately after the Abomination of Desolation that Daniel predicts ther will be a time like never before and never again, then it speaks of one event of noteworthy tribulation. It even goes further to say that if God did not shorten it, even the elect would not survive it. This then is a UNIQUE, ONE-OFF, NOTEWORTHY Tribulation, mch greater in severity than even the flood of Noah's time where only 8 people survived.

Whereas John 16 says that we will have tribulation in the world, Revelation 7 says that this innumerable company from all nations go through THE Great Tribulation. The article makes it unique. And if this great company from all nations, tribes and tongues have white robes washed in the blood of Jesus, go to meet Him with palm fronds, and have Him as their Shepherd, go through THE Great Tribulation, then there was either (i) NO RAPTURE, or (ii) There was a Pre-Tribulation rapture BUT THEY WERE NOT "TAKEN".

This is what seems to happen. In ...

Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for YE know not what hour YOUR Lord doth come

Notice verse 42. The "TWO" are both Christians because "YE" is used, and the "YE" have Christ has "THEIR" Lord. That means that SOME Christians will be LEFT BEHIND, and SOME will be "TAKEN". The Greek word rendered "TAKEN" means "taken along like a well.known companion".

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Notice that to "ESCAPE" one must be "counted worthy". That is, faith is not enough. You have to EARN this escape. Note also WHERE the escape is. It is to "stand before the Son of man". Since Matthew 24 says that Jesus only comes AFTER the Great Tribulation, to "stand" means you are alive, and the Son of man is in the clouds - above the earth. So Luke 21:36 shows the escape BEFORE the Great Tribulation by rapture - BUT ONLY FOR A WORTHY FEW!

In Philippians 3:13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; ...

Again I use the New King James because it is still literal but the problems of the 1611 AV are removed. In verse 14 it is NOT "the high calling". It is literally "THE CALLING ON HIGH", or, as the NKJV says, "the UPWARD CALL". Notice again that Paul must "PRESS" toward a GOAL because it is a "PRIZE"! The UPWARD CALL - the Rapture is only for the MATURE says verse 15, and is a GOAL or PRIZE.

Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth

Notice that this escape is CONDITIONAL. It is "BECAUSE the saints did something". And HOW do they escape??? By NOT BEING THERE AT THE TIME of the Trial. Christ promises to keep them from the HOUR in which the trial takes place. They just won't be there at this terrible TIME.

The proof is overwhelming. There is Tribulation in the world for Christians. But God has designed ONE GREAT TRIBULATION that could kill all men if it was not shortened. This Tribulation can be avoided by being a good, diligent, watchful, prayerful lover of Jesus. the rest of the apostate Christians will, as Revelation 7 says, go through THE Great Tribulation with heat, fear, thirst and suffering.

[Revelation Man]

On 6/7/2022 at 4:31 PM, AdHoc said:

Thank you for your lengthy reply. I appreciate the time it took. Your main objection seems to me to be that the whole Church age is one vast Tribulation, but with varying severities. I agree. The Church is hated and persecuted and will be the target of men's wrath until our Lord Jesus returns. But when scripture say that immediately after the Abomination of Desolation that Daniel predicts ther will be a time like never before and never again, then it speaks of one event of noteworthy tribulation.

But you are still MISSING IT. Those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 CAN NOT come out of the 70th week, Jesus SPECIFICALLY SAYS THIS !! He tells the Martyrs under the Altar in the 5th Seal they MUST WAIT in order to get justice and/or vengeance. Then in Rev. 20:4 we see all those who refused the Mark of the Beast and DIED (this can only be true during the 70th week) get judged at that time, which is AFTER the 2nd Coming, so how were they seen in Heaven in Rev. 7:9-17 ? This is affirming the Pre Trib Rapture which you seem to believe in, but just like the Dan. 7:11 and Rev. 19:20 verses, you are having trouble getting past a bad translation, or in this case a MISCONCEPTION that Great as in  MEGA can only mean Greatest Ever Severity of Troubles, you cant see that John's Great/Mega here means the 2000 some odd year Church Age which was the MEGA/Largest time period of tribulation. I don't understand the disconnect of the mind in this case tbh. 

1.) It CAN NOT be any person from the 70th week.

2.) 2000 is GREATER than 7. 

