Witnessing to Jewish people

[Jedi4Yahweh]

1 hour ago, Slibhin said:

I'll extend you an olive branch.

Well thank you kindly.  

1 hour ago, Slibhin said:

It was not intending my comment as an attack. I was merely pointing out that every messianic "Jew" I've seen does not seem to follow any Jewish traditions whatsoever.

Well I don't follow rabbinical law Talmud/Mishnah, but I do follow Torah.  I keep the feast, the sabbaths, eat clean foods, and even wear tzitzits (but mostly during feast and sabbaths). I am pretty Jewish according to American standards.

1 hour ago, Slibhin said:

Exodus 20:7

You shall not take the name of the L-rd, your G-d, in vain, for the L-rd will not hold blameless anyone who takes His name in vain.

Your welcome. We have an express command not to use his name in vain, which means false oaths, excited/emotional utterances, blasphemy and so on.

We also base this on Deuteronomy 12:3

And you shall tear down their altars, smash their monuments, burn their asherim with fire, cut down the graven images of their gods, and destroy their name from that place.

In other words we avoid treating Hashem's name the same as a false god's like in the above fashion. We do not spells Hashem's name anywhere that it is likely to be altered or destroyed, including internet forums.

The reason we can write it in the Tanakh and Torah scrolls and othe

Those scriptures do not say you are not allowed to use God's name it says you shall not use his name vainly.  Meaning to use his name carelessly or wrongfully.  

We are given a clear picture of this:

Now an Israelite woman's son, whose father was an Egyptian, went out among the people of Israel. And the Israelite woman's son and a man of Israel fought in the camp, and the Israelite woman's son blasphemed the Name (ha'shem), and cursed. Then they brought him to Moses. His mother's name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri, of the tribe of Dan. And they put him in custody, till the will of YHVH should be clear to them. Then YHVH spoke to Moses, saying, "Bring out of the camp the one who cursed, and let all who heard him lay their hands on his head, and let all the congregation stone him. And speak to the people of Israel, saying, Whoever curses his Elohim shall bear his sin. Whoever blasphemes the name of the YHVH shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him. The sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death. - Lev 24:10-16 

Furthermore by removing Elohim's name that has meaning and replacing it with an empty title such as Ha'shem/The Name or Lord could also considered making his name vain [empty].

Edited October 24, 2022 by Jedi4Yahweh

[Jedi4Yahweh]

7 hours ago, Slibhin said:

Empty titles like Hashem?

I rest my case.

God's literal name (YHVH) is used in the Tanakh over 7,000 times.  I don't see anything in Torah stating we are not to use his literal name, we are just not allowed to use that name carelessly or wrongfully.

The Torah does not prohibit, even Mishnah confirms there is no prohibition.  This practice of removing his literal name and replacing with it Ha'shem or Adonai (Lord) is a Talmud tradition imposed on scripture. 

Are we to add or remove from the Torah?  

Here is a quote from Jewish Virtual Library:

Pronouncing the Name of God

Nothing in the Torah prohibits a person from pronouncing the Name of God. Indeed, it is evident from scripture that God's Name was pronounced routinely. Many common Hebrew names contain "Yah" or "Yahu," part of God's four-letter Name. The Name was pronounced as part of daily services in the Temple.

The Mishnah confirms that there was no prohibition against pronouncing The Name in ancient times. In fact, the Mishnah recommends using God's Name as a routine greeting to a fellow Jew. Berakhot 9:5.

However, by the time of the Talmud, it was the custom to use substitute Names for God. Some rabbis asserted that a person who pronounces YHVH according to its letters (instead of using a substitute) has no place in the World to Come, and should be put to death. Instead of pronouncing the four-letter Name, we usually substitute the Name "Adonai," or simply say "Ha-Shem" (lit. The Name).

 

Edited October 25, 2022 by Jedi4Yahweh

[DeighAnn]

On 9/25/2022 at 9:06 AM, Jedi4Yahweh said:

What confused me is there are two types of Messianic Jews:

1) Jews who believe in a future messianic messiah, but not Jesus.  

2) Jews who believe in Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah.   

