Ask Me Anything About Christianity

[Your closest friendnt]

2 hours ago, Starise said:

Oh there's a wookie .org? Cool!

The mind of any bible student tends to try and work through the various texts and meanings and make the pieces all fit together correctly, and we all mostly think we are going at it in an unbiased way UNLESS we are attempting to shoehorn a desirable answer over a correct one. I know you are not such a person and I think you bring up a good point.

In my studies so far, I have tried to avoid my inner bias that wants there to be a  time between when we are dead to when we are raised in those new bodies that we are all fully lucid. I don't want the answer I want. I want the correct answer.

If the text is literal we look at it a different way than if it isn't, and if there's any book where we really need to be on the lookout for this, it's Revelation. Much of Revelation is A. Not is sequential order and B. Not literal.

Much the same way as we need to analyze the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, we need to look at the meanings the text conveys.

Some have incorrectly said these are all tribulation saints. I don't read that in the text. These look to be martyrs going back from the beginning of Christian martyrdom.

 Rev. 6:9-11

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

Probably one of my first approaches to this text would be to look at what John observed at the opening of the other seals, were his other visions of seals opened representative, or figurative? This would establish the continuity of the seals and how they maybe should be viewed. I would also consider all other texts both close surrounding and in other places.

All of the seals are horses up until the 5th seal. The seals are said to cover eras and periods of time. The first 4 seals are depictions of events and in this case, there is a definite sequence. Jesus is the only one qualified to open the seals. Most will say the first horse is Jesus. But I recently heard one brother say he thought the white horse was the anti christ or man of sin. That's probably another discussion. I'll just say that since this is sequential, this is telling to me. Who comes conquering and to conquer in the beginning? 

Whether you see the seals as being larger swaths of history as many do, or you see them as shorter spans of time within a short count down to the end, I think we can agree the seals up until seal 5 all begin with a figurative horse tied to real events.

Horses are generally tied to battle and the powers behind it. These would be spiritual powers likely working through world powers that cause these things to happen.

Even though the 5th seal breaks up what was a parade of figurative horses, I don't believe we can discount some symbolism or representation in the 5th seal, unless we say that suddenly at the 5th seal everything is literal after being figurative. To be fair the horses are figurative. The events caused by the horses are not.

Compared to the prior 4 seals the 5th seal seems rather uneventful so far as the world stage is concerned. 

Every martyr since there have been martyrs has probably said this right before their head goes on the chopping block. The REASON for the wait here was because unfortunately, others are to be killed for the cause of Christ. Verse 11 tells us the wait will not be much longer. "A little longer".

In looking at the Greek words here, I'm going to say this passage is representative of a TESTIMONY. John is having visions and he sees an altar. The altar has deeper meaning. It's a place for sacrifices. These brave men and women have made the ultimate sacrifice, and are therefore at the altar. This emphasizes their position and the white robes further emphasize their standing. My reading the Greek rendering of the text leads me to the conclusion that this is much the same as when we say, the voices of the unborn cry out to us, or the example we have in Genesis where the Lord says the blood of Abel cries to Him from the grave.

There is a sense of injustice having been done, like the parable of the owner of a wine vineyard who send his workers to check the work. They are all killed, so He sends His very son who is also killed.

This is the injustice, the fate of the victims and the restitution that has been a long time in coming. 

God is ready to tread the winepress of His wrath on an evil unrepentant murdering world. The 5th seal is both a testimony and a reminder as to why the next seals and trumpets will be coming on the earth.

 

Bellow is copy and paste  part of the quoted post above: the poster wrote:

("John is having visions and he sees an altar. The altar has deeper meaning. It's a place for sacrifices. These brave men and women have made the ultimate sacrifice, and are therefore at the altar") 

 

The scripture rev.6:9 9 When he opened the fifth seal,

(In the context earlier is the Lamb who opens the seals.)

I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 

***This took place when John the disciple of Jesus was very old...by that time many of the believers had become martyrs of the faith. John must have a witness the believers dieing as Martyrs of the faith.

Jesus at that time shaw John and all the other believers what happened to them after their death....

The Jewish martyrs they were not gathered to Abraham...as children of Abraham they were supposed to be gathered to Abraham, they were not Gentiles they were Jewish, those who were Jewish...

What would that mean? As we see there is a change in the Inheritance after death of the Jewish believers in Jesus Christ...

Jesus had said, that Abraham show my day and he rejoiced...

Was Abraham and his children who were gathered to him relocated in Heaven?