Its you and others that insist he's speaking about the end time troubles of Jacob, he's not, the Rapture souls seen in Heaven NEVER go through the 70th week troubles, so why would it be referring to them? Psstt, NO ONE from the 70th week will be allowed into Heaven, they do not even get to go to heaven AFTER the 2nd Coming, they live on earth with Jesus for 1000 years. You are simply not putting it together because in your mind (as was my case) you have trained it to only see the 3.5 years as GREAT, nothing else can be MEGA, not even 2000 years is MEGA vs. 7 years or 3.5. So, which is GREATER out of these three? 2000............7..............3.5?  The 2000 of course is GREATER........They came out of the GREAT TRIBULATION, as in the 2000 year Church Age. And beside, it doesn't say THE. It says Great Tribulation. So, what part of the Marriage being SHUT UP and the door being CLOSED do you not get here brother. No one from the 70th week is going to make the marriage in Heaven, that is why Jesus said there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. They MUST ENDURE this time of troubles, even if they get saved and love Jesus, there will then be GREAT TROUBLE for them, that is why there is gnashing of teeth. No one is saying there will not be a GREATEST EVER TIME of Troubles that last for 1260 days, just that we can't mandate that God can only use Great to describe ONE THING, the word is MEGA, and 2000 is MEGA over 7. It can and has been used to describe the LONGER PERIOD in this case. We have to add up all the facts. 

On 6/7/2022 at 4:31 PM, AdHoc said:

It even goes further to say that if God did not shorten it, even the elect would not survive it.

Another MISCONSTRUED NOTION, unless you understand why its a bad understanding by some. The 70th week will be 7 Years, the time IS NOT SHORTENED. The 7 Year plan by Jesus/God...........(WAIT FOR IT)..........Shortens the Anti-Christs lifespan, which would have been LONGER of not for God foreseeing that his 1260 day rule was the MAX he could be allowed to rule. Jesus/God do not have to SHORTEN their original plan brother, that is another misconception. The 7 years and the 3.5 years are PRE -PLANNED by God, thus He has planned perfectly to KILL the Anti-Christ and take back Dominion BEFORE the A.C. can destroy the whole world and all life on this earth. That is what it means. God's 1260 days of Wrath, and the Beasts 1260 day rule overlap exactly. That will not be shortened. It was SHORTENED by God in His plans, even when Jesus (Man in Linen) spoke to Daniel about this in Daniel 12 he stated it would only last for 1260 days. So, in Matt. 24 Jesus is explaining WHY its only 1260 days, and why THE PLAN was instituted s such.

On 6/7/2022 at 4:31 PM, AdHoc said:

This then is a UNIQUE, ONE-OFF, NOTEWORTHY Tribulation, mch greater in severity than even the flood of Noah's time where only 8 people survived.

It is not the tribulation those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 came out of, and it can not be according to END TIME EVENTS.

On 6/7/2022 at 4:31 PM, AdHoc said:

Whereas John 16 says that we will have tribulation in the world, Revelation 7 says that this innumerable company from all nations go through THE Great Tribulation.

You can't let it go can you? Jesus told the Pharisees the reason they could not see who he was, was because of their Men's Traditions. You can't add this up because you have always believed the Great Tribulation can ONLY MEAN the 3.5 years, no matter what the scriptures say. Those who get to the 70th week will not ever be seen in Heaven until after the New Jerusalem descends. Here is how tricky Satan is, even though you actually understand the Pre Trib Rapture and this understanding CONFIRMS the Pre Trib Rapture, you will still argue against something which ACCTUALLY  CONFIRMS your position on the matter !!

As a guy called unto End Time Eschatology for 37 years and as a guy that understands it, and all of the book of Revelation, I am telling you those seen in Rev. 7 can only be the Pre Trib Raptured Church. Psstt, we see them in Rev. 4:4 and Rev. 5:9-10 BEFORE the Seals are ever opened. Did you know the Seals DO NOTHING? God's Wrath only starts when the Trumps come, in Rev. 8, the Seals are only Jesus Prophesying what is about to come when God's Judgments finally falls via the 7 Trumps.  

And by the way, there is NO ARTICLE, you mean the article the English Translators ADDED. Thus as the original Greek says, the Raptured Church came out of Great Tribulation.  Not THE Great Tribulation. They can not be from the 70th week. 

On 6/7/2022 at 4:31 PM, AdHoc said:

And if this great company from all nations, tribes and tongues have white robes washed in the blood of Jesus, go to meet Him with palm fronds, and have Him as their Shepherd, go through THE Great Tribulation, then there was either (i) NO RAPTURE, or (ii) There was a Pre-Tribulation rapture BUT THEY WERE NOT "TAKEN".

Nope, the Matthew verse means they were indeed not taken, but the ones seen in Rev. 7 WERE TAKEN. We can see them in Rev. 4:4 and in Rev. 5:9-10. Its speaks of MANY NATIONS there also. What part of no one from the 70th week is going to make the Wedding (The DOOR is shut) do you not understand brother? You are indeed letting a preconceived understanding (MENS TRADITION) block your perception here. Quit fighting a point that gives your pre trib understanding the VICTORY STAMP !!

On 6/7/2022 at 4:31 PM, AdHoc said:

Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for YE know not what hour YOUR Lord doth come

Notice verse 42. The "TWO" are both Christians because "YE" is used, and the "YE" have Christ has "THEIR" Lord. That means that SOME Christians will be LEFT BEHIND, and SOME will be "TAKEN". The Greek word rendered "TAKEN" means "taken along like a well.known companion".

