The "Great Multitude" and "Great Tribulation" of Revelation 7:9-17

[not an echo]

On 12/31/2022 at 4:49 AM, Diaste said:

On 12/31/2022 at 1:14 AM, not an echo said:

Trying to do a little year-end catching up!   I'm thankful for your "Correct" concerning all the great tribulation that has been experienced by Christians down through the ages.  At first, I was under the impression that you were finally making an acknowledgment of something that I have been pointing out. 

I'm simply acknowledging the facts. It's fact. It would be irrational of me to deny it.

Then, what in the world is it that you've had me on this merry-go-round for so long about?  Can we get off this thang and ride something else for a change?  I've been gittin' dizzy!

On 12/31/2022 at 4:49 AM, Diaste said:

On 12/31/2022 at 1:14 AM, not an echo said:

 

By this, I'm meaning the putting of emphasis on the words Jesus spoke that I have here put in bold, from Matthew 24...

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

I just don't understand how the above verse can be taken alone apart from it's origin. The first two words in v. 21 are, "For then..."; this is the same as, "After this..." or "Next...". So "such as was not nor will ever be" follows something.

That something is the A of D. 

It's not the 167 BC A of D since that happened before Jesus sat on the Mount of Olives and spoke the prophecy of the coming A of D.

Then it's a coming A of D that has not yet happened since to the time of Christ in the 1st century to this day.

I've got no problem at all with what you are saying here, as long as you don't ask me to get back on that---great tribulation equals Daniel's 70th Week and nothing else---merry-go-round again!

Do you like trains?!

[not an echo]

On 12/31/2022 at 5:27 AM, Diaste said:

On 12/31/2022 at 1:14 AM, not an echo said:

It seems that all the stir concerning the Church being delivered has always revolved around its being delivered from the seven years of Daniel's 70 Week.  But really, this doesn't quite capture what it is that the Church is truly being delivered from.  Really, it is the period of the last days' Day of the Lord judgment that the Church is being delivered from, which just so happens to include Daniel's 70th Week. 

I see. 

Well...if this Day of the Lord judgement includes all of the last week then it seems God is literally forcing the people of earth to worship a false god through the mark and the image. 

But doesn't the angel say not to take the mark? That the mark equals condemnation? So God makes people take the mark just so He can condemn then to eternal death? 

This would also mean God is placing the A of D, even installing the person who will blaspheme His name and profane His tabernacle. 

Worse, God would then be killing His own martyrs. 

How is the church delivered from this, when I'm sure you acknowledge there are many saved during this time after the church is gone, so they don't endure the judgement but others who are saved do endure the judgement? 

A bit topsy turvy.

What?  How are you getting all this?

On 12/31/2022 at 5:27 AM, Diaste said:

On 12/31/2022 at 1:14 AM, not an echo said:

It has never been God's desire to subject any of His children to the times of His judgment.  When I think of the "escape" Jesus speaks of in Luke 21:36, or what Paul speaks of in I Thessalonians 5:3, I don't really think so much of what all the 144,000 or those who refuse allegiance to the beast will face great tribulation wise.  More, I think of what will be faced by the unsaved world---God's judgment wise---if you will.

I'm sure you don't think about it. The great pretrib, or even 'a totally different pretrib', saving concept is, 'we are not appointed to wrath', except those same people who are our brothers will be appointed to wrath according to any flavor of pretrib dogma.

So two millennia of good Christian brothers can be brutally abused, the 'church' can be some how miraculously absent for a time when the same children of God are to endure what the 'church' will not?  

From topsy turvy to untrue.

Concerning your first paragraph, what Paul said in I Thessalonians 5:9 ("For God hath not appointed us to wrath...") he said to the "brethren" he was talking to, and by extension, all of us who are saved at the time that the gathering will occur.  Concerning those who are left, by the evidence of Scripture, they will enter the period of the last days' DOTL judgment, but we know that this does not mean there is no hope for them.  Of those left, 144,000 Jews will be saved at their seeing the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30) and their sudden realization that Jesus was their Messiah after all.  Of the rest who come to faith during this time, they will be saved and from Gods' judgment, but not from what they will face because of their rejection of the beast.