Is this one of the messages in this passage of scripture?

 

[Dan Knight]

9 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Except THAT isn't what is written. 

It is written  this body produces a seed and to every seed, God gives a body.  

Doesn't say 'will give a body AFTER it has remained in the corruption, 

Where is it written ONLY THE SPIRIT of us is resurrected?  We are told a living soul is body and breath.  Do we cease to be a living soul even though we never die?  

Look how insane THIS COMES ACROSS.  

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

So, does the body lying in the corruption receive these things or does the breath bring it back?  HOW COME THERE IS NOT A WORD ABOUT THE TWO BEING BROUGHT TOGETHER?  Doesn't that bother anyone?  

Is ANYONE SEEING WHY no one is believing in GOD ANYMORE?  

We have two bodies. One for here and one for there.  Our first one dies but WE DON'T USE the one we were GIVEN SPECIFICALLY for the place we are going.  Instead it rests in the corruption WITH ALL THE DEAD so it can BE RAISED UP from there.   WOW, that's alot of resurrections. 


It is written IF IT COMES FROM CORRUPTION it isn't made immortal, does it or does it not say that?  Have I gotten that wrong?  Why won't anyone mention it?  

WHEN exactly did you die and resurrect?  When did that 'seed' come about?  When you were made a 'new creature' perhaps?  When you were saved?  


  

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

I don't understand your use of the word insane. Such a weird word to put into play in this discussion. 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Dan Knight
Orig seemed like anaccusations. Certainly not intended to be such.

[Dan Knight]

1 hour ago, Dan Knight said:

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

I don't understand your use of the word insane. Such a weird word to put into play in this discussion. 

For instance: Romans 8:22-23

²² We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

physical to understand spiritual. 

 ²³ Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Dan Knight

[Dennis1209]

11 hours ago, Starise said:

Oh there's a wookie .org? Cool!

The mind of any bible student tends to try and work through the various texts and meanings and make the pieces all fit together correctly, and we all mostly think we are going at it in an unbiased way UNLESS we are attempting to shoehorn a desirable answer over a correct one. I know you are not such a person and I think you bring up a good point.

In my studies so far, I have tried to avoid my inner bias that wants there to be a  time between when we are dead to when we are raised in those new bodies that we are all fully lucid. I don't want the answer I want. I want the correct answer.

If the text is literal we look at it a different way than if it isn't, and if there's any book where we really need to be on the lookout for this, it's Revelation. Much of Revelation is A. Not is sequential order and B. Not literal.

Much the same way as we need to analyze the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, we need to look at the meanings the text conveys.

Some have incorrectly said these are all tribulation saints. I don't read that in the text. These look to be martyrs going back from the beginning of Christian martyrdom.

 Rev. 6:9-11

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

Probably one of my first approaches to this text would be to look at what John observed at the opening of the other seals, were his other visions of seals opened representative, or figurative? This would establish the continuity of the seals and how they maybe should be viewed. I would also consider all other texts both close surrounding and in other places.

All of the seals are horses up until the 5th seal. The seals are said to cover eras and periods of time. The first 4 seals are depictions of events and in this case, there is a definite sequence. Jesus is the only one qualified to open the seals. Most will say the first horse is Jesus. But I recently heard one brother say he thought the white horse was the anti christ or man of sin. That's probably another discussion. I'll just say that since this is sequential, this is telling to me. Who comes conquering and to conquer in the beginning? 

Whether you see the seals as being larger swaths of history as many do, or you see them as shorter spans of time within a short count down to the end, I think we can agree the seals up until seal 5 all begin with a figurative horse tied to real events.

Horses are generally tied to battle and the powers behind it. These would be spiritual powers likely working through world powers that cause these things to happen.

Even though the 5th seal breaks up what was a parade of figurative horses, I don't believe we can discount some symbolism or representation in the 5th seal, unless we say that suddenly at the 5th seal everything is literal after being figurative. To be fair the horses are figurative. The events caused by the horses are not.

Compared to the prior 4 seals the 5th seal seems rather uneventful so far as the world stage is concerned. 

Every martyr since there have been martyrs has probably said this right before their head goes on the chopping block. The REASON for the wait here was because unfortunately, others are to be killed for the cause of Christ. Verse 11 tells us the wait will not be much longer. "A little longer".