Yes, ONE is taken and ONE is left. The ones TAKEN are seen in Heaven in Rev. 7:9-17, the ones LEFT will only make Heaven if they Repent, and then (more than likely) become Martyrs for Jesus, but THEN they only get raised AFTER Jesus' 2nd Coming, no one goes to the Wedding after the door is SHUT brother !! They MUST WAIT under the Altar until all of their other brothers have been killed in like manner (which translates, until the Beasts 42 month reign of terror is over).

Those FAKE CHRISTIANS who do not have the Holy Spirit abiding in them, thus only 5 of the 10 virgins are taken. The number 10 means COMPLETION. They are not ALL FEMALE either, that is why I say the 144,000 is also just a CODE WORD for ALL Israel who repent, God just used a better or different code.

As in 12 (Fulness) x 12 x 10 (Completion) x 10 x 10 = 144,000 "MALE VIRGINS" which means ALL, Israel who repent. Those 144,000 and THE WOMAN of Rev. 12 both are the end time Jews who repent (3-5 million Jews seen in Zechariah 13:8-9) fleeing from Judea inro the Mountainous area of South/Central Jordan (Petra/Bozrah).

So, we agree, Matt. 24:36-51 is indeed about the Raptured Church. But your OVERALL PERCEPTION is still off.

On 6/7/2022 at 4:31 PM, AdHoc said:

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Notice that to "ESCAPE" one must be "counted worthy". That is, faith is not enough. You have to EARN this escape. Note also WHERE the escape is. It is to "stand before the Son of man". Since Matthew 24 says that Jesus only comes AFTER the Great Tribulation, to "stand" means you are alive, and the Son of man is in the clouds - above the earth. So Luke 21:36 shows the escape BEFORE the Great Tribulation by rapture - BUT ONLY FOR A WORTHY FEW!

The Fig Tree Parable starts in Luke 21:29, that is about Israel being in the 70th week troubles brother. That is why Jesus said THAT GENERATION (of Jews, who sees the Sun and Moon go dark) will not pass until Jesus returns, not to Rapture them, but to usher in The Kingdom that was promised to come. Jesus' Kingdom on David's Throne, Amen. So, indeed, those in that time will have to REPENT and then FLEE Judea. We agree, but they are not seen in Heaven in Rev. 7, they help repopulate the Kingdom Age on this earth. 

On 6/7/2022 at 4:31 PM, AdHoc said:

In Philippians 3:13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; ...

Again I use the New King James because it is still literal but the problems of the 1611 AV are removed. In verse 14 it is NOT "the high calling". It is literally "THE CALLING ON HIGH", or, as the NKJV says, "the UPWARD CALL". Notice again that Paul must "PRESS" toward a GOAL because it is a "PRIZE"! The UPWARD CALL - the Rapture is only for the MATURE says verse 15, and is a GOAL or PRIZE.

Better to use a bible most true to the original rendition. I trust NONE of the translations in full, I look up all the original Greek and Hebrew verses for context tbh. I agree, we must ENDURE until the end, that is what Jesus meant in Matt. 24:12-13, one must keep the FAITH until the end of ones life. But that is a given. It has nothing to do with those seen in Rev. 7:9-17.

On 6/7/2022 at 4:31 PM, AdHoc said:

Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth

Notice that this escape is CONDITIONAL. It is "BECAUSE the saints did something". And HOW do they escape??? By NOT BEING THERE AT THE TIME of the Trial. Christ promises to keep them from the HOUR in which the trial takes place. They just won't be there at this terrible TIME.

The proof is overwhelming. There is Tribulation in the world for Christians. But God has designed ONE GREAT TRIBULATION that could kill all men if it was not shortened. This Tribulation can be avoided by being a good, diligent, watchful, prayerful lover of Jesus. the rest of the apostate Christians will, as Revelation 7 says, go through THE Great Tribulation with heat, fear, thirst and suffering.

Those PROMISES to the 7 Churches who OVERCOME can be seen in Rev. 4:4, they are at God's THRONE (Rev. 3:21) they have on WHITE ROBES (Rev. 3:5) and they have on CROWNS of Gold (Rev. 2:10, the Crown of Life promise). 

Those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 CAN NOT come out of the 70th week, NO ONE gets into the wedding after the doors are CLOSED SHUT, period. ONE WORD........Great........has you chasing your tail like a lion in circles in this instance brother. Get past it. God Bless.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Revelation Man

[AdHoc]

56 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

But you are still MISSING IT. Those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 CAN NOT come out of the 70th week, Jesus SPECIFICALLY SAYS THIS !! He tells the Martyrs under the Altar in the 5th Seal they MUST WAIT in order to get justice and/or vengeance. Then in Rev. 20:4 we see all those who refused the Mark of the Beast and DIED (this can only be true during the 70th week) get judged at tat time, which is AFTER the 2nd Coming, so how were they seen in Heaven in Rev. 7:9-17 ? This is affirming the Pre Trib Rapture which yo believe in, but just like the Dan. 7:11 and Rev. 19:20 verses, you are having trouble getting past a bad translation, or in this case a MISCOCEPTION that Great as in  MEGA can only mean Greatest Ever Severity of Troubles, you cant see that John Great/Mega here means the 200 some odd year Church Age which was the MEGA/Largest time period of tribulation. I dont understand the disconnect of the mind in this case. 

