A Mis - Understood Topic: Timing of the Rapture

[truth7t7]

7 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Is it not your duty, if you believe that you hold the truth, to tell the misguided? Surely you care for your brothers in the Lord. Why have you not written a paper against a rapture to show why the word "harpazo" shouldn't be there? Where are your counter-arguments to the thousands of astute scholars who have examined "harpazo" in its contexts and found a rapture that removes Christians from the scene of God's wrath? You should explain why God would save Noah and family, save Abraham, Jacob, Joseph and even Lot, but He won't save His Overcomers from the Church from His wrath.

You owe this to Christ your Master. We are nothing, but does not God require someone's blood if you knew he was in danger but refused to tell him. What will become of you? In Matthew 25 a man or woman will go to the Lake of Fire for not giving a Christian a glass of water. How will you fare when you withheld truth that could have changed the future of a sister in Christ?

We await your exegesis (but based on your record we're not holding our breaths).

Harpazo/Rapture/Caught Up?

Of course, but it takes place at the second coming of Jesus Christ, on the "Last Day" resurrection of all in final judgement, not 3.5 years before this as you believe and teach

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 Isn't A Pre-Tribulation Rapture, Dont Be Deceived

The main scripture used by supporters of the (Pre-Trib Rapture) is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a (Pre-Trib Rapture), don't be deceived

 

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% Yes!

 

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% Yes!

 

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% Yes!

 

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

 

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

 

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

 

John 5:28-29KJV

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

John 6:39-40KJV

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

 

John 12:48KJV

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Edited June 27, 2022 by truth7t7

[truth7t7]

7 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

You should write a book.  You know the time/day/date of the Rapture (the Coming of the Bridegroom), which is a lot more that the angels in heaven or the God the Son knows.

In Christ

Montana Marv

At no time do I claim to know the day or hour of the coming of Jesus Christ, as you falsely claim in accusation

One thing I do know,a pre-trib rapture is found no place in scripture as many claim

Jesus Is The Lord

[WilliamL]

On 6/23/2022 at 6:59 AM, AdHoc said:

On 6/22/2022 at 7:39 PM, Montana Marv said:

Only before the ascension. At the Ascension Paradise/Bosom of Abraham was removed from the center of the earth and taken to heaven.

In Christ

Montana Marv

I know that many believe this. I have yet to find any evidence.

Two arguments are put forward to support this theory. The first is Ephesians 4:8 - "captivity was led captive". But if Hades, or Abraham's Bosom, was captivity, how could it be led captive? ...

I judge that there is not a single bit of evidence that Paradise has moved. ALL indications are that it remains in Hades under the earth. The dead always "RISE".

The evidence is found summed up in these passages:

John 5:25 “Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

1 Peter 4:6 ...the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Ephesians 4:9 Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?

Matthew 16:18 “And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

In sum, Jesus descended into Hades, preached the gospel to the dead, and those who received it could no longer be bound below in Hades. These of course included the faithful OT saints in the place of the dead called Abraham's bosom.

 

[Montana Marv]

28 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

At no time do I claim to know the day or hour of the coming of Jesus Christ, as you falsely claim in accusation

One thing I do know,a pre-trib rapture is found no place in scripture as many claim

Jesus Is The Lord

You said that the Rapture or Coming of the Bridegroom was at the Second Coming.  Which is found no where in scripture. Another false premise. What I do know is that the Post trib doctrine is not found in Scripture as many claim.  What's knew.

In Christ 

Montana Marv 

[Montana Marv]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

The point is not "that the time of the Rapture/coming of the Bridegroom is not revealed in Scripture." The point is that no one can know whether or not God will reveal something in the future that has never been revealed up to that time. This principle is succinctly stated thus:

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD does nothing,
Unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets.

According to this Scripture, God apparently must reveal the secret of the time of the Rapture sometime (however brief) before it actually occurs.