I'm sure it will be wondered how those who end up being saved after the rapture can be saved from God's judgment if they are still upon the earth during this time of His judgment.  My first thought is, can God control the tail of a tornado?  Can He control which houses are spared from a sweeping fire?  Can he bring someone through a horrific wreck, unscathed?  How many have come home from times of war uninjured?  Will not God be in control of His own judgment and who is touched by His actual wrath and who is not?

Concerning your second paragraph, your opening words substantiate what I have been saying.  Have our "good Christian brothers" experienced great tribulation?  Yeah.  And, what do you mean by the rest of your paragraph?  Weren't those you are talking about in your opening line a part of the Church?  Do not present day Christians go through brutal stuff as well?  So, yesterday they were in their Sunday choir robes and today they are bargain hunting at Walmart.  This doesn't say anything about what it might be for them by the week's end.  They may be down at the school yard hoping that their beloved child is not one of those found dead.

Again, not one of us is promised that we will be spared tribulation or great tribulation in this life.  Rather, we can expect it.  But, those who are saved when the 6th Seal is opened will be delivered from the period of the last days' DOTL judgment and all it includes.  How do we know this?  That's what is revealed to us in Scripture.  That is the Father's will.

Why is it that you are so resistant to such truths?  Cause it's not fair?  Is it fair that Ms. ________'s grandson put the muzzle of a 12 gauge pistol grip home defense shotgun in his mouth and pulled the trigger and she was the third one to see him lying in his puddle of blood---within seconds of it happening?  The first two to see him were his girlfriend and my son---who witnessed it.  I did the funeral.  I can't help but to tear-up for her now---and it happened some 10 years ago.  I've never known her to be anything but a God fearing Christian lady.  The last time I saw her, she looked like she had aged about a hundred years in the last 10.  Is that fair?  There is such bad stuff that happens, all over the place, all over the world.  My father-in-law got shot in the back when my wife was little.  He never walked another day in his life.  She can't remember ever seeing him walk.  It didn't make for an easy life.  But, he loved the Lord.  My biological mother seen fit to give me four daddies before I entered the first grade.  The third one got killed by the law in a jail break attempt and then she married his running buddy.  Well, my dad loved the Lord, and fresh out of the Air Force he kidnapped me and my half sister, brought us across the state line, and won custody of us.  I know a little bit about how the story goes.  It has happened to me, around me, and up and down the road from me.  Perhaps similarly with you.  If I was a bettin' man, I would be willing to wager---unless you live on the backside of nowhere.  Emotional plea?  Maybe.  What about a reality plea?  Surely.  But, thanks be unto God that He knows how to turn things around.  And, one fine day, there will be a blessed recompense---don't matter how bad things were.

On 12/31/2022 at 5:27 AM, Diaste said:

Peter says it best:

"For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who disobey the gospel of God?"

Not exactly palatable for the pretrib crowd of any persuasion.

Are you suggesting that the judgment Peter is here talking about is the last days' DOTL judgment?

Edited February 5, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 12/31/2022 at 11:18 AM, abcdef said:

On 12/30/2022 at 8:40 PM, not an echo said:

Hello abcdef,

Since more that a month has gone by since I gave any time to this thread, I had to go back and do some reviewing, and I have read your last two posts afresh.  While I can appreciate the time you took and your kind manner, our discussions only resulted in us going further and further off topic.

Hi not an echo,

The topic is the 144000, the multitude, yes, and the great trib, ok.

Who are the multitude and what great trib were they in?

What are the circumstances that they are seen in? 

What is there future?

How and where do they fit into the overall timeline?

--

You and I may disagree on these things, that's ok.