1.) It CAN NOT be any person from the 70th week.

2.) 2000 is GREATER than 7. 

Its you and others tat insist hes speaking about the end time troubles of Jacob, hes not, the Rapture souls seen in Heaven NEVER go through the 70th week troubles, so why would it e referring to them? Psstt, NO ONE from the 70th week will be allowed into Heaven, they do not even get to go to heaven AFTER the 2nd Coming, they live on earth with Jesus for 1000 years. You are simply not putting it together because in your mind (as was my case) you have trained it to only see the 3.5 years as GREAT, nothing else can be MEGA, not even 2000 years is MEGA vs. 7 years or 3.5. So, which is GREATER out of these three? 2000............7..............3.5?  GREATER........They came out f the GREAT TRIBULATION, as in the 2000 year Church Age. And beside, it d9esnt say THE. It says Great Tribulation. So, what part of the Marriage being SHUT UP and the door being CLOSED do you not get here brother. No one from the 70th week is going to make the marriage in Heaven, that is why Jesus said there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. They MUST ENDURE this time of troubles, even if they get saved and love Jesus, there will then be GREAT TROUBLE for them, that is why there is gnashing of teeth. No one is saying there will not be a GREATEST EVER TIME of Troubles that last for 1260 days, just that we can't mandate that Gd can only use Great to describe ONE THING, the word is MEGA, and 2000 is MEGA over 7. It can and has been use to describe the LONGER PERIOD in this case. We have to add up all the facts. 

Another MISCONSTRUED NOTION, unless you understand why its a bad understanding by some. The 70t week will be 7 Years, the tie IS NOT SHORTENED. The 7 Year plan by Jesus/God...........(WAIT FOR IT)..........Shortens the Anti-Christs lifespan, which would have been LONGER of not for God foreseeing that his 1260 day rule was the MAX he could be allowed to rule. Jesus/Gid do nit have to SHORTEN their original plan brother, that is another misconception. The 7 years and the 3.5 years are PRE -PLANNED by God, thus He has planned perfectly to KILL the Anti-Christ and take back Dominion BEFORE the A.C. can destroy the whole world and all life. That is what it means. God's 1260 days of Wrath, and the Beasts 1260 day rule overlap exactly. That will not be shortened. It was SHORTENED by God in His plans, even when Jesus (Man in Linen) spoke to Daniel about this in Daniel 12 he stated it would only last for 1260 days.

It not the tribulation those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 came out of, and it can not be according to END TIME EVENTS.

You can't let it go can you? Jesus told the Pharisees the reason they could not see who he was, was because of their Men's Traditions. You can't add this up because you have always believed the Great Tribulation can ONLY MEAN the 3.5 years, no matter what the scriptures say. Those who get to the 70th week will not ever be seen in Heaven until after the New Jerusalem descends. Here is how tricky Satan is, even though you actually understand the Pre Trib Wrath and this CONFIRMS the Pre Trib Wrath, you will still argue against something which ACCTUALLY  CONFIRMS your position on the matter !!

As a guy called unto End Time Eschatology for 37 years and as a guy that understands it, and all of the book of Revelation, I am telling you those seen in Rev. 7 can inly be the Pre Trib Raptured Church. Psstt, we see them in Rev. 4:4 and Rev. 5:9-10 BEFORE the Seals are ever opened. Did you know the Seals DO NOTHING? God's Wrath only starts when the Trumps come, in Rev. 8, the Seals are only Jesus Prophesying what is about to come when God's Judgments finally fall.  

And by the way, there is NO ARTICLE, you mean the article the English Translators ADDED. Thus as the original Greek says, the Raptured Church came out of Great Tribulation.  Not THE Great Tribulation. They can not be from the 70th week. 

Nope, the Matthew verse means they were indeed not taken, bit the one seen in Rev. 7 WERE TAKEN. We can see them in Rev. 4:4 and in Rev. 5:9-10. Its speaks of MANY NATIONS there also. What part of no one from the 70th week is going to make the Wedding (The DOOR is shut) do you not understand brother? You are indeed letting a preconceived understanding (MENS TRADITION) block your perception here. Quit fighting a point that gives your pre trib understanding the VICTOR STAMP !!

