Ask Me Anything About Christianity

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, Starise said:

I STILL don't see men getting a second chance after death if the rejected God when they were alive.

Neither do I.

[DeighAnn]

What I believe. 

If in the grave when Christ descended, those who become 'saved' will ascend  in spiritual bodies when Christ ascends (both Old Covenant bloodline and New Covenant gentiles)
1st resurrection

If DO NOT RISE, remain until after the GWTJ when the sea,  death, and hell give up the dead. 

EVER SINCE CHRIST shed His Blood, and paid the penalty 
Those who receive the GIFT of Salvation,  rise in their spiritual bodies, follow Him and return with Him
1st resurrection

Those who REFUSE the GIFT, descend, remain there until after the GWTJ when the sea, death, and hell give up the dead

AND

All those who never heard Gods Truth, therefore not able to accept nor deny the gift of Salvation, descend into the grave until Christ returns and then they are resurrected in the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, and for the next 1000 years are taught Gods Truth and then they will stand in judgment at the GWTJ and either be found in the book of life or die the 2nd death.   
(2nd Resurrection - have fear that they might not be found in book of life)



 

[Starise]

6 hours ago, OneLight said:

I see this part: "who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)  in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel." telling me that those who never had the law, or even heard about salvation, will be judged by Jesus by what was in their hearts, better said as the secrets of men. 

Since Paul is dwelling on the law here as a basis for judging sin, it might have been a mixed church in Rome, but suggests to me without commentary that these were mostly Jews of the church in Rome. Verse 14 is an explanation to better bring out the points in verses 12 and 13. The gentiles are used as an example here.

If I didn't know better I would say this whole passage is basically negating the "law".

I mean, if we have the law already in our hearts, why do we need written laws? We still need the law of God to use as a level to what is being described in some gentiles.

IOW, they don't have the law, but when they are held to it they pass the test regardless.

What is the standard?  or  law? To someone who hasn't compared other texts this would look a lot like a works based salvation, or are we really talking about salvation here? We know that there will be judgement to determine responsibility in the kingdom aside from our 'ticket' to paradise through the blood.

The law only accuses all of us that we can't make it on our own aside from God if the standard is perfect sinlessness and holiness. This text says that those who obey the law are declared righteous. Yet who obeys all of the law at all times?

[OneLight]

1 minute ago, Starise said:

Since Paul is dwelling on the law here as a basis for judging sin, it might have been a mixed church in Rome, but suggests to me without commentary that these were mostly Jews of the church in Rome. Verse 14 is an explanation to better bring out the points in verses 12 and 13. The gentiles are used as an example here.

If I didn't know better I would say this whole passage is basically negating the "law".

I mean, if we have the law already in our hearts, why do we need written laws? We still need the law of God to use as a level to what is being described in some gentiles.

There are two groups here; those with the law (Jews) and those without the law (Gentiles).  Those without the law, not knowing the law, do those things in the law by nature.  How is this???  Reading back in Romans 1:18-20, we see that God has reveled Himself through creation.  Even though they never had the law, and never knew about salvation, they did recognize God and was being led to do what was right.  How, scripture does not say.

1 minute ago, Starise said:

IOW, they don't have the law, but when they are held to it they pass the test regardless.

What is the standard?  or  law? To someone who hasn't compared other texts this would look a lot like a works based salvation, or are we really talking about salvation here? We know that there will be judgement to determine responsibility in the kingdom aside from our 'ticket' to paradise through the blood.

The law only accuses all of us that we can't make it on our own aside from God if the standard is perfect sinlessness and holiness. This text says that those who obey the law are declared righteous. Yet who obeys all of the law at all times?

Notice that the judgment will be according to the secrets of the heart, with their conscience bearing witness, not the actions through works or obedience.

[Starise]

10 hours ago, OneLight said:

There are two groups here; those with the law (Jews) and those without the law (Gentiles).  Those without the law, not knowing the law, do those things in the law by nature.  How is this???  Reading back in Romans 1:18-20, we see that God has reveled Himself through creation.  Even though they never had the law, and never knew about salvation, they did recognize God and was being led to do what was right.  How, scripture does not say.