But all these questions are relevant to your discussion and should be identified.

Since there is some disagreement about the answers, that leads to an interesting discussion.

Hello again abcdef,

Concerning your last three lines, something has given me the impression that you are less interested in discussing the subject of this thread and more interested in putting forth your preterist ideas.  How did I ever get this impression?  Well, let's see...you've said:

"The 6th seal is the day of the Lord against Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD ish."

"The 6th seal and the seventh seal had both been broken by the time John wrote."

"The first four trumpets were already blowing by then also."

"The trouble that the multitude came through is not necessarily the trouble of of a 7 or 3 1/2 year period. It could be referring to the time before 33 AD."

"It should be considered that they could be from the first fruit resurrection of 33 AD."

"This means that the events that seals represent had to take place before the 85 AD- 96 AD writing of the Revelation."

"1-5 Seals represent the period from the rejection of the gospel kingdom by Israel in 37 AD through 70 AD."

"The 6th seal is the 67 AD-70 AD destruction of Jerusalem and the temple."

"The 7th seal, broken on the same day, means that all the events of prophecy concerning the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem, the temple, and the scattering of Israel into the gentile nations had been accomplished."

"The multitude and 144000 are shown in heaven with Jesus during the seal period, before the 6th seal. This is showing redeemed souls from the 33 AD resurrection of Jesus."

"The 6th seal is the Day of the Lord against 70 AD Jerusalem."

"The 6th/7th seals are broken when Jerusalem falls."

"The 1/2 hour of silence in heaven is the time between 70 AD and the writing of the Revelation and attaches the seals to the trumpets timeline."

"The fall of 70 AD Jerusalem and the scattering of the children of Israel into the gentile nations completes all of the necessary events required for the 7 sealed scroll to be opened."

"So, the multitude seen in the seals, that came out of a time of trouble, could be be from the resurrection of Jesus in 33 AD and with Jesus and John in the 85 AD time period."

"Understand that Jesus came as God when the the temple and Jerusalem were destroyed in 70 AD ish."

WHOA!

"The first 4 seals are from 37 AD when Israel rejected the Pentecost gospel kingdom of Israel until the fulfillment of the prophecies about Jerusalem, the temple, and the great scattering were fulfilled at the 6th/7th seal in 70 AD."

"The 2 witnesses are the faithful Christian flesh children of Israel who were scattered into the gentile nations before and after the 70 AD destruction of the temple"

(all emphasis mine)

On 12/31/2022 at 11:18 AM, abcdef said:

But, maybe you only wish to talk with pretrib people who agree with you.

Naw, what it really is is that I don't wish to talk with preterist people who don't agree with me.

Really friend, the further I've gone down this corridor with you, the greater I sense darkness trying to swoop in around me---and now you've got me spooked.  But, I will remain mindful of the things you've put forth.  Hope you will do the same with what I have put forth.

[not an echo]

On 12/31/2022 at 1:44 PM, Keras said:

On 12/30/2022 at 8:16 PM, not an echo said:

Your opening statement is in serious conflict with what Jesus says (Matt. 24:42-44;  Lk. 12:35-40), even a direct contradiction to His exact words in Revelation 16...

Firstly: Yes, I do reject any idea of a 'rapture to heaven'.  That theory is untenable, unscriptural and can never happen.  We must endure until the end. 

Hello Keras,

Seems that you are allowing your understanding of "We must endure until the end " to put your resulting position in conflict with other Scripture.  Would you not agree that whatever you are believing about anything, it must align with everything?

On 12/31/2022 at 1:44 PM, Keras said:

That Jesus does NOT Return 'as a thief', unexpectedly; is proved by 1 Thess 4:16, Matthew 16:27, Revelation 19:11-21

Like unto what I just said, you are allowing your understanding of the references you are showing to put you in conflict with other Scripture, even Jesus' exact words (Rev. 16:15).  There are understandings that will align with everything.  I don't see that you have come to such an understanding here.