Yes, ONE is taken and ONE is left. The ones TAKEN are seen in Heaven in Rev. 7:9-17, the ones LEFT will only make Heaven if they Repent, and then (more than likely) become Martyrs for Jesus,, but THEN they only get raised AFTER Jesus' 2nd Coming, no one goes to the Wedding after the door is SHUT brother !! They MUST WAIT under the Altar until all of their other brothers have been killed in like manner (which translates, until the Beasts 42 month reign of terror is over).

Those FAKE CHRISTIANS who do not have the Holy Spirit abiding in them, thus only 5 of the 10 virgins are taken. The number 10 means COMPLETION. They are not ALL FEMALE either, that is why I say the 144,000 is also just a CODE WORD for ALL Israel who repent, God just used a better code.

As in 12 (Fulness) x 12 x 10 (completion) x 10 x 10 = 144,000 "MALE VIRGINS" which means ALL, Israel who repent. Those 144,000 and THE WOMAN of Rev. 12 both are the end time Jews who repent (3-5 million Jews) fleeing from Judea inro the Mountainous area of Central and Southern Jordan (Petra/Bozrah).

So, we agree, Matt. 24:36-51 is indeed about the Raptured Church. But your OVERALL PERCEPTION is still off.

The Fig Tree Parable starts in Like 21:29, that is about Israel being in the 70th week troubles brother. That is why Jesus said THAT GENERATION (who sees the Sun and Moon go dark) will not pass until Jesus returns, nit to Rapture them, but to user in The Kingdom that was promised to come. Jesus' Kingdom on David's Throne, Amen. So, indeed, those in that time will have to REPENT and then FLEE Judea.

Better to use a bible most true to the original rendition. I trust NONE of the translations in full, I look up all the original Greek and Hebrew verses for context tbh. I agree, we must ENDURE until the end, that is what Jesus meant in Matt. 24:12-13, one must keep the FAITH until the end of ones life. But that is a given. It has nothing to do with those seen in Rev. 7:9-17.

Those PROMISES to the 7 Churches who OVERCOME can be seen in Rev. 4:4, they are at God's THRONE (Rev. 3:21) they have on WHITE ROBES (Rev. 3:5) and they have on CROWNS of Gold (Rev. 2:10, the Crown of Life promise). 

Those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 CAN NOT come out of the 70th week, NO ONE gets into the wedding after the doors are CLOSED SHUT, period. ONE WORD........Great........has you chasing your tail like a lion in this instance brother. Get past it. God Bless.

 

Thank you for your reply. I think it is time for the interested reader to judge. I thank you for the exchange of ideas.

[AdHoc]

On 6/6/2022 at 7:16 PM, not an echo said:

Hello all,

There has been much discussion over what John recorded in Revelation 7:9-17, which is part of his account of what he saw after the Lamb's opening of the 6th Seal in Revelation 6:12-17.  When it is considered what Jesus said in His Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24:29-30, it is not difficult to make the prophetic puzzle piece connection of His words there with what John saw concerning the opening of the 6th Seal.  Also, if what Jesus said in the next verse of this Matthew reference (vs. 31) is of the rapture, it is not difficult to make the prophetic puzzle piece connection of this with what John saw concerning the "great multitude" of Revelation 7:9-17.  Moreover, when it comes to questions over the sequence of last day's events, it is not difficult to see what one might conclude as a result of it being said of this great multitude that "These are they which came out of great tribulation" (vs. 14).  But, there is much disagreement over the "great multitude" that John here sees and the "great tribulation" that is here spoken of.  Borrowing a little from the questions one of the elder's asked John in verse 13, "What is this 'great multitude' that John here sees, and what is this 'great tribulation' here spoken of?"  A popular reasoning is that the great tribulation here spoken of is in reference to the Seven Year Tribulation Period, or Daniel's 70th Week.  And, if so, this would seem to indicate (at least on the surface) that the great multitude---if this be the Church---will go through this period.  Hence, some support for the post-trib rapture position.  On the other hand, many who hold to the common pre-trib rapture position put forth that this great multitude is not a reference to the Church at all, but to those who will be saved during the aforementioned seven year period of Daniel's 70th Week.  And, there are other common understandings.  The purpose of this thread will be to examine these questions, to consider the merits of a another interpretation, and to hopefully help towards reconciling some differences of opinion on what the truth is of what John saw.

The well known phrase, "The Seven Year Tribulation Period" is also commonly referred to as "The Great Tribulation."  Some use this phrase in reference to the whole seven years of this period, some, in reference to only the last 3-1/2 years.  Note that the "the" preceding the words "great tribulation" is not found in the King James Version (KJV ) of Revelation 7:14 as it is in the later translations.  We will be looking at all of this further, but for now, it just needs to be acknowledged that there is a lot of difference between "great tribulation" and what has come to be called "THE Great Tribulation."