Yes, many orthodox Jews reject Jews who believe in Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah as not real Jews.  They teach any Jew who believes in Jesus have accepted a false Messiah/Idol and has abandon/apostate the teachings of Judaism.  Its strange because you can be agnostic or atheist Jew but if you believe in Jesus your out!!!!

If this has been asked an answered just let me know and I will go read.  

If you know, how much of this prophecy do the Jewish people believe has been fulfilled?

24  Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25  Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26  And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Since I am asking, just in case, do you know if they were EXpecting a birth at that time of the Messiah?  What did they think of the wise men seeking a baby at that time?  Or the star in the sky the wise men followed?  Or Herods reaction?  Or the babies that were all killed?    Just might be a little more curious than I knew I was.  



 

[Dave-regenerated]

21 hours ago, Slibhin said:

I am an Orthodox Jew many of us, including myself, do not follow Kabbalah or integrate it into our lives. If you are going to convince someone of being brainwashed or not having an open mind, first figure out if it is you who does not have the open mind.

There is a big difference between an open mind and just believing everything you hear. I have stated what would convince me Jesus was the Messiah. What would convince you he wasn't? The fact that I am willing to consider people's case here is the opposite of a closed mind.

The irony here is even though I've clearly listed what would convince me, hardly anyone has even tried. Instead I get told I'm brainwashed, stupid, blind/defiant and rabbi's are all lying/corrupt. it's all aggressive insulting nonsense from frustrated people who can't make their case.

This either stems from arrogance, one believing they have it all figured out and I should be on my knees tossing everything I am out the window on their mere say so.

"I just told you what I believed, why aren't you immediately accepting what I say? You're so defiant!"

It also often comes from people who spend the majority of their time in a bubble. People who have very strong beliefs, especially in terms of religion or politics often seldom go out of that bubble. They only interact with people who share their views and therefore never get challenged to defend said beliefs. When they are finally in a situation where they aren't in that bubble, (it get's popped), because they have never been in an environment where everyone isn't telling them they are right the mildest pushback feels like a punishing rebuke. Because you've never really had to build your case you don't know how to and the insults/ad hominem comments follow.

You have already been given numerous and countless examples of how Jesus fulfils the prophecies of the Old Testament.

The reason you don't understand that or seem to see it is because you are not BORN AGAIN yet.  That means you have no experience of God, or "Hashem" as you call Him.  You have rituals, beliefs, and nothing else.  Paul was a Pharisee and he said the "god of this world has blinded them"  because "it is spiritually discerned".

[Jedi4Yahweh]

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

If this has been asked an answered just let me know and I will go read.  

If you know, how much of this prophecy do the Jewish people believe has been fulfilled?

24  Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25  Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26  And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Since I am asking, just in case, do you know if they were EXpecting a birth at that time of the Messiah?  What did they think of the wise men seeking a baby at that time?  Or the star in the sky the wise men followed?  Or Herods reaction?  Or the babies that were all killed?    Just might be a little more curious than I knew I was.  
 

Yes, there were many Jews expecting the Messiah around that time. Especially according to Daniels prophecies.

Daniels prophecy for one which stated that the Messiah would come be cut off after 62 weeks of 7 years from the order to rebuild the temple given to Nehimayah. That equites to 62 x 7 = 434 years after that order given.  Some say that equates to around 30AD which is around the time Messiah started his ministry and was crucified. It also says after another week the Sanctuary (Temple) will be made desolate.  If you calculate another set of 7 x 7 years = 49 yrs after the Messiah was cut off that the Romans desolated the (Sanctuary) Temple and cut off the sacrifices in 70 AD.   Dispensationalist will argue with me on this and say this 7 set of weeks has not happened yet, leaving a 2000+ year gap, but that make no sense at all.

"Then after the sixty-two weeks, the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end [will come] with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. "And he will confirm a covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations [will come] the one who makes desolate, until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, gushes forth on the one who makes desolate." - Dan 9:26-27 NASB20

Edited October 25, 2022 by Jedi4Yahweh

[Charlie744]

On 10/18/2022 at 8:46 PM, Slibhin said:

Implying that I am willfully defiant or stupid does not endear me whatsoever or incline me to give much weight to the person talking to me.