Notice that the judgment will be according to the secrets of the heart, with their conscience bearing witness, not the actions through works or obedience.

Generally speaking, when I see these ideas pop up, it is to explain how peoples who never heard the gospel could be saved or enter the kingdom of heaven.

Usually induced by fear or concern that possibly people could "fall through the cracks" who never seen a bible or a missionary.

A few other thoughts are running through my mind here.  Most western countries assume that by sending missionaries to distant locations, the people they encounter will be ready and willing to soak up the gospel, yet we have people here not a city block from a central missions agency who have zero interest in the gospel. Missions agencies are in the business of going somewhere else when they should be looking out the back door.

The US is no longer a bastion of spiritual bounty, and she needs to take a good long look in the mirror at her own people. You need people who want to be ministered to.

It seems you are more than suggesting that we really don't need the gospel in places where they have never heard it. Why should we bother with missionaries then?

Edited October 18, 2022 by Starise

[OneLight]

54 minutes ago, Starise said:

Generally speaking, when I see these ideas pop up, it is to explain how peoples who never heard the gospel could be saved or enter the kingdom of heaven.

Usually induced by fear or concern that possibly people could "fall through the cracks" who never seen a bible or a missionary.

A few other thoughts are running through my mind here.  Most western countries assume that by sending missionaries to distant locations, the people they encounter will be ready and willing to soak up the gospel, yet we have people here not a city block from a central missions agency who have zero interest in the gospel. Missions agencies are in the business of going somewhere else when they should be looking out the back door.

The US is no longer a bastion of spiritual bounty, and she needs to take a good long look in the mirror at her own people. You need people who want to be ministered to.

It seems you are more than suggesting that we really don't need the gospel in places where they have never heard it. Why should we bother with missionaries then?

This is usually the reply I get when I try to discuss those who never had the chance to hear about God before passing away.  No, I am not saying that at all, yet there have been, and still are, those who, as you put it, "fall through the cracks".  The two, missions and those who died without ever hearing, are two different subjects.  We go and/or send others to obey/fulfill the great commission found in Matthew 28:19-20.  You are right in saying that this can be as simple as speaking to a stranger on the street, or it could be as difficult as sending someone into the isolation of the deepest jungles.  Yet, by doing so, we never can reach them all.  So, what about those who have died without hearing?  How do you think Romans 2:12-16 fits into this situation or do you not see a connection at all?

[Starise]

Since we are told there is literally no excuse for anyone not knowing God, I tend to believe their level of knowing Him needs to be fairly deep, or at least the potential for them to ask, seek and knock  because we are told that anyone who does will find the answers.

Yes missions is on a slightly different track here, however this is the way many see those who do not have the gospel as getting it, and maybe in some cases it happens in that very way. Big organized missions where the missionary gets a paycheck and small missions where it's a co worker of friend. Both are missions. We have the scriptures that sower recently quoted in the bible that indicate people without the gospel need someone to tell them about it. 

I believe everyone on earth will have the capability to know. If they rejected the missionaries, then that's no different than a westerner who has no interest in God. The opportunity will be given to all men either through walking bibles, printed bibles, or both.

In talking about the law, salvation is not mentioned and I think this is critical in this discussion because works based on laws are far removed from salvation.

I don't believe we will have people lining up before God who will say, " I didn't really know who you were or anything about you at all, but here I am in the ticket line to paradise". I am seeing justification through the law .vs salvation here. The blood MUST cover a person because there is only one way to God. Through Jesus Christ.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Starise

[DeighAnn]

If Gods will is that ALL come to repentance then it must be Gods will that ALL hear His Truth.  
and THE EXECUTION of that,  must be found in His written words

Certainly basic 'common sense' tells us those living in desolate lands,  for example WHEN Christ walked the earth,  are not to be 'thrown away' because of circumstances beyond their control at the time.  (not to mention those 10 lost tribes)

IF we believe THAT,  then we are DEFINITELY MISSING something because there is NO WAY THAT falls under RIGHTEOUSNESS, Justice, and GODS WILL, let alone GODS PLAN of SALVATION.    

