Isa 53'and Jewish Rabbis

[Starise]

Let me introduce Matthew chapter 23. Incidentally the book Matthew is understood to have been written to the Jews.

This is what Jesus thought of the religious Jews.

1Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. 4For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. 6They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, 7greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ 8But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. 9Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. 11But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.

13“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.

15“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

16“Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.’ 17Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold? 18And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.’ 19Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift? 20Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it. 21He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it. 22And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.

23“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. 24Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

25“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. 28Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

29“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’

31“Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. 33Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Jesus Laments over Jerusalem

37“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’

 

[ayin jade]

14 minutes ago, Starise said:

Is a religion that leads people straight to hell any better?

That still does not make them a cult. 

Yes they need Christ. The Lord is not done with Israel. 

[Starise]

We may have to agree to disagree here. 

They are locked into what the rabbis says and they let him interpret the texts for them. By any other name that is a cult because it lets one man or a few men decide what something is supposed to mean for the rest of the group.

[Starise]

No matter what I say its seems to get bent into something else.

I have zero hostility to Jews, but yes, some of them are like the ones Jesus mentioned in Matt 23. Are Jews perfect human beings? Are we now holding religious Jews in charge of those under them above any reproach for any reason? 

I think we all know better than that. 

Why do some become protective of a belief system they themselves admit they need to ask questions about? I say go wherever the truth leads. This is not an attack on a people, this is a look at what the scriptures actually say. I have read the entire book of Isaiah, actually the whole bible. Both Old and New Testaments. 

[Wayne222]

17 hours ago, Slibhin said:

Well I'm an Orthodox Jew. If your perspective is to not care what we believe then:

Don't need luck 🙂. We are wash by the blood of Jesus and justified by G-ds righteous servant. We are going to be given immortality at Jesus coming. 

[Wayne222]

17 hours ago, Slibhin said:

There is nothing in the Tanakh to lead me to believe this has to do with anything other than Israel.

"But you, Israel My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham, who loved Me"

- Isaiah 41:8

 

In this passage the Lord refers to Isarel as my servant. In Isa 53 it is referring to a man not a nation. Like I said before Isarel cannot justify anyone because Isarel is not without sin. 

[Your closest friendnt]

On 8/14/2022 at 12:44 PM, Slibhin said:

I always consult my rabbi if I don't know the answer to a question, so you may get answers slowly or quickly depending on my ignorance. As I already said it is talking about Israel and is not Messianic. All you have to do is read the other parts of Isaiah.

Isaiah 41:8

But you, Israel My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham, who loved Me

I have to admire you, and I admire you a lot, because you stand by what you have received from your family.

But also because you want to discuss what you believe, not too many people can do that.  And definitely not the people from your beliefs, because the moto is to isolate them selves from the rest of the world...definitely you are a man with a mission and it is nothing wrong with wanting to reach out to people from your background wanting to bring them back to Judaism...because it is well known that they are People from your persuasion who have believe in Jesus Christ.. 

But back to the scriptures you put forwards for study in Isaiah 41:8 

Isaiah 41:8

But you, Israel My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham, who loved Me.

 ****This passage is about Israel-Jacob...whom G-d have chosen, and continues to identify him that he is talking about the Jacob whom G-d or the Angel from G-d gave him the knows that he had been chosen by G-d for especial mission and epitomized his word to him by giving him a new Name which is Israel...

And a note is taken that Jacob loved G-d...

G-d is telling us that Jacob loved him. 

There is another big point to consider that Jacob-Israel was mention as the seed of Abraham and not as the seed of Issac...I cannot help it and it needs to be brought to our attention in case we found out that there is some significance to that. 

The one think that we cannot get away is that G-d when he had chosen Abraham and set him apart from the rest of the world he also gave him a set of promises which he had to fulfilled...

And he also change his name from Abram to Abraham, indicating that Abraham was on a mission to be the Servant of G-d, or G-d through Abraham will bring forth his plan and he gave promises to him. 

There was a promise given to Abraham that it did not rest on him it did not rest on Issac, but as we can see it rested on Jacob who like Abraham was chosen for a special propose to bring G-d's plan to fruition which at the time it was made known to Jacob that he had a special blessing upon him, a blessing that it was given to Abraham but it was reserved for the special seed from him, and that seed was not Issac, and not Esau but it was Jacob, whom God had chosen before he was yet born, this special blessing it rested on Jacob, whom G-d had chosen and he changed his name to Israel to signify the beginning of something new, that in him all his children and all their children's children they will all and without exception be included in the blessings to Abraham...

This is it, from the children of Abraham only Issac was included and from the children of Issac the tweens only Jacob was included and with Jacob all his household was included and so we have the twelve children of Jacob, the twelve tribes of Israel of the Nation of Israel, regardless of their mother, which that also was significant for the children born to them, the children of Lea and the children of Rachel. 

Joseph who was percieved as dead by his brothers who had done injustice to him and who found that he was alive and was sited in the right of Pharaoh ruling the kingdom in his place in his name. 

As Wayne pointed out the events of what happened then it was a shadow of the things to come in the Messiah the Christ....

Isaiah 41: starts with:

 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by Your closest friendnt

[Starise]

Just curious. Why are we typing G-d since the term is only a designation for who He is? This isn't His name per se. 

If you notice I always try to remember any reference to Him with a capital letter as a sign of obedience and respect. I don't see the rationale for typing G-d. Not that it matters either way, but I don't see how we are less holy or spiritual if we don't type G-d. Only Orthodox Jews do this so far as I know.

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

I'm not an expert on this subject, but from the commentary I read about Isaiah 53, the interpretation of that chapter was always a Messianic passage. It was only after Christians attributed it to Jesus that one of the great Rabbi's around the 7th century changed the interpretation from one of the messiah, to one of them nation of Israel. I believe most if not all of the passages in there Old Testament that speak of a suffering servant are not referred to as the Nation of Israel. 

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

1 hour ago, Starise said:

Just curious. Why are we typing G-d since the term is only a designation for who He is? This isn't His name per se. 

If you notice I always try to remember any reference to Him with a capital letter as a sign of obedience and respect. I don't see the rationale for typing G-d. Not that it matters either way, but I don't see how we are less holy or spiritual if we don't type G-d. Only Orthodox Jews do this so far as I know.

I never understood that myself. God is a title, not a name. I have only seen Jews do that. I guess they believe it is somehow more sacred or holy to not use the word God. Just my two cents.