In looking at the Greek words here, I'm going to say this passage is representative of a TESTIMONY. John is having visions and he sees an altar. The altar has deeper meaning. It's a place for sacrifices. These brave men and women have made the ultimate sacrifice, and are therefore at the altar. This emphasizes their position and the white robes further emphasize their standing. My reading the Greek rendering of the text leads me to the conclusion that this is much the same as when we say, the voices of the unborn cry out to us, or the example we have in Genesis where the Lord says the blood of Abel cries to Him from the grave.

There is a sense of injustice having been done, like the parable of the owner of a wine vineyard who send his workers to check the work. They are all killed, so He sends His very son who is also killed.

This is the injustice, the fate of the victims and the restitution that has been a long time in coming. 

God is ready to tread the winepress of His wrath on an evil unrepentant murdering world. The 5th seal is both a testimony and a reminder as to why the next seals and trumpets will be coming on the earth.

 

The book of Revelation is probably the most contested in the Bible. I appreciate having these discussions with different views. No wonder many churches have an aversion to teaching prophecy; look at what occurs on a forum, much less in a church. Some on a platform may even interrupt a sermon from the pulpit, argue their prophetic opinions, or walk out.

From the Anti-Nicene Fathers to modern-day scholarship, there are probably not two in total agreement on the book of Revelation. We all read from the same Bible, well, different versions and interpretations of it anyway. Yet, we all view it and the meaning differently; why is that? Some are downright adamant and hardcore in their hermeneutics.

The inspired writer of Revelation himself did not understand much of what he witnessed and wrote. It is evident by the Apostle John’s frequent questioning of the elders and beasts. An angel was sent to Daniel to interpret for him. That twenty-one-day delay is also fascinating to discuss.

The Apostle could not have understood, nor anyone else until the terminal generation of our day, the technology (computers, artificial intelligence, nuclear, fast transportation, etc.) and means of what he was writing, thus the symbolism. The symbolism used could be understood throughout all ages and times, and today we should better understand Revelation than any previous biblical expositor. No one knew how Israel could become a nation again after two thousand years; they only knew it would happen one day (May 14, 1948).

John and Daniels’s function was much like a stenographer officially recording a legal case in the future. Daniel is told to close the book until the time of the end, and John is instructed to write everything save what the Seven Thunders said. There is a lot of speculation on that also.

If the Apostle John did not know the exact meaning of what he penned, how can we interpret it? The books of Daniel and Revelation go hand in hand; the terminal generation will understand them best. There’s no doubt in my mind the book of Daniel has been unsealed in our generation. We see the “convergence” of everything prophetic unfolding in Matthew chapter 24, as it relates to the Tribulation and the book of Revelation.

Another tell that John did not understand what he was inspired to write was his friend and disciple Polycarp, along with his student Irenaeus, who also knew the Apostle. They, too, had to form their hermeneutics under the tutelage of John, evidenced by their writings.

I suspect John dare not give his thoughts and interpretation of what he penned for obvious theological reasons.

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; [emphasis added]

From the apostle John’s perspective, this is past, present, and future. My own thoughts are Revelation is written in chronological order, with parenthetical chapters inserted. Under that assumption it is not difficult to break the tenses down, and what is not historical and yet future.

So, we come full circle again. If they did not comprehend the symbolism, how are we to understand? I suspect by what we are witnessing today. On the verge of the written globalist plans, how they are being initiated and carried out. Check marks next to everything Jesus said about our times in Matt. 24.

Revelation uses and refers to more OT scripture than any other book of the Bible. To get a better context and meaning of the symbolism.

To understand, we are to be Bereans searching the scriptures daily. Pray for wisdom and understanding, watch, therefore, and: Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

From here on out, I believe the half-dark glass will settle and start clearing up.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

14 hours ago, Starise said:

All of the seals are horses up until the 5th seal. The seals are said to cover eras and periods of time. The first 4 seals are depictions of events and in this case, there is a definite sequence. Jesus is the only one qualified to open the seals. Most will say the first horse is Jesus. But I recently heard one brother say he thought the white horse was the anti christ or man of sin. That's probably another discussion. I'll just say that since this is sequential, this is telling to me. Who comes conquering and to conquer in the beginning? 

I agree that some of the seals have already been opened and the Four Horsemen are the beginning of sorrows leading up to the Great Tribulation.  I believe we are in the 3rd seal and on the verge of the 4th Seal.

1st seal/White Horse: World Wide Deception... And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. - Mat 24:4-5 KJV (RCC, Islam, New Age, Universalism, False Gospels, etc...)