Is that what THE SPIRIT of the WORD speaks forth?  Is that where the SPIRIT OF TRUTH is truly leading?   Doesn't the wisdom and knowledge of God tell us to KEEP ON SEEKING FOR THE RIGHTEOUS ANSWER when such unrighteousness is facing us? 

It would seem there are those who have become so concerned with the letter and definitions of the WORDS,  that the ENTIRE REALITY OF THE SITUATION IS being MISSED,   

THE EXACTLY the same problem those who were living UNDER THE LAW HAD.  So concerned with being RIGHT, they lost all righteousness.  So sure they were the 'chosen' ones that they got replaced.  HAVE WE LEARNED NOTHING?

Where is the WISDOM, AND GRACE, AND MERCY of those who are supposed to be 'ruling and reigning' with Christ,  when they can entertain the possibility of JUDGING A SOUL TO DEATH FOR NOT HAVING HEARD?    

What kind of  judgment says TOO BAD SO SAD, your life just didn't count LIKE MINE DID because you were born and lived at a time when it was IMPOSSIBLE for you to be presented with truth. LUCKY ME, un lucky you.  Better luck next time. 

OH BUT WAIT, there isn't even going to be a NEXT TIME 

WHY NOT? Because THE REALITY OF 'A LIFE' BEING CAST AWAY, through no fault  of their own, has become, on some level, not only considered to be OK and right and just, but is even DEFENDED as truth.  

Apparently OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR GAVE HIS LIFE, SO THAT WHOMSOEVER WOULD...be lucky enough to hear...  

HOW anyone can BELIEVE that the ALMIGHTY, ALL POWERFUL LORD GOD, creator of Heaven and Earth is fulfilling His wish that all come to repentance in this manner,  is BEYOND ME.  


Maybe a better plan would be, HAVING A DAY, in which THE DEAD
('dead' cause they never had a chance, through circumstances beyond their own control, to hear the words of Truth) 
could be resurrected out from the grave,
to see if they would POSSIBLY LIKE TO TRY
to get their names written in the book of life. 
 
AND IMAGINE, if you had the power to take away all false teachers and doctrines and evil influences, to give them the best chance ever,

WOULD YOU DO THAT?   

And what if you started that day out WITH a billion priests?

TALK about a good plan for GODS WILL 'that ALL come to repentance' to come closer to fruition.  

A day in which the LUCKY,
could teach the UNLUCKY.

To me, that would be a LOGICAL and RIGHTEOUS thing to do.  BUT ONLY IF IT WERE WRITTEN.  But if it was written then all

CONJECTURE and ASSUMPTION  would fly out the window.  

I guess the REAL questions are
WHAT KIND OF GOD DO WE SERVE?   Would the GOD who created us for His pleasure and purpose,  just 'toss out' unlucky souls?   Wouldn't that turn a JUST AND RIGHTEOUS GOD into an unjust and unrighteous God. 

I KNOW IF I WERE ONE OF THE 'UNLUCKY' ONES, I WOULD THINK SO.  


I don't know what precept on precept precept on precept verse by verse verse by verse...reading of His words  brought forth the lucky unlucky judgment, 

but they NEVER read that way to me.  But I'm sure I'm just rambling on again.  

 


 

[Dan Knight]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

If Gods will is that ALL come to repentance then it must be Gods will that ALL hear His Truth.  
and THE EXECUTION of that,  must be found in His written words

Certainly basic 'common sense' tells us those living in desolate lands,  for example WHEN Christ walked the earth,  are not to be 'thrown away' because of circumstances beyond their control at the time.  (not to mention those 10 lost tribes)

IF we believe THAT,  then we are DEFINITELY MISSING something because there is NO WAY THAT falls under RIGHTEOUSNESS, Justice, and GODS WILL, let alone GODS PLAN of SALVATION.    

