Foreknowledge of God by Arthur W. Pink

[AdHoc]

6 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Okay, I mostly agree with your thoughts. By mostly I mean I do not understand some of your points. Let me ask and put it a little differently to understand what you are saying.

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Upon physical death of the body, our spirit returns to the Lord who gave it. Our soul will reside in one of two places for all eternity, with the Lord or Hell (followed by LOF). Depending on our personal relationship with Jesus and accepting his free offer of Salvation. I know, right now we are talking Salvation, not kingdom. Is this how you understand Salvation?

During the millennial reign, Jesus Himself is going to rule with a rod of iron. As with the parable of the 5, 2, and one talent. Those that produced fruit and increased for the kingdom receive rewards for their faith, trustworthiness, and service. Ruling over cities based on what they increased while in the flesh. All my commentaries agree, the slave that hid his talent was disobedient because of fear of the Master (he was hard) instead of love, and will be cast into outer darkness. Did this person have no wisdom?

Psalm 111:10 (KJV) The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.  [We can say this is works or lack thereof. ]

My understanding as a pretribulationalist, the only time we will be in the third heaven will be during the seven-year Tribulation. Perhaps this is where part of my confusion lies if you have a different view. Our eternal destiny will be located here on Earth as it was originally intended.

So, this leads to the difficulty I have understanding your thoughts. I take your meaning to be that not every born-again believer will enter the Kingdom of God, and rule and reign with Him. That leaves only one other place.

By this do you mean the “Kingdom of God” is not the entire planet? That this kingdom has borders such as the area promised to Israel, the one that the world will make an annual pilgrimage. Some are not allowed to enter those borders as alluded to above (the One talent).

Heaven is where the Lord resides, heaven will be on earth during the millennium. If we are not in Heaven with Jesus, we cannot be saved.

Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

You know, the more I am studying this, the more confused I am getting.

Some feel that this unprofitable servant was not a true believer. But it seems that he was a true servant, even though he proved to be unprofitable. The “outer darkness” of Matthew 25:30 need not refer to hell, even though that is often the case in the Gospels (Matt. 8:12; 22:13). It is dangerous to build theology on parables, for parables illustrate truth in vivid ways. The man was dealt with by the Lord, he lost his opportunity for service, and he gained no praise or reward. To me, that is outer darkness.

I suppose it possible like Moses, to be looking from the outside in? 

O.K. Your seeming confusion is not confusion. It is the transition from one system of belief to another because new evidence has come up. Let settle one thing first. According to all the mentions of a kingdom, is man involved in God's Kingdom where He reigns in heaven, or is man involved in bring God's Kingdom to earth. From Genesis 1:26-28 through God's command to Noah, to God's Covenant with Abraham, through Psalm 8, through Daniel, through Israel's restoration in Ezekiel 37 and Luke 1, through the so-called sermon on the mount, through Revelation 11, 20, 21 and 22, through the parables on the Kingdom, where is the Kingdom set up?

The answer is "Thy Kingdom COME, thy will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven". God made man for this purpose. Since God's councils are immutable, it will come to pass. See Revelation 22:5. When this Kingdom is set up as per Daniel Chapter 2, there will be three peoples on earth - (i) the ruling class, (ii) the serving class (for such a King will be served at length), and (iii) the subjects. Luke 20:36 says that the ruling class must (i) be found worthy to be this class, and (ii) will rule city by city.

The first 1,000 years
Now, let's be simple. All Christians are resurrected "when He comes" (1st Cor.15:23). Rulership is only for those worthy. So in a city you will have a co-king (for Christ retains the rule over all) and you have SUBJECTS. Who makes up the subjects? There are THREE judgments when Christ comes back.
(i) The Bema in the clouds where all believers who ever lived are judged
(ii) Israel will be judged after the Great Tribulation (Dan.12:1-2)
(iii) The sheep and the goats - "All Nations" - the survivors of the Great Tribulation
All are judged on their works. Israel and the living of "ALL nations" never leave the earth. The believer is raptured to the clouds, is judged and returns to earth (Rev.20). From each of the three groups immediately above you have two outcomes of Christ's judgement:
(i) The Christian is either found worthy to be a king over a city or he is cast out of Christ's presence and "hurt of the second death". The king will enjoy fame and pomp and the prestige of being Christ's Overcomer. The reject believer will live in a city but be excluded from fellowship with Christ, be in disgrace and be the laughing stock of all because he threw so great a reward away.
(ii) The Israelite will either be made famous and enjoy bliss and prosperity in his tribal land, or he will be a reprobate - the infamous (Dan.12:2). The Levite will serve the Lord Jesus Who will reside in Jerusalem. the Israelites will vet the Nations who pour into Jerusalem to honor and learn from, the Lord.
(iii) The Nations will occupy their cities under the rule of a co-king of Christ. He will belong largely to an agricultural society, serve Christ and his immediate king, and pilgrimage to Jerusalem to honor Christ.