On 12/31/2022 at 1:44 PM, Keras said:

The Sixth Seal will be the sudden and shocking event which commences all the Prophesied end times things. A terrible Judgment and punishment by fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis, the world changer that will enable the establishment of a One World Govt. 

I would not disagree with the understanding your words here reflect.  And, the picture your words here reflect will be enhanced even further as you get more of the related prophetic puzzle pieces assembled in their proper place (e.g., Matt. 24:29-31;  Lk. 21:25-28;  Acts 2:20;  I Thess. 4:16-5:3;  I Cor. 15:51-52).

[Keras]

4 hours ago, not an echo said:

Seems that you are allowing your understanding of "We must endure until the end " to put your resulting position in conflict with other Scripture.  Would you not agree that whatever you are believing about anything, it must align with everything?

Thinking that we don't have to endure until the end of this age, is the big mistake.

In Revelation 7:9-14, John sees the great multitude of people from every race, nation and tribe, who can only be Christians; robed in white. They receive those robes of righteousness because they stood firm in their faith, passing thru the great ordeal. The test of our faith by fire, 1 Peter 4:12, and the terrible effects as described for the Day of the Lords wrath, the just happened Sixth Seal disaster. 

The proper place for this multiple Prophesied event, is at least 10 years before Jesus Returns. 

 

[abcdef]

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello again abcdef,

Concerning your last three lines, something has given me the impression that you are less interested in discussing the subject of this thread and more interested in putting forth your preterist ideas.

Brother,

I am not a preterist. I just have come to the same conclusions about some passages.

The BIG difference between what I say and the preterists say comes AFTER 70 AD.

The 7 trumpets are after 70 AD. The 7 vials are after 70 AD.

Jesus is about to come for the kingdom.

These are far from preterism.

---

When is the trouble that the multitude came out of? Past or future? I say past, you say future, I assume.

When are they before the throne? Past, present, future, or all three? You mat say future, I would say all three.

My brother, it is not that we have different positions on the placement in the timeline of the multitude and trib, it is if we can confirm our position with scripture.  

 

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

  How did I ever get this impression?  Well, let's see...you've said:

"The 6th seal is the day of the Lord against Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD ish."

Rev 6:16 - Confirmed by Lk 23:30

 

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

"The 6th seal and the seventh seal had both been broken by the time John wrote."

This should be obvious, the scroll is open now and has been read since 96 AD ish when the Revelation was given..

(Preterism says that the scroll was open before the 70 AD destruction.)

 

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

"The first four trumpets were already blowing by then also."

AFTER 70 AD, the trumpets began to blow. The effects center on the unbelieving broken branches and not the gentile planet.  

(Preterism says that the trumpets are all before 70 AD.)

 

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

"The trouble that the multitude came through is not necessarily the trouble of of a 7 or 3 1/2 year period. It could be referring to the time before 33 AD."

The trib/trouble period begins when the iron of the Dan. 2 statue began in 63 BC. 

The iron part of the statue ended in 1967. (Preterism teaches that the statue ended in 33 AD.)

The 4th beast of Dan. 7 describes what the Roman nation does to the children of Israel. 

 

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

"It should be considered that they could be from the first fruit resurrection of 33 AD."

Jesus was not the only one resurrected in 33 AD.

He resurrected was all those who heard His voice, Jn 5:25-29, 25, "now is", 33 AD.

He resurrected with a host who were captives of sin until Jesus resurrected, Eph 4:8.

According to these verses, the multitude that John saw certainly could have been from the resurrection of Jesus, as John saw them before the throne in 96 AD.

 

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

"This means that the events that seals represent had to take place before the 85 AD- 96 AD writing of the Revelation."

Preterists place the writing of the Rev before 70 AD,

I place it as being written after 70 AD. Say 85 AD - 96 AD ish.