Is that what THE SPIRIT of the WORD speaks forth?  Is that where the SPIRIT OF TRUTH is truly leading?   Doesn't the wisdom and knowledge of God tell us to KEEP ON SEEKING FOR THE RIGHTEOUS ANSWER when such unrighteousness is facing us? 

It would seem there are those who have become so concerned with the letter and definitions of the WORDS,  that the ENTIRE REALITY OF THE SITUATION IS being MISSED,   

THE EXACTLY the same problem those who were living UNDER THE LAW HAD.  So concerned with being RIGHT, they lost all righteousness.  So sure they were the 'chosen' ones that they got replaced.  HAVE WE LEARNED NOTHING?

Where is the WISDOM, AND GRACE, AND MERCY of those who are supposed to be 'ruling and reigning' with Christ,  when they can entertain the possibility of JUDGING A SOUL TO DEATH FOR NOT HAVING HEARD?    

What kind of  judgment says TOO BAD SO SAD, your life just didn't count LIKE MINE DID because you were born and lived at a time when it was IMPOSSIBLE for you to be presented with truth. LUCKY ME, un lucky you.  Better luck next time. 

OH BUT WAIT, there isn't even going to be a NEXT TIME 

WHY NOT? Because THE REALITY OF 'A LIFE' BEING CAST AWAY, through no fault  of their own, has become, on some level, not only considered to be OK and right and just, but is even DEFENDED as truth.  

Apparently OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR GAVE HIS LIFE, SO THAT WHOMSOEVER WOULD...be lucky enough to hear...  

HOW anyone can BELIEVE that the ALMIGHTY, ALL POWERFUL LORD GOD, creator of Heaven and Earth is fulfilling His wish that all come to repentance in this manner,  is BEYOND ME.  


Maybe a better plan would be, HAVING A DAY, in which THE DEAD
('dead' cause they never had a chance, through circumstances beyond their own control, to hear the words of Truth) 
could be resurrected out from the grave,
to see if they would POSSIBLY LIKE TO TRY
to get their names written in the book of life. 
 
AND IMAGINE, if you had the power to take away all false teachers and doctrines and evil influences, to give them the best chance ever,

WOULD YOU DO THAT?   

And what if you started that day out WITH a billion priests?

TALK about a good plan for GODS WILL 'that ALL come to repentance' to come closer to fruition.  

A day in which the LUCKY,
could teach the UNLUCKY.

To me, that would be a LOGICAL and RIGHTEOUS thing to do.  BUT ONLY IF IT WERE WRITTEN.  But if it was written then all

CONJECTURE and ASSUMPTION  would fly out the window.  

I guess the REAL questions are
WHAT KIND OF GOD DO WE SERVE?   Would the GOD who created us for His pleasure and purpose,  just 'toss out' unlucky souls?   Wouldn't that turn a JUST AND RIGHTEOUS GOD into an unjust and unrighteous God. 

I KNOW IF I WERE ONE OF THE 'UNLUCKY' ONES, I WOULD THINK SO.  


I don't know what precept on precept precept on precept verse by verse verse by verse...reading of His words  brought forth the lucky unlucky judgment, 

but they NEVER read that way to me.  But I'm sure I'm just rambling on again.  

 


 

Rambling on? No. You speak in an impassioned way.   You believe from the depths of your heart in what God has shown you.  

I suppose some may view your posts as rambling, and some may see it as aggression,  and others will see your stand as refreshing.  

1Tim 6 

Fight the good fight of the faith

[DeighAnn]

8 minutes ago, Dan Knight said:

Rambling on? No. You speak in an impassioned way.   You believe from the depths of your heart in what God has shown you.  

I suppose some may view your posts as rambling, and some may see it as aggression,  and others will see your stand as refreshing.  

1Tim 6 

Fight the good fight of the faith

   Thank you.  Thank you very much for that.