While my position is that the Church will not be subjected to any of the great tribulation of Daniel's 70th Week, is there any evidence in Scripture that it will not be subjected to great tribulation?  To the contrary, the early Church was warned to expect such (e.g., Acts 14:21-22 and I Pet. 4:12-13), and did, and the evidence of history is that such has been the case throughout the era of the Church.  How much greater would the tribulation have to be in the days that Christians were fed to lions or burned at the stake for such to be regarded as great tribulation?  In our country, the Church may not presently be subjected to such great tribulation (relatively speaking), but such is and has been the case with the Church from a worldwide perspective since the days of the apostles.

Consider:  From a worldwide and historical perspective, could it be said of those who are a part of Christ's Church when gathered together in glory, "These are they which came out of great tribulation"?  I believe so!  However, while the Church has experienced great tribulation, it will not experience any of Daniel's 70th Week.  If the great multitude in Revelation 7:14 is indeed the Church, this is why it is seen in Heaven, just before the opening of the 7th Seal.  It is not until this last seal is opened (which can happen the same day) that things will begin to come together for Daniel's 70th Week.  Furthermore, what is up ahead will be the time of Israel's trouble, referred to in Jeremiah 30:7 as "Jacob's Trouble."  This was never intended to be the time of the Church's trouble.  The Church will escape, or be delivered from this time.

Digging deeper, the words "great tribulation" are translated from the Greek words megas  and thlipsis  respectively.  Almost as often, thlipsis  is translated "trouble" or "affliction."  Paul used the word thlipsis  in II Corinthians 1:8 to describe what he and Timothy went through in Asia, saying also, "we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life."  Stephen used the words, megas thlipsis, translated "great affliction",  when he described what the land of Egypt and Canaan went through in the days that Joseph was governor in Egypt and his family came to him for corn (Acts 7:11ff ).  These same words are also used in a warning given to the church in Thyatira (Rev. 2:22).  The point is, there is a major difference between going through great tribulation and going through Daniel's 70th Week, or that time so many refer to as "The Great Tribulation."  Thus, it is clear scripturally that great tribulation doesn't necessarily mean Daniel's 70th Week.  For more on this, consider my thread, Tribulation, Great Tribulation, and Daniel's 70th Week (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/269079-tribulation-great-tribulation-and-daniels-70th-week/).

To sum things up so far, when the words "great tribulation" from Revelation 7:14 (as they occur in the KJV) are understood to be in reference to what the Church as a whole has experienced since the time that Christ founded it, it is much easier to recognize this great multitude that John saw as being the Church, which has finally "came out of" what it has so long been through.

While the preceding might cover the question before us to the satisfaction of some, for a fair treatment, we must focus further on that little "the" mentioned earlier.  This definite article is found preceding the words "great tribulation" in most of the translations published since the KJV.  A difference such as this is sometimes the result of the use of a different manuscript by the translators.  In the case of the "the" in question here, the manuscripts upon which other translations are based show this article, as does the Textus Receptus, upon which the KJV is based.  Just why this "the" is not found in the KJV would be difficult to ascertain.  The work of interpretation and translation of languages is a very complex undertaking.  Whatever the reason, this might appear to be something that would affect the interpretation I put forth.  But, there is more to this passage than the "the".

In an effort to more fully address the above concerns, let's just concede the definite article for a moment.  Let's turn our attention to another portion of the verse in question as rendered by the translations that do include it.  For example, at least three modern day translations read thus:  "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation" (New International, Amplified, and Revised Standard versions).  Noting the words in bold, and using the reader as an example, what criteria would have to be met for it to be said that you have "come out of" something?  The most natural response might be that you would have to be in it to come out of it, but there are other factors.  Like, how long would you have to be in something before it could be truthfully said that you have come out of it?  Also, realize that you can come out of something in the sense of having gone through it, or you can come out of something in the sense of having escaped it.  I'm really not trying to split hairs here.  I'm really just trying to get down to the nitty-gritty of what this passage can mean.  Will you help me?

For a moment, picture yourself sitting in the coffee shop on the ground floor of the North Tower of the World Trade Center on the morning of September 11, 2001.  You are sipping on your first cup of coffee for the day with some of your co-workers when all of a sudden there is this strange noise, and you feel a shaking sensation.  "What was that?" you exclaim!  Someone remarks that it might have been an earthquake.  There is a stir of curiosity.  In another second, an alarm goes off.  Next thing you know, someone is running by screaming something about an explosion happening in the top of the tower.  Near an exit, you rush outside where everyone is looking up, and you pick out something being said about a jet airliner crashing into the tower.  You keep backing up, looking up, completely awestruck that such a catastrophe is unfolding right before your very eyes.  Everything is in a complete frenzy, debris is falling all around, and there is a great plume of smoke bellowing into the sky.  Everyone is scrambling to get out of the building and from harm's way, and you end up one of the fortunate ones.  When the day is done, you end up being in the number of those who have come out of the great disaster in New York.  And, in what sense have you come out of it?  In the sense of having escaped it.  No one will deny you that!

