Isa 53'and Jewish Rabbis

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, Slibhin said:

Now I have more time.

You have several hurdles which are the following:

- You're never ever going to convince us that G-d has altered or changed his covenant with the Jewish people by a single letter. Christians teach that he not only did this, but that he tore out entire pages and threw then in the bin. G-d has plainly stated that he is unchanging and everlasting. He always keeps his word and his covenants, even if the other side doesn't always.

- The Tanakh and the "Old Testament" are not the same. There are numerous differences, some subtle and some major. Anything you profess, if it's not from the Tanakh we will disregard it. We don't believe in the Christian bible, if we did we wouldn't be Jews.

- We do not believe in original sin.

- We do not believe in the devil or fallen angels.

- We do not believe Jesus qualifies as the Messiah.

- We certainly don't believe in the trinity, a belief you have while claiming to be monotheistic, which gives me tremendous anxiety.

 

You bring up an absolutely fair point, but that point applies to everyone here not just me. We are all more or less products of our upbringing. Do I lean on my years of training from Synagogue? Absolutely. I can also at any point call my Rabbi and get an answer to any question I have, and if I probe deeper get the reasons why something is believed. Most Rabbis can give you a two hour discussion on one verse because of how studied they are.

It's a Christian forum and people here wanna save my soul. They can fill their boots. But the burden is still on you to make your case, not just insist we're all wrong and you're so right. Jews have a very long history and a very firm theological basis for what we believe. If you think this or that passage in the Tanakh means the Messiah, especially Jesus then you're gonna have to make a pretty strong case.

So before blaming my unbelief on my upbringing are you prepared to make the same concession? Could you be wrong about Yeshayahu? Could you be wrong about Christianity?

Ok, that could have been worse but we are still here. My opening statement to you was an attempt to remove any unfair or unacceptable source records (for either party) before any conversation would begin. 
This will result in accessing only one book - The Tanakh, and that can be the one that you read and study. 
@JohnD had responded with the verses in both Isaiah and Daniel for your consideration. If they are acceptable to you then at least we have a starting point. If not, then perhaps you might provide those verses converted into English that you approve of. 
 

There is absolutely no possibility anyone can convince or convert or prove to you or anyone on this earth the MANY things you mentioned- Is Jesus the Messiah, the Trinity, did He change the covenant, and perhaps no less than another million other “things” you could bring up. Not going to happen! 
 

Heck, if you stay in this site for even a short time you will easily realize how confused these Christians are.. there is hardly any agreement in the law of Moses or the definition of man in Genesis. 
 

Without the Scriptures (Tanakh) we are nothing more than the millions of pagans that were on this earth prior to the 1st century. Completely lost. So let’s read, study and learn together from the scriptures and see where it takes us. Slowly, verse by verse if necessary. 
 

So, we can all put away our conclusions and open the Tanakh to begin studying / discussing whatever topic we want.. I believe the topic brought forward is Isaiah 53. 
 

If you are willing to discuss this chapter or perhaps start with Isaiah 42 and move toward 53, that might work… I don’t want to speak for anyone especially @Wayne222 but you might take the lead on this topic and choose the first chapter in Isaiah to begin and discuss the meaning of each verse . 
 

This way we can immediately discover the very first conflict or disagreement that is separating or beginning to separate our belief that Isaiah 53 is or is not messianic and then if Jesus is the Messiah. 
 

We will never learn anything by throwing our 2000 year old hardened conclusion at each other. 

Just a thought, Charlie 

 

[Starise]

23 hours ago, Wayne222 said:

     I know and believe Isa 53 is speaking of Jesus Christ. I been debating some Orthodox Jewish Rabbis and lay people. One is Rabbi Singer. He is a very good speaker and debater. You can look him up on YouTube. Anyway he and others say Isa 53:is talking about The nation of Isarel. It's saying according to the Rabbi that Isarel is the suffering servant. I for one want to reach the Jewish people with gospel of Christ. But rabbi Singer is very hard to debate. He knows the Hebrew very well. Anyone have good sound theology of Isa 53 ?