I don't personally care if Jesus fulfills Christian's idea of Messianic prophecy. Judaism is very clear on what the requirements for one to be the messiah are, and they have not changed to my knowledge one iota in 2000+ years.

- The Messiah must be Jewish, obviously.

- The Messiah must be from the tribe of Judah and a descendent of David. Since Jesus allegedly had no father he could not inherit a tribe. Jewish law is very clear you inherit your tribe via your birth father. Even if you are adopted one second after you are born, you still keep your natural birth fathers tribe.

- The Messiah must reunite the Jewish people and restore the tribes. The Jewish people were not even scattered at the time Jesus lived, ergo he did not do this.

- The Messiah must rebuild the temple. The temple was still standing when Jesus lived.

- The Messiah must establish world peace and bring knowledge of G-d to the world. Jesus did not do this.

Judaism has no concept of a second coming, virgin birth or original sin. A virgin birth has never been a part of Jewish Messianic prophecy and is not even in the Tanakh, Isaiah 7:14 is a mistranslation of "young girl".

Jesus dying for our sins also goes against G-d's own decree that human sacrifice is an abomination to him. Hashem also says we are each responsible for our own sins and cannot assume someone else's.

Ezekiel 18:20 in the Tanakh:

The soul that sins, it shall die; a son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, and a father shall not bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

You will never ever ever ever convince me or any faithful Jew that G-d has changed or altered his covenant. Hashem has said, repeatedly, that he always keeps his word and his covenants are binding and eternal. To claim he has changed or altered a single letter of the Torah is a violation of his very nature and would make him into a liar. Unacceptable. Nowhere in the Tanakh does it say his covenant has an expiration date, nor does it ever say "Stay tuned for future additions".

If you can reconcile this then I'm listening. If your answer is to insult me or imply we're all stupid/blind/willfully defiant/don't know our own beliefs then save your breath, I have no ears for that.

I don’t believe my thought on this one issue will be accepted by most Christians and I might have to say the same for the Jews - but for very different reasons, but I believe there WAS a New Covenant Jeremiah 31:31-34), but misinterpreted by the Christian community. 
This NC was NOT a change to the Mosaic covenant- that covenant from God could NEVER CHANGE, however, what did change is He would now bring that covenant right into the hearts and minds of His people. Meaning, no longer would the Jews be responsible for teaching His Word. The Jews failed to teach and preach God’s Word to the Gentiles. They were to be His Priests and bring the One true God to the entire world- but they kept Him to themselves (for more than a few reasons). The Messiah came to remove them (one reason) as His mediator and entrust His Holy Spirit to bring His Word to each and every man - should they choose to..(never forced). Same exact covenant, same God, same way of salvation but God would no longer entrust His teachings to any man, organization, whether His chosen people or not. This NC eliminated the possibility of failure for man (in general) teach His children (all mankind) He is the One true God- the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Prior to the Messiah 99% of the world believed in multiple gods, rats, whatever. Only the Jews knew the One true God but God had to provide a way for the 99% to also find Him. 
 

 

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, Jedi4Yahweh said:

Yes, there were many Jews expecting the Messiah around that time. Especially according to Daniels prophecies.

Daniels prophecy for one which stated that the Messiah would come be cut off after 62 weeks of 7 years from the order to rebuild the temple given to Nehimayah. That equites to 62 x 7 = 434 years after that order given.  Some say that equates to around 30AD which is around the time Messiah started his ministry and was crucified. It also says after another week the Sanctuary (Temple) will be made desolate.  If you calculate another set of 7 x 7 years = 49 yrs after the Messiah was cut off that the Romans desolated the (Sanctuary) Temple and cut off the sacrifices in 70 AD.   Dispensationalist will argue with me on this and say this 7 set of weeks has not happened yet, leaving a 2000+ year gap, but that make no sense at all.