 

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

"1-5 Seals represent the period from the rejection of the gospel kingdom by Israel in 37 AD through 70 AD."

Yes. If the 6th/7th seal is 70 AD, and the 5 seals take place before that, it would fit with the timeline.

 

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

"The 6th seal is the 67 AD-70 AD destruction of Jerusalem and the temple."

You may observe that there is no resurrection shown at the 6th seal.

It is something that many have assumed.

 

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

"The 7th seal, broken on the same day, means that all the events of prophecy concerning the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem, the temple, and the scattering of Israel into the gentile nations had been accomplished."

Yes, but it is what happens after that 70 AD that separates me from others, 70 AD and after, to this day, a continual timeline after 70 AD.

The seals and trumpets are one continual timeline, that ends at the 7th trumpet (last).

Please take note that the angel in Dan. 12:7 says that the sealed book could only be opened after the power of the holy people is scattered. (70 AD implied)

Showing that the scroll was opened in the 85 - 96 AD period satisfies that sequence in the timeline.

 

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

"The multitude and 144000 are shown in heaven with Jesus during the seal period, before the 6th seal. This is showing redeemed souls from the 33 AD resurrection of Jesus."

Yes. There are only 2 resurrections.

Jesus in 33 AD and when He comes for the kingdom. 1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24.

Since Jesus has not come for the kingdom yet, the multitude can only be from the first resurrection in 33 AD.

(Again, different from preterism)

 

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

"The 6th seal is the Day of the Lord against 70 AD Jerusalem."

There are many days of the Lord against different nations.

For us mainly, there are 2 days of the Lord.

One in 70 AD and one that is about to happen.

(Different from preterism)

 

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

"The 6th/7th seals are broken when Jerusalem falls."

Yes.

 

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

"The 1/2 hour of silence in heaven is the time between 70 AD and the writing of the Revelation and attaches the seals to the trumpets timeline."

Yes, again different from preterism.

 

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

"The fall of 70 AD Jerusalem and the scattering of the children of Israel into the gentile nations completes all of the necessary events required for the 7 sealed scroll to be opened."

Preterism places the scroll opening before 70 AD.

 

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

"So, the multitude seen in the seals, that came out of a time of trouble, could be be from the resurrection of Jesus in 33 AD and with Jesus and John in the 85 AD time period."

The trib, the times of Caesar worship and Rome that began in 63 BC. and ends in 1967.

 

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

"Understand that Jesus came as God when the the temple and Jerusalem were destroyed in 70 AD ish."

WHOA!

Oh, you didn't consider that Jesus brought the Roman army to fulfill the prophecies that He made about Jerusalem and the temple?

Please consider this, that no one could destroy Jerusalem and the temple if God/Jesus was protecting them.

God brings armies against Jerusalem when they fall away, as history shows.

Was Jesus/God "present" at the 70 AD destruction? Bringing the Roman armies to fulfill prophecies?

Jesus came at the 70 AD destruction, but it wasn't a resurrection coming. It was a coming for righteous justice. 

(People get the coming at the 70 AD destruction, mixed up with the resur/rapt coming for salvation, which will soon happen.)

 

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

"The first 4 seals are from 37 AD when Israel rejected the Pentecost gospel kingdom of Israel until the fulfillment of the prophecies about Jerusalem, the temple, and the great scattering were fulfilled at the 6th/7th seal in 70 AD."

Yes, the seals are all about the unbelieving broken branches of flesh Israel and the loss of covenant protection, and not the gentile planet earth.

 

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

"The 2 witnesses are the faithful Christian flesh children of Israel who were scattered into the gentile nations before and after the 70 AD destruction of the temple"

(all emphasis mine)

Preterists say the 2 witnesses are before 70 AD.

The fact that they seen as witnessing in Jerusalem shows the restoration of Jerusalem to Israel, 1967, (this is not preterism).

 

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

Naw, what it really is is that I don't wish to talk with preterist people who don't agree with me.