The New Earth
Each man's activities will be the same on the New Earth, except ...
(i) The wayward Christian will have been chastised and exercised by it. He will be fit to be a king. Whether he is appointed king or not I cannot tell, But one thing is sure. With the White throne resurrection the earth's population will be massive. Revelation 22:5 allows for all believers to rule. I would put my money on the reject Christians of the Millennium to be restored because of Romans 8:29. The councils of God are immutable. Every Christian will be conformed to the image of Christ
(ii) Israel will no longer serve the Law. But I cannot be sure because on one hand the Law is said to be UNTIL heaven and earth pass, and on the other hand the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31 is an "everlasting Covenant". All Israel will dwell in their land and be the leading Nation and host to Emmanuel
(iii) ALL Nations will have resurrection bodies. Noah's Covenant is over. Sin (the sinful nature of Adam is no more). God's enemies are all subdued and compliant. Death is defeated by resurrection. Satan, his fellow angels, God's enemies and the demons will be in a state of agony - a living, everlasting memorial of God's justice
(iv) There is no more winter and summer. Rain feeds rivers and rivers feed the ocean. But there is no more ocean. It would seem that the weather and climatology will return to what Adam had with the oceans forming a "Greenhouse effect" in the sky, and watering the earth with dew. There will be no more curse on the earth. All men will "fill" the earth. Believers will rule them. The rod of iron is not needed as the sin-nature is overcome. "All families of the earth will be blessed". Those in perdition will satisfy justice on earth.

Think things through slowly. See if you can find a mistake in my appraisal. I have swum against the tide for two and a half decades. Nearly every point above has been subject to attack and debate, and though my opponents claim that dead men go to heaven and spend eternity there, none have produced scripture that plainly says so. I could have made a huge mistake. I believe that every statement is what scripture say - literally. Man is made from the earth for the earth. God's plan with man is rule of the earth. That the RULES are from heaven does not mean that men go to live in heaven.

[Dennis1209]

52 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

O.K. Your seeming confusion is not confusion. It is the transition from one system of belief to another because new evidence has come up. Let settle one thing first. According to all the mentions of a kingdom, is man involved in God's Kingdom where He reigns in heaven, or is man involved in bring God's Kingdom to earth. From Genesis 1:26-28 through God's command to Noah, to God's Covenant with Abraham, through Psalm 8, through Daniel, through Israel's restoration in Ezekiel 37 and Luke 1, through the so-called sermon on the mount, through Revelation 11, 20, 21 and 22, through the parables on the Kingdom, where is the Kingdom set up?

The answer is "Thy Kingdom COME, thy will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven". God made man for this purpose. Since God's councils are immutable, it will come to pass. See Revelation 22:5. When this Kingdom is set up as per Daniel Chapter 2, there will be three peoples on earth - (i) the ruling class, (ii) the serving class (for such a King will be served at length), and (iii) the subjects. Luke 20:36 says that the ruling class must (i) be found worthy to be this class, and (ii) will rule city by city.

The first 1,000 years
Now, let's be simple. All Christians are resurrected "when He comes" (1st Cor.15:23). Rulership is only for those worthy. So in a city you will have a co-king (for Christ retains the rule over all) and you have SUBJECTS. Who makes up the subjects? There are THREE judgments when Christ comes back.
(i) The Bema in the clouds where all believers who ever lived are judged
(ii) Israel will be judged after the Great Tribulation (Dan.12:1-2)
(iii) The sheep and the goats - "All Nations" - the survivors of the Great Tribulation
All are judged on their works. Israel and the living of "ALL nations" never leave the earth. The believer is raptured to the clouds, is judged and returns to earth (Rev.20). From each of the three groups immediately above you have two outcomes of Christ's judgement:
(i) The Christian is either found worthy to be a king over a city or he is cast out of Christ's presence and "hurt of the second death". The king will enjoy fame and pomp and the prestige of being Christ's Overcomer. The reject believer will live in a city but be excluded from fellowship with Christ, be in disgrace and be the laughing stock of all because he threw so great a reward away.
(ii) The Israelite will either be made famous and enjoy bliss and prosperity in his tribal land, or he will be a reprobate - the infamous (Dan.12:2). The Levite will serve the Lord Jesus Who will reside in Jerusalem. the Israelites will vet the Nations who pour into Jerusalem to honor and learn from, the Lord.
(iii) The Nations will occupy their cities under the rule of a co-king of Christ. He will belong largely to an agricultural society, serve Christ and his immediate king, and pilgrimage to Jerusalem to honor Christ.