"Then after the sixty-two weeks, the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end [will come] with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. "And he will confirm a covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations [will come] the one who makes desolate, until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, gushes forth on the one who makes desolate." - Dan 9:26-27 NASB20

Yes, I guess I am 'one of those',  but no matter.  

but since the timing was so perfect everything added up so well as far as the temple built and ready to go,

how is it reckoned that Christ wasn't the Messiah, SINCE no one else even comes close to footing the bill?  A mistake on Gods part?  even with Jesus changing time, Christianity STARTING in that age,  has never gone away,  which they themselves said would be the test of truth, right?  

As for the 'temple' destruction, I believe that was the prophecy of Jesus, not Daniels prophecy because if it would have had to do with Daniels there would not have been ANY gap at all, and the one thing no one can deny is there is an issue, be it 10, 40, or 2000 years.... 


"It also says after another week the Sanctuary (Temple) will be made desolate".

Is that what it says?  Going to look that up.  

I am not following the 7 x 7. 


And 'after' the weeks sixty and two shall be cut off Messiah, but not for Himself and the city and the sanctuary shall destroy the people of the prince who is to come (which prince came?) and the end of it with a flood and till the end of the war are determined desolations. 

And he shall confirm a covenant with many for week one but in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering and on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate and even until the consummation and which is determined is poured out on the desolate. 


 Does that make you think of Isaiah 28:14-22?  

 

7 x 7 I don't know where that comes from.  I understand the 490, I thought, so where does that come from? 

[Jedi4Yahweh]

2 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

7 x 7 I don't know where that comes from.  I understand the 490, I thought, so where does that come from? 

Its based on the Daniel's 70 weeks of 7 years = 490 of when the Temple was to be rebuilt till its destruction/desolation (490 years).   Each week equates to 7 years. 62 of those weeks is when the Messiah is cut off.  62 x 7 = 434 years, some say that comes out to around 30 AD.  That leaves 7 more week of 7 years.  7 x 7 = 49 years.  Which comes around the time of when the Temple was desolated by the Romans around 70 AD.

[DeighAnn]

7 hours ago, Dave-regenerated said:

You have already been given numerous and countless examples of how Jesus fulfils the prophecies of the Old Testament.

The reason you don't understand that or seem to see it is because you are not BORN AGAIN yet.  That means you have no experience of God, or "Hashem" as you call Him.  You have rituals, beliefs, and nothing else.  Paul was a Pharisee and he said the "god of this world has blinded them"  because "it is spiritually discerned".

NO EXPERIENCE WITH GOD?   Surely you jest.  

They are UNDER the unconditional covenant (S), so they are covered. 

But since they don't read the New Testament,  because they have been BLINDED for OUR SAKES,  MAYBE it is up to 'US',  to be the understanding party, and not make them feel bad for doing EXACTLY what GOD WANTS THEM TO DO and not what we are supposed to be doing.  

God is going to bring the two sticks back together,  but that comes at the end, how else would not a jot or tittle of the LAW not be changed?  SURELY the LOST SHEEP AREN'T DOING THAT.  

Maybe a refresher from Romans 11 is in order...got some good warnings in there for us.  BUT as to the BLINDNESS and the god of this world, was that really a statement of truth in this situation?   Cause it doesn't really have to do with them, does it?
2 Corinthians 4
1  Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;

2  But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.

3  But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them

THEY ARE NOT LOST, THEY HAVE BEEN BLINDED FOR OUR SAKES. 


25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27  For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28  As concerning the gospel,
(that GOSPEL is the GOOD NEWS OF CHRIST)

they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.

29  For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

[DeighAnn]

5 minutes ago, Jedi4Yahweh said:

Its based on the Daniel's 70 weeks of 7 years = 490 of when the Temple was to be rebuilt till its destruction/desolation (490 years).   Each week equates to 7 years. 62 of those weeks is when the Messiah is cut off.  62 x 7 = 434 years, some say that comes out to around 30 AD.  That leaves 7 more week of 7 years.  7 x 7 = 49 years.  Which comes around the time of when the Temple was desolated by the Romans around 70 AD.

I have that figured very differently.  

At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25  Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Isn't that 69 weeks that have taken place leaving only ONE week, 7 years after Christs crucifixion?   




26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.