It isn't that we disagree, it is if we can support our positions with scriptures or not.

 

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

Really friend, the further I've gone down this corridor with you, the greater I sense darkness trying to swoop in around me---and now you've got me spooked.  But, I will remain mindful of the things you've put forth.  Hope you will do the same with what I have put forth.

What I say, is new and different since 2002. 

A different way of putting things together.

Not all past and not all future, in between.

If you don't want to continue the discussion, just don't respond and I won't bother you on your thread again.

But since I have told you some things that you have not considered before, you may want to continue a bit further.

---

[not an echo]

Hello abcdef,

I don't know if you noticed, but the way you just replied to me, you show 18 times that "not an echo said:" things that I never said, but that you said.   I only said your opening quote of me and the last two things you have me quoted as saying.

You need to fix this, then I will have a few things more to say.

[Marilyn C]

On 6/7/2022 at 2:46 AM, not an echo said:

Hello all,

 

While my position is that the Church will not be subjected to any of the great tribulation of Daniel's 70th Week, is there any evidence in Scripture that it will not be subjected to great tribulation? 

Hi not an echo,

I hope you hold fast to that truth. 

The `great multitude` hold `palm branches` in their hands. This symbol points to when God told Israel to make booths/tabernacles in the wilderness. This indicates that these of the `nations who are saved ,` will walk in the light of the fulfillment of God`s Tabernacle. (Rev. 21: 24)

The Body of Christ will be caught away to rule with the Lord on His own throne in the highest, (Rev. 3: 21,  Eph. 1: 20 - 23). There we will judge the world system and fallen angels, (during the trib.) (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3) 

Marilyn.

[Diaste]

On 1/2/2023 at 8:26 PM, not an echo said:

On 12/31/2022 at 4:27 AM, Diaste said:

Well...if this Day of the Lord judgement includes all of the last week then it seems God is literally forcing the people of earth to worship a false god through the mark and the image. 

But doesn't the angel say not to take the mark? That the mark equals condemnation? So God makes people take the mark just so He can condemn then to eternal death? 

This would also mean God is placing the A of D, even installing the person who will blaspheme His name and profane His tabernacle. 

Worse, God would then be killing His own martyrs. 

How is the church delivered from this, when I'm sure you acknowledge there are many saved during this time after the church is gone, so they don't endure the judgement but others who are saved do endure the judgement? 

A bit topsy turvy.

What?  How are you getting all this?

Because that's how it works out when the last week is synonymous with God's wrath. I just never understood how it is some escape God's wrath and others are thrown into that same wrath.

Believers escape the wrath of God, but then some do not according to all pretrib doctrines. That is not what scripture says. 

If it was true then it would lead to other conditions and conclusions, which I pointed out. 

On 1/2/2023 at 8:26 PM, not an echo said:

Again, not one of us is promised that we will be spared tribulation or great tribulation in this life.  Rather, we can expect it.  But, those who are saved when the 6th Seal is opened will be delivered from the period of the last days' DOTL judgment and all it includes.  How do we know this?  That's what is revealed to us in Scripture.  That is the Father's will.

Okay. But then there are still those who are not saved from it while others are. 

Pretrib adroitly escapes by what you said, "those who are saved when the 6th Seal is opened will be delivered from the period of the last days' DOTL judgment and all it includes. "

But then what of the saved with in that same time? Do they have a different salvation? Maybe a lesser spirituality? 

Again, I just cannot understand;

"We are saved from it but you other people, who are saved later, aren't saved from it."

[Diaste]

On 1/2/2023 at 6:51 PM, not an echo said:

I've got no problem at all with what you are saying here, as long as you don't ask me to get back on that---great tribulation equals Daniel's 70th Week and nothing else---merry-go-round again!

Well, GT does not equal Daniel's 70th week. I never said that.

GT is a portion of Daniel's 70th week after the midpoint of the week, the midpoint when the A of D occurs, as it is written.