I heard by a reliable source one practicing Jewish man said they don't read Isaiah 53.

It seems they are very selective in their study material. I don't mean to say they are all this way, but this man's rabbi was.

Whenever I hear see one one say, "Let me ask my Rabbi", the statement is like saying, "Let me ask what I'm supposed to believe" Apparently the rabbi is like the Catholic pope who has the followers believing his word is the last word on everything. This is putting a man's views over what God says. I'm sure the Rabbis know the Tanka well, however God can reveal a meaning to anyone. A person claiming to be a spiritual leader should be tested. If they are caught denying a truth or misrepresenting what it says, they should not be trusted. I don't care who or what they claim to be.

I would never trust a Christian pastor who I knew was either intentionally or unintentionally misrepresenting the word.

I actually left a church partially because of doctrinal error that could be proven.

[Charlie744]

3 minutes ago, Starise said:

I heard by a reliable source one practicing Jewish man said they don't read Isaiah 53.

It seems they are very selective in their study material. I don't mean to say they are all this way, but this man's rabbi was.

Whenever I hear see one one say, "Let me ask my Rabbi", the statement is like saying, "Let me ask what I'm supposed to believe" Apparently the rabbi is like the Catholic pope who has the followers believing his word is the last word on everything. This is putting a man's views over what God says. I'm sure the Rabbis know the Tanka well, however God can reveal a meaning to anyone. A person claiming to be a spiritual leader should be tested. If they are caught denying a truth or misrepresenting what it says, they should not be trusted. I don't care who or what they claim to be.

I would never trust a Christian pastor who I knew was either intentionally or unintentionally misrepresenting the word.

I actually left a church partially because of doctrinal error that could be proven.

You are certainly correct... Isaiah 53 is skipped over and is not read, studied or discussed. If you do find a Rabbi such as Singer willing to talk about 53 (which was years ago and he will never do that again), they / he will select those verses that do in fact speak to the identity of the "servant". However, those selected verses from 42  to 53 do not include those verses where the "servant" can not possibly be identified with Israel (as a nation), or Isaiah himself. The other verses speak of a "suffering servant" who pays for the sins and transgressions - Israel as a nation, or Isaiah were never "righteous" and could not possibly be a sacrifice for their own sins. No where in the scriptures are the Israelites or Jews ever considered "righteous". If we read the prophets, kings, judges, etc., they did a pretty good job of consistently disobeying  God and committing idolatry. Their best time was during the reign of David and Solomon and would never meet that definition. Consequently, they were / are no less sinners than any other man on earth and they could not possibly serve in a righteous sacrifice for their own sins.

Good news --- there is no question we are approaching the time of the end, the second coming of the Messiah, and everyone will come to see the Jews recognizing their Messiah was Jesus. It will  be the second most amazing event in the history of the world and they will indeed preach the scriptures and the Good News to the Christians exactly as Paul had... then they will know and see the truth through the eyes and mouth of the Jews. Today's Christians have been taught the scriptures largely through the Catholic church and of course the Protestant church - both have been diluted and corrupted through the "little horn". A perfect example is the change of the Sabbath to Sunday - seems innocent to most Christians (and this is not an attempt to discuss this subject- it has been discussed ad nauseam without any movement either way). This is simply just one of the thousands of changes the "church" has made to the scriptures - but if Paul were here to teach us, it would not be so familiar to most.... which is why we need to see the Jews accept Jesus.... certainly for their salvation, but their teaching of His Word and the Messiah will save hundreds of millions if not billions.... I do not believe God is g0ing to accept those 2 B Christians who have brought a note from the pope telling them to worship on Sunday and pray to Mary, and......

I also do not expect @Slibhin to every engage in a 53 conversation. This is not meant to disparage her in any way, it is simply what they are taught. 

 

 

 

[Your closest friendnt]

12 hours ago, Slibhin said:

Now I have more time.