The position of the interpretation I put forth concerning our present focus is similar to the preceding narrative.  With the Church being raptured after the opening of the 6th Seal, the day this seal is opened could begin something like the following, using the reader (if saved) and a lost spouse as an example:

On a Monday morning at about 1:28 a.m. CST (remember, this is just an example!), Christ, "The Lamb",  opens the 6th Seal and leaves the portals of glory to make a sign appearance and for the gathering of the Church.  Concurrent with this, you are startled awake by a great earthquake.  Next thing you know, WHEW!  UP YOU GO!, RIGHT THROUGH YOUR BEDROOM CEILING AS IF IT ISN'T EVEN THERE!, AND WHEW!!!  "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,"  you are one in a great multitude that has just been caught up by the angels "to meet the Lord in the air."  You are in the number of those who have just been raptured, or gathered by the angels.  Startled awake at the same time you were, but missing your departure, your spouse is absolutely perplexed and fear struck.  Everything in the house is rattling, as if everything is coming apart at the seams.  Your spouse looks out the window and beholds that the moon looks red as blood.  Meanwhile, on the other side of the earth, the sun looks black as sackcloth made of hair.  Suddenly, what looks like a falling star streaks through the sky, and then another one, and another one, and then, and then---the sky does something really weird, as if it is a giant scroll rolling together, infolding itself.

Now stay with me.  After you are safely with Christ, a lot more will happen that same minute, hour, and day, much the same as a lot more happened that September day after the first occupants of the North Tower made it safely away.  Keeping within the time perimeters that Scripture affords, the day the 6th Seal is opened and the rapture occurs, things could progress through the sounding of the 4th Trumpet before that day is done.  Don't dismiss this possibility too quickly.  There is no time frame given during this time that prevents such an understanding.  When this is understood, and everything after the rapture is considered to be associated with the great tribulation, it can truthfully be said that you have "come out of the great tribulation" in the sense of having escaped it.  From your spouse's perspective, you will have just escaped the great tribulation that he or she has been "left" (Matt. 24:40-41) to face.  With this in mind, notice afresh the following two verses, which reflect your state:

The first is from what John gives an account of in Revelation chapter seven, just after his account of the opening of the 6th Seal:

  9   After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, STOOD BEFORE THE THRONE, AND BEFORE THE LAMB, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The second is from Luke's account of Jesus' Olivet Discourse, in Luke 21:

 36  Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

And, what is it that Jesus is saying can be escaped?  This is reflected in the same chapter (and context) of Luke's account, beginning 11 verses prior:

 25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars;  and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity;  the sea and the waves roaring;

 26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth:  for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

What Luke here records of Jesus' words is like a paraphrase of what John writes concerning the 6th Seal.  With all the foregoing in mind, I now invite you to turn in your Bible and read again John's account of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-17) and of the great multitude he beheld in the very next chapter (Rev. 7:9-17).  Then, conclude for yourself how the Spirit and these scriptures speak to you.

I hope I have demonstrated fairly that there is more than one way to interpret the words "great tribulation" in Revelation 7:14.  My experience has been that every Scripture upon which a belief or doctrine might turn can be interpreted at least two ways---one right, one wrong.  Satan will see to that.  This particular passage is no different, except it has the added difficulty of the definite article "the" to reconcile.  Because of this, it could be said that there are at least four ways to interpret the passage in question---a right and a wrong way without regard for the definite article and a right and a wrong way with regard for the definite article.  So, what does one do?  One must look to and rely upon the rest of the body of the scriptures and seek for an understanding that will result in perfect harmony.  This is what I have here done.  Concerning the question before us, an interpretation has been submitted with regard to the words "great tribulation" and also with regard to the words "the great tribulation."  In consideration of other scriptural evidences, this means the "great tribulation" spoken of in Revelation 7:14 is either what the Church has so long been through or what the Church will have just escaped from.  Interestingly, either of these interpretations will support that the great multitude in Revelation 7:9-17 is the just resurrected and raptured Church.  Also, either harmonizes with the rest of the body of the scriptures.  Paul spoke against striving about words "to no profit" (II Tim. 2:14).  It is hoped that our having here strived about some words will be found to be of great profit.

Finally, while we have considered some very important things concerning the opening of the 6th Seal, to this point in our discussion, that mysterious Seven Sealed Book remains unopened.  The last seal is still intact.  But the resurrection and the rapture of the Church has occurred.  To those who believe the Bible teaches a pre-trib, or pre-Daniel's 70th Week gathering of the Church, just know this:  We who are a part of Christ's Church will be safely with Him on yonder shore before He opens the 7th Seal.  Further, within the bounds that Scripture affords, this last, or 7th Seal can be opened the same day the rapture occurs.  This helps to show that every seal on the outside of THE SEVEN SEALED BOOK relates entirely to the era of the Church---all seven seals.  And, every page on the inside of this book relates entirely to the Day of the Lord, which includes Daniel's 70th Week  and everything else this side of eternity---every single page.