Yes. The Father will say your Bride is ready.  Go out and retrieve her. For it is  God the Father who draws us to his Son. The Father is doing the work of persuading us.

In Christ 

Montana Marv 

[WilliamL]

On 6/24/2022 at 6:15 AM, AdHoc said:

The question you have to answer, for yourself - not me, is that if Peter said that David has not yet ascended, why do so many Christians, who should love and cherish the Word of God, do all in their power to annul it.

And then here is another question: Peter said that what took place on the Pentecost after the Resurrection "is what was spoken by the prophet Joel" (Acts 2:16); then quoted Joel 2:28-32. Do you believe Peter was correct, and that Joel's prophecy of "the Day of the Lord" was fulfilled at that time?

Peter also wrote, in 1 Peter 4:7, that "the end of all things is near." Do you believe Peter was correct? (Especially since he later said, just before his death, that "with the Lord one day is as a thousand years" -- thus indicating that he had changed his mind about the immanency of the Lord's Parousia.)

Just to stir things up a bit.

Edited June 27, 2022 by WilliamL
deleted non-functional emoticon

[WilliamL]

8 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Yes. The Father will say your Bride is ready.  Go out and retrieve her.

And the Bride is told before the Bridegroom arrives, "Behold, the Bridegroom cometh..."

The Bride is told beforehand. So that she/they know His coming is immanent. All the proof one needs that God will reveal the time of the Parousia beforehand.

Just as Noah was told: beforehand.

[WilliamL]

17 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

But you just posted that the Rapture was at the 2nd Coming.  I would like to see Scripture to verify your position..

The Rapture foretold in 1 Thes. 4:14ff. takes place at "the Parousia of the Lord." 4:15

The "Coming" of Christ that He foretold in Matthew 24 was in response to the disciples' question, "What will be the sign of your Parousia/Coming, and of the sunteleias/full completion of the age?" 24:3

Every time the term Parousia is prophesied in the NT, it is referring to the coming of Christ for His Church, accompanied by the resurrection of the dead. The evidence is unmistakable. Please read the following for all the evidence, which is too lengthy to post here:

52. The Parousia of the Son of Man

Reviews the use of the term parousia by Jesus, Paul, and Peter, and what is thereby revealed about the sequence of End Time events.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2211-the-parousia-of-the-son-of-man/

 

[truth7t7]

50 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

You said that the Rapture or Coming of the Bridegroom was at the Second Coming.  Which is found no where in scripture. Another false premise. What I do know is that the Post trib doctrine is not found in Scripture as many claim.  What's knew.

In Christ 

Montana Marv 

Thanks for your opinion, it's my opinion you're wrong

Jesus Is The Lord 

[iamlamad]

39 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

The Rapture foretold in 1 Thes. 4:14ff. takes place at "the Parousia of the Lord." 4:15

The "Coming" of Christ that He foretold in Matthew 24 was in response to the disciples' question, "What will be the sign of your Parousia/Coming, and of the sunteleias/full completion of the age?" 24:3

Every time the term Parousia is prophesied in the NT, it is referring to the coming of Christ for His Church, accompanied by the resurrection of the dead. The evidence is unmistakable. Please read the following for all the evidence, which is too lengthy to post here:

52. The Parousia of the Son of Man

Reviews the use of the term parousia by Jesus, Paul, and Peter, and what is thereby revealed about the sequence of End Time events.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2211-the-parousia-of-the-son-of-man/

 

If you are trying to say that His coming as in 1 Thes. 4 will be the same coming as in Matthew 24. MILLIONS of pretrib believers disagree. I think the scriptures also disagree. These will be two separate comings separated by over 7 years. Paul's coming (1 thes. 4) is just before the start of God's wrath, while Jesus' Matthew 24 coming will be AFTER "the tribulation of those days" which is many chapters in Revelation AFTER the start of God's wrath at the 6th seal.

As a clincher, John saw the just raptured church in heaven in Revelation 7, again over 7 years before Jesus coming as shown in Revelation 19.