You have several hurdles which are the following:

- You're never ever going to convince us that G-d has altered or changed his covenant with the Jewish people by a single letter. Christians teach that he not only did this, but that he tore out entire pages and threw then in the bin. G-d has plainly stated that he is unchanging and everlasting. He always keeps his word and his covenants, even if the other side doesn't always.

- The Tanakh and the "Old Testament" are not the same. There are numerous differences, some subtle and some major. Anything you profess, if it's not from the Tanakh we will disregard it. We don't believe in the Christian bible, if we did we wouldn't be Jews.

- We do not believe in original sin.

- We do not believe in the devil or fallen angels.

- We do not believe Jesus qualifies as the Messiah.

- We certainly don't believe in the trinity, a belief you have while claiming to be monotheistic, which gives me tremendous anxiety.

 

You bring up an absolutely fair point, but that point applies to everyone here not just me. We are all more or less products of our upbringing. Do I lean on my years of training from Synagogue? Absolutely. I can also at any point call my Rabbi and get an answer to any question I have, and if I probe deeper get the reasons why something is believed. Most Rabbis can give you a two hour discussion on one verse because of how studied they are.

It's a Christian forum and people here wanna save my soul. They can fill their boots. But the burden is still on you to make your case, not just insist we're all wrong and you're so right. Jews have a very long history and a very firm theological basis for what we believe. If you think this or that passage in the Tanakh means the Messiah, especially Jesus then you're gonna have to make a pretty strong case.

So before blaming my unbelief on my upbringing are you prepared to make the same concession? Could you be wrong about Yeshayahu? Could you be wrong about Christianity?

@Slibhin

It's not God who ended the Covenant but the people of the Covenant, ended the Covenant...

Edited August 14, 2022 by Your closest friendnt

[Hopefully]

Isaiah 53 is clearly talking about Jesus. 

Some people do not want to believe Isaiah 53 is taking about Jesus.

Keep on telling the good news to whoever wants to hear it.

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, Slibhin said:

I cannot see JohnD's posts. Learning is a two way street and if you are not open to absorbing new information then it'll be a short conversation. In defense of the other posters here I do find it very arrogant of you to speak as if they are confused and you have it all figured out. How do you know you aren't totally wrong?

Isaiah is talking about Israel and clearly so because earlier in the book he refers to Israel in both the plural and the singular. You have to actually read the entire book, not just an excised paragraph. Insisting it's about Jesus over and over again does not make much of an argument.

I am fine with talking about Isaiah or any other subject. I have no idea where this myth that Jews avoid this or that segment of the Tanakh comes from but I'm happy to disabuse you of that notion. Just because we aren't coming to the conclusions you want us to doesn't mean we avoid or don't read something.

I do not like people talking as if I'm not part of the conversation and I can certainly speak for myself. The reason I didn't respond right away is because it was Shabbat and I try to stay off the internet. If I'm half asleep my instinct is to reach for my phone as soon as I wake so I sometimes fail, but I generally stay off.

If there is anyone that has already declared their position on Jesus and whether 53 is Messianic is you. 
 

So, if you would like to begin discussing 53 or start at 42 and work through to 53 I am sure they would be fine for everyone.

So, pick the first verse you think is appropriate and offer your interpretation for it and send it out. Then, everyone who might be interested in this subject can consider and respond. 
 

 

[JohnR7]

On 8/12/2022 at 8:25 PM, Wayne222 said:

 I know and believe Isa 53 is speaking of Jesus Christ. I been debating some Orthodox Jewish Rabbis and lay people. One is Rabbi Singer. He is a very good speaker and debater. You can look him up on YouTube. Anyway he and others say Isa 53:is talking about The nation of Isarel. It's saying according to the Rabbi that Isarel is the suffering servant. I for one want to reach the Jewish people with gospel of Christ. But rabbi Singer is very hard to debate. He knows the Hebrew very well. Anyone have good sound theology of Isa 53 ?

