Isa 53'and Jewish Rabbis

[Charlie744]

28 minutes ago, Slibhin said:

I always consult my rabbi if I don't know the answer to a question, so you may get answers slowly or quickly depending on my ignorance. As I already said it is talking about Israel and is not Messianic. All you have to do is read the other parts of Isaiah.

Isaiah 41:8

But you, Israel My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham, who loved Me

Isaiah 41:9

Whom I grasped from the ends of the earth, and from its nobles I called you, and I said to you, "You are My servant"; I chose you and I did not despise you. 

Isaiah 41:10

Do not fear for I am with you; be not discouraged for I am your God: I encouraged you, I also helped you, I also supported you with My righteous hand.

And so on.

G-d is talking to Israel in the singular. According to my limited research it seems most Christians have never read the Tanakh. Many who love to quote this verse do so without ever having read the rest of Isaiah, because to me the meaning is clear. The suffering servant is Israel.

You are correct that I don't care what the Old Testament says. Christian translations are not identical to the Tanakh and therefore are invalid to me. No offense to anyone.

Once again, please … no need to repeat your conclusions. You state that “all I have to do is read the other parts of the scriptures”. 
I could say the same thing to you ! 
 

I would request you address the 2 verses mentioned in the previous response, offer your interpretation and we can discuss… 

Thanks, Charlie 

[Your closest friendnt]

The bride dress in white...that can never happen within the Sinai Covenant.  

No one within the Sinai Covenant can stand in his presence.

No one dare to get close to mount Sinai, let's they died...

They said let the Lord speak to Moses and then Moses speak to us...

Moses said to the people of Israel: The Lord will raised up someone like me, who God has chosen to talk to and who will say what God told him and what God does to the people of Israel, just like me, a Shepherd. You have to listen to him and do what he will tell you...

Someone like me a good Shepherd who can be in the presence of God together with his sheep...

To be in the presence of God and that's where he will be together with his sheep...

[Charlie744]

16 minutes ago, Slibhin said:

Lol

"Talk about Isaiah 53 but don't in any way bring up any other part of Isaiah to explain your answer".

Sorry, I mistook you as a sincere actor for a moment. Moving on now.

I have no idea what you are talking about! You refuse to discuss the verses … any verses in Isaiah… you dance around every attempt to discuss and learn the possible different interpretations of Isaiah… 

Nothing here! 

[JohnR7]

Just for the record. The Principal and the director of the High School I attended were both German "Jews" that excaped Germany right before the Holocaust because they could get a visa due to their education. The school I attended was 80% "Jewish" and they were very offended over the use of the word "Jew" or "Jewish".  

People who want to accuse others may want to read what the Bible says about bearing false witness. “Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account." Matthew 5:11

[Wayne222]

On 8/14/2022 at 11:44 AM, Slibhin said:

I always consult my rabbi if I don't know the answer to a question, so you may get answers slowly or quickly depending on my ignorance. As I already said it is talking about Israel and is not Messianic. All you have to do is read the other parts of Isaiah.

Isaiah 41:8

But you, Israel My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham, who loved Me

Isaiah 41:9

Whom I grasped from the ends of the earth, and from its nobles I called you, and I said to you, "You are My servant"; I chose you and I did not despise you. 

Isaiah 41:10

Do not fear for I am with you; be not discouraged for I am your God: I encouraged you, I also helped you, I also supported you with My righteous hand.

And so on.

G-d is talking to Israel in the singular. According to my limited research it seems most Christians have never read the Tanakh. Many who love to quote this verse do so without ever having read the rest of Isaiah, because to me the meaning is clear. The suffering servant is Israel.

You are correct that I don't care what the Old Testament says. Christian translations are not identical to the Tanakh and therefore are invalid to me. No offense to anyone.

       It says he made his grave with the rich man. When did Isarel make his grave with a rich man. It says my righteous servant. When and how was Isarel righteous to bear the sins of Isarel and justified many ? Isarel failed to be righteous. I am not saying this to cast anything to Jewish people. All nations have failed to be righteous. G-d could not find ten righteous persons in Sodom. There is no way Isarel as a nation is that righteous servant. Moses and Job was the most righteous of anyone born of women. Yet they failed. The righteous servant of Isa 53 had to be without sin. And is a person. A lamb given to sacrifice is not a nation of lambs but a single lamb. When did Isarel not open his mouth like a lamb going to slaughter ? This righteous servant did not open his mouth. He was cut off from the land of the living. He shall make his soul a offering for sin. So Isarel who was unrighteous was a offering for sin ? Not possible. It was the Messiah who offered up his soul for sin and was cut off. And prolonged his life by resurrection. I appreciate you taking the time to debate this. I am surprised you are on worthy. I watch many many of Rabbi Singer YouTube videos. He is very smart. But he has called Jesus dirty mouth. The way he put it if Jesus really said what they written in the Christian Bible then his mouth was filthy. But then he said he didn't believe Jesus said it. So he believes the new testament writters are making up words. Why would they? So they could be persecuted ? 

[Selah7]

Greetings, Slibhin.  

Here’s my contribution; perhaps we can discuss this a bit.

"But you, Israel, are My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, The descendants of Abraham My friend.

- Isaiah 41:8

Here, Isaiah foretells the birth of Jesus, the "seed" who will be born about 600 years later.

The Hebrew word for "Abraham" implies "the father of many nations." The "seed," Jesus Christ, who would be born through the lineage of Abraham, would bring salvation and blessings to all peoples.

Selah

[JohnR7]

29 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

The "seed," Jesus Christ, who would be born through the lineage of Abraham,

In Genesis 3:15 we read: "

15And I will put enmity between you and the woman,

and between your seed and her seed.

He will crush your head,

and you will strike his heel.c”

God is talking to the Serpent, but the "seed" is Jesus and the seed comes through Mary and Eve. That is why I say I would love to see the conversation between Mary and Eve when they meet for the first time. Even though they lived exactly 4,000 years apart. 

Abraham of course is descended from Adam. 

[JohnR7]

37 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

Isaiah foretells the birth of Jesus, the "seed"

Genesis 22:4 "On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance." Of course this is literal, but also symbolic. What did Abraham "see". Abraham did not have to sacrifice his son. God Himself would provide the sacrifice. God sacrificed His Son. Abraham saw all of this from a distance. 

[Wayne222]

2 hours ago, Slibhin said:

Unless you have read the entirety of Isaiah we are at an impasse.

Rabbi Singer is not the emperor of Jewish people. He is extremely well educated but I don't like his rhetoric towards non-Jews.

Jewish people do not believe in original sin. G-d also says human sacrifice is an abomination so the notion of someone dying for the sins of another violates a core tenet of Judaism. I have learned that people here are committed to believing this passage means the Messiah despite all the surrounding text showing otherwise. Therefore I don't see much value in debating the subject.

Ok why did you respond in the first place. You cannot answer the questions I put forth. I read all of Isaiah. 

[JohnD]

On 8/13/2022 at 2:25 AM, Slibhin said:

You are incorrect, the Tanakh and the Old Testament are not the same. The books are laid out differently and translations can be very different. Regardless the section you are talking about is discussing how Israel is treated by gentile nations.

And the direct quotes from the Chabad.org Tanakh that I have been providing verbatim???