2nd Seal/Red Horse:  World Wars (World War 1, 2, civil wars, uprisings, etc...)  And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet. - Mat 24:6 

3rd Seal/Black Horse: World Famine and Pestilences...and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these [are] the beginning of sorrows. - Mat 24:7-8 KJV

4th Seal/Pale horse represents the start of the Great Tribulation, its a culmination of all three previous seals (deception, wars, famine, plagues, and death all over the world) called the Great Tribulation. This is were the one world beast government and Anti-Christ/false prophet rise to power.  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened....

5th Seal/Jacob's Trouble/Great Persecution/Mass Apostasy) Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. - Mat 24:7, 9-11

6 Seal/Cosmic Disturbance/Signs in the Heavens: Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. - Mat 24:5, 7-11, 29-30 KJV

[Dan Knight]

David and Goliath..David picked up 5 smooth stones. Threw one at Goliath.  4 left. Why 4 extra stones? Just in case doesn't fit God's plans as I understand.  I've heard it was because Goliath had 4 brothers. Except that David killed none of them, I think, nor were they killed by stones being thrown at them.

My thoughts are the 4 horsemen of the book of revelation.  What you think?

[com7fy8]

On 10/5/2022 at 9:21 AM, Your closest friendnt said:

And all the other believers of Jesus who were devour by the Lions and those who were burned and those who were left unburied and were eaten by the birds and the wild beast and those eaten by the sharks they all will be found in the group of the dead in Christ... so Jesus Christ is alone in Heaven...what a lonely King...He is watching his children taken away from him...

What about Revelation 6:9? >

"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and the testimony which they held." (Revelation 6:9)

To me, this means there are ones who have died who now are present with Jesus in Heaven. Their bodies are not yet resurrected, though. 

And, by the way > we have > 

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

So, if we die while being one spirit with Jesus, we are with Jesus, spiritually. And we are with Him, now . . . one spirit with Jesus.

And if Jesus has been formed in us as our new inner Person, He is not far away from any of us in Christ > 

"My little children, for whom I labor again in birth until Christ is formed in you," (Galatians 4:19)

So, Jesus in us is with us through life and through death, I consider 

And the sharks can only get molecules from our bodies, but not us!

We put on Christ > 

"But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts." (Romans 13:14)

So, if we have Jesus in us, put on us, we ourselves will not be lonely . . . if our spirit within us is coated with Jesus in His love and glory and goodness.

And Jesus in Heaven has our Father and the holy angels, in any case, plus those four beasts and the elders of Revelation.

[com7fy8]

On 10/5/2022 at 10:15 AM, com7fy8 said:

When Jesus was "dead", was He not still alive spiritually??

And to this, Dan, you said >

On 10/5/2022 at 12:05 PM, Dan Knight said:

No.

So, it looks like you are saying, no, Jesus was not alive spiritually while He was "dead". 

But I can see how His body is what died, and He simply spiritually was alive in another realm.

So, in case you believe Jesus was spiritually dead, after He died . . . what do you mean by this? 

Spiritually dead, by the way, can be taken to mean a person is in sin away from God so he or she is not alive in God's love. Jesus was not spiritually dead because of sin, in any case.

[Dan Knight]

5 minutes ago, com7fy8 said:

And to this, Dan, you said >

So, it looks like you are saying, no, Jesus was not alive spiritually while He was "dead". 

But I can see how His body is what died, and He simply spiritually was alive in another realm.

So, in case you believe Jesus was spiritually dead, after He died . . . what do you mean by this? 

Spiritually dead, by the way, can be taken to mean a person is in sin away from God so he or she is not alive in God's love. Jesus was not spiritually dead because of sin, in any case.

New King James Version
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

[com7fy8]

On 10/5/2022 at 10:15 AM, com7fy8 said:

But the true meaning of "dead" would be that someone is gone so he or she can not ever return, right?

Being "dead" can mean not conscious in this life. When Jesus was "dead", was He not still alive spiritually??

 

On 10/5/2022 at 12:50 PM, Your closest friendnt said:

Yes to the first paragraph and no to the second and the third we need to discuss...

 

Well, Jesus has died, but now He is alive in another realm. So, He has been "dead" yet conscious in another life.

So, this can be so for humans, too, I would say. And we have how those souls under the altar in Heaven were able to talk, though they are "dead" as far as this life is concerned.

The body is physical. It can stop and even rot, or be dissolved by a shark . . . of course  But that doesn't keep God from having the person's spirit somewhere, and conscious.

The word dead can have different meanings.