If you study Kaballah or the Hasdic faith you will know that they work off of Paradigms or Archetypes. That is no problem if they want to say that Isreal is a type of the sufferent servent that we call Christ. One thing we have to consider is they do not necessarily reject Jesus or His teachings. They reject the followers of Jesus and what they consider to be their teachings. So if all of Israel is a type of the suffering servant then Jesus would be qualified because He is a part of Israel. Again their problem is not with Jesus but with the gentile followers of Jesus. 

Of coures Rabbi Singer represents Judaism not Israel, but that should not change anything. Jeremiah 3:8 makes it clear that Judah is the little sister that follows Isreal.  

Edited August 14, 2022 by JohnR7

[JohnR7]

On 8/13/2022 at 2:18 AM, Slibhin said:

You can believe it, that doesn't make it so. Rabbi's spend many years studying Hebrew, the Tanakh and Talmud. You'd better have a better argument then "I believe" if you plan to debate centuries of settled theology. We go by what is written.

It is pretty easy to debate the Babbi on just about anything because they always seem to contradict themselves. So their real arguement is with themselves and we just point out their contradictions and they become speechless. Unless of course they get into a discussion on paradoxes.

[Starise]

I don't agree with everything JohnR7 says either. This has been the technique used by Jews ever since they started denying the prophets and apostles. They just had them killed or sent them away.

Anti Sematic is a serious charge to level at a person you don't know and who you make an assumption they said something anti-sematic. I still can't find anything anti sematic about what he said. If anything, I don't believe we have ANYONE here who is anti sematic. Quite the contrary. 

A few things I have heard recently:

One Jewish community has a guard posted at the gate to ask questions and make sure the person won't say or teach anything the community is against before they let them through. 

Next- Many Jews are told that since Hitler was supposedly a Christian, have nothing to do with Christians.

First off, if Hitler was a Christian I'll eat my underwear every day for a year ( they will be washed and cleaned though). The church he associated with isn't a Christian church. The Catholic church is apostate and I think will be a part of the coming great deception. I believe the Rabbis use it for a card to scare their followers away from true Christianity..

Jews- We don't believe in Jesus or the New Testament

Christians- We do believe in Jesus because He became real in our lives in a supernatural way. Isaiah contains prophetic texts, since Isaiah was a prophet from God. Chapter 53 of that book clearly indicates Jesus because no one else fits that description. Other chapters in that book further emphasize the inclusion of Gentiles into the fold.

Jews- None of it means what you think it means and when the text says "he" or "Him" it isn't really a person.

Christian-I can't think of any other place in the entire Bible where a place is called a "He". The church is sometimes referred to as a Her. Never a He. The other dynamic- All other groups are sinful human beings who would not have been an acceptable sacrifice. Chapter 53 strongly denotes a sacrifice by an individual. 

 

 

[Charlie744]

7 hours ago, Slibhin said:

The topic of the thread is Isaiah 53 and it's alleged connection to Jesus. If you do not believe Isaiah 53 is a messianic allusion why are we even having a discussion? We already agree!

Candidly, I have no idea what you agree or disagree with... you clearly have no problem stating your conclusions, but it is important to try and learn / discuss how you reached those conclusions.... 

So, here we go and I will try again... To me, Isaiah 53 is an unbelievable , unmistakable writing of the coming Messiah. There is only ONE Messiah and He is the Jewish Messiah to come...Consequently, it is messianic. Isaiah goes into great detail and length to discuss this "suffering servant". 

So, once again, let us put aside all this rhetoric and try to understand our differences and agreements with Isaiah 52 / 53. I have asked you to lead the way and provide a beginning verse in an acceptable Jewish / English translation but ….

 

So, if I may, here is a beginning verse in Isaiah 52:13-14. It is from the NKJV  and if you would like to remove it and replace it with the JPS Tanakh version... that would be fine.

                     13 Behold, My Servant shall deal prudently;
                  He shall be exalted and extolled and be very high.

                      14 Just as many were astonished at you,
                  So His visage was marred more than any man,
                  And His form more than the sons of men;

 

Would you be so kind as to offer your interpretation of these few verses?

Thank you, Charlie