This thread is one of many that I have started that relates to A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation that I have put forth.  Following is a link to my master thread by this same title, where I give 36 propositions relating to this interpretation and keep a running list of the threads I have started that relate to it (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).

Hello and welcome to your own thread.

Although some energetic argument has already take place, I would like to comment on some of your points.

Towards the middle of Matthew 24, our Lord predicted a special Tribulation that would start with Daniel's "Abomination of Desolation". Our Lord predicts that it will be much worse than anything before, so that would include Noah's Flood. Noah's flood lasted about a third of the time that this Tribulation will, yet only 8 people survived. What makes this one worse is that men who would normally commit suicide will not be able to, and must face the duration. What also contributes largely is that whereas Noah's Flood was a natural disaster, events after the Abomination of Desolation are partly supernatural. Whatever the agony, one thing can be laid to rest. God has indicated that there will be a single Tribulation that contains the "Wrath of God", the wrath of the Serpent/Dragon, the wrath of men and the wrath of the Great Whore, Babylon - a single unique, one-off , never-to-be-repeated Triblation encompassing the whole earth.

So whether or not the manuscript uses the word "THE great tribulation", there is a special, dedicated period in which things upon earth are markedly worse than ever before. The article "THE" could be legal and contextually used just on this alone. It is a special time for the earth like none other.

The question at hand is; Does Christ's salvation include avoiding the "wrath" that is to be poured out on the earth and its inhabitants, or does He teach that Christians must brace themselves for God's wrath as well. The answer to this quite simple. If you came across a burning freight car which had, in big letters on its side, "Danger Explosives", what would you do? Way back in the book of Numbers Chapter 16, the same dilemma faced Israel. Levite princes had followed an ambitious nobleman called Korah in an illegal challenge to Moses. God told Israel to "get back". The solution to imminent danger is "don't be found near the cause of this danger. There is a world system in place that provides for men. It provides political power, wealth, fame, physical satisfaction, possessions and security. It competes with God for the affections and loyalty of men. If you are anywhere near this system in word, deed, proximity and/or loyalty, you will be caught in the ensuing fire.

Christians do not like to hear this. taking our Lord's road of rejection, self-denial and suffering is unpalatable. The Lord knows this, so He sets before His Church a set of REWARDS. They are easy to find;

1. In Philippians 3 and Revelation 20 there is a special resurrection. If you belong to this group you will be rewarded by (i) a place in the Wedding Feast, and (ii) a crown - a position as co-king with Jesus when He returns
2. In Matthew 25 you will "enter the joy of the Lord" and have a place in the Wedding Feast
3. In Luke 21 you will be made a co-king with Christ
4. If you are alive at the time of the Great Tribulation, you will be removed from the scene and miss it

In my posting about #7 on page 1, I showed the scriptures with a short comment. I post them verbatim here. They are so plain and simple, but carry a profound message of danger and escape for the Christian.

17 hours ago, AdHoc said:

This is what seems to happen. In ...

Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for YE know not what hour YOUR Lord doth come

Notice verse 42. The "TWO" are both Christians because "YE" is used, and the "YE" have Christ has "THEIR" Lord. That means that SOME Christians will be LEFT BEHIND, and SOME will be "TAKEN". The Greek word rendered "TAKEN" means "taken along like a well.known companion".

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Notice that to "ESCAPE" one must be "counted worthy". That is, faith is not enough. You have to EARN this escape. Note also WHERE the escape is. It is to "stand before the Son of man". Since Matthew 24 says that Jesus only comes AFTER the Great Tribulation, to "stand" means you are alive, and the Son of man is in the clouds - above the earth. So Luke 21:36 shows the escape BEFORE the Great Tribulation by rapture - BUT ONLY FOR A WORTHY FEW!

In Philippians 3:13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; ...

Again I use the New King James because it is still literal but the problems of the 1611 AV are removed. In verse 14 it is NOT "the high calling". It is literally "THE CALLING ON HIGH", or, as the NKJV says, "the UPWARD CALL". Notice again that Paul must "PRESS" toward a GOAL because it is a "PRIZE"! The UPWARD CALL - the Rapture is only for the MATURE says verse 15, and is a GOAL or PRIZE.

Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth

Notice that this escape is CONDITIONAL. It is "BECAUSE the saints did something". And HOW do they escape??? By NOT BEING THERE AT THE TIME of the Trial. Christ promises to keep them from the HOUR in which the trial takes place. They just won't be there at this terrible TIME.

The proof is overwhelming. There is Tribulation in the world for Christians. But God has designed ONE GREAT TRIBULATION that could kill all men if it was not shortened. This Tribulation can be avoided by being a good, diligent, watchful, prayerful lover of Jesus. the rest of the apostate Christians will, as Revelation 7 says, go through THE Great Tribulation with heat, fear, thirst and suffering.

Thanks and go well brother