The New Earth
Each man's activities will be the same on the New Earth, except ...
(i) The wayward Christian will have been chastised and exercised by it. He will be fit to be a king. Whether he is appointed king or not I cannot tell, But one thing is sure. With the White throne resurrection the earth's population will be massive. Revelation 22:5 allows for all believers to rule. I would put my money on the reject Christians of the Millennium to be restored because of Romans 8:29. The councils of God are immutable. Every Christian will be conformed to the image of Christ
(ii) Israel will no longer serve the Law. But I cannot be sure because on one hand the Law is said to be UNTIL heaven and earth pass, and on the other hand the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31 is an "everlasting Covenant". All Israel will dwell in their land and be the leading Nation and host to Emmanuel
(iii) ALL Nations will have resurrection bodies. Noah's Covenant is over. Sin (the sinful nature of Adam is no more). God's enemies are all subdued and compliant. Death is defeated by resurrection. Satan, his fellow angels, God's enemies and the demons will be in a state of agony - a living, everlasting memorial of God's justice
(iv) There is no more winter and summer. Rain feeds rivers and rivers feed the ocean. But there is no more ocean. It would seem that the weather and climatology will return to what Adam had with the oceans forming a "Greenhouse effect" in the sky, and watering the earth with dew. There will be no more curse on the earth. All men will "fill" the earth. Believers will rule them. The rod of iron is not needed as the sin-nature is overcome. "All families of the earth will be blessed". Those in perdition will satisfy justice on earth.

Think things through slowly. See if you can find a mistake in my appraisal. I have swum against the tide for two and a half decades. Nearly every point above has been subject to attack and debate, and though my opponents claim that dead men go to heaven and spend eternity there, none have produced scripture that plainly says so. I could have made a huge mistake. I believe that every statement is what scripture say - literally. Man is made from the earth for the earth. God's plan with man is rule of the earth. That the RULES are from heaven does not mean that men go to live in heaven.

Thank you for the detailed explanation; it is very much appreciated.

Well, some of your explanation goes against what I have studied and thought I knew. Of all the commentaries I’ve read, I have never heard or read that view.

Your assessment fits like a glove thinking about it so far. I will copy it and study it when I have adequate time.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

I was suspicious, but I always wondered why the tears took so long to be wiped away. It is not until entering eternity that sorrows and tears will be removed. I think your explanation also answers that question.

Thanks again.

[AdHoc]

6 hours ago, David1701 said:

In spite of your insulting insinuation about my abilities in English, which are well above average, for your information, your comments about Romans 8 are utterly devoid of sense.

Rom. 8:28-39 (KJV)

  28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
  29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
  30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
  31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
  32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
  33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.
  34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
  35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
  36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
  37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
  38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
  39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. 

 

---I have never before come across a Christian who does not realise that verses 28-30 refer to vital elements of salvation.  I have met Baptists, Presbyterians, Anglicans, Pentecostals, Plymouth Brethren, Independent Evangelicals, Charismatics, etc.; but, in all my years of being saved (since 1985), you are first one who has not understood that foreknowledge, predestination, calling, justification and glorification are all necessary links, in the chain of salvation.

I'm staggered that any genuine Christian could so misunderstand such a well-known and well understood passage.  Please feel free to quote any reputable commentaries that say that Rom. 8:28-30 is not about elements of salvation.

First, may I apologize if my comments seemed insulting. I understood that they complimented your English but left me baffled how you came to the subject of salvation with so good a command of the language. Your answer above leaves me more perplexed as you have still not shown me the word "salvation" in the whole Chapter. The word "saved" appears in verse 24, but all know it refers to the salvation of the body by resurrection.

The word "predestinate" refers to those who undergo a process of being conformed to the image of Christ.

The word "justified" is a man's standing before a judge who finds him guiltless.

The word "called" refers to a beckoning voice.

The word "glory" means "made apparent"

The text considers "those who love the Lord". From what shall they be saved? I humbly submit that the answer lies in Genesis 5. According to the law of "kinds" in Genesis 1:11-12, everything with seed in it will reproduce the same kind. But in Chapter 5 we find that Adam, made in the image and likeness of God (v.1), does NOT produce offspring in God's image and likeness. He produces offspring in HIS OWN image and likeness (v.3). Most students know what happened. Adam's nature underwent a fundamental change. This intrinsic nature is makes him singularly unfit to rule the earth. In a grand Type of the fiery serpents of Numbers 21, the tragedy is unveiled. With a deadly potion coursing through his veins, the bitten man is headed for death. He is not required to kill the pascal Lamb again. His status of Israelite, offspring of Abraham via Jacob, is not called into question. His problem is what is IN HIM.

The command is to LOOK UPON the Substitute Serpent of brass. And the result is NOT that the Israelite was "healed". It was that "HE LIVED" (Num.21:9). The death potion in his inner being was replaced by a system that gave LIFE. So when Nicodemus approached the Lord in John Chapter 3, he was informed that a new birth was what he needed FOR THE KINGDOM - FOR RULE. And this new birth gave a man the LIFE and NATURE of God - eternal life. Why? So that he may think, feel and decide like Christ. The way is that Christ be "lifted up" and BEHELD that would give the beholder eternal life. According to John 20:30-31, all that is recorded about Jesus was for this purpose.

This process of being changed intrinsically by BEHOLDING Christ, just like Romans Chapter 7 followed by Chapter 8, is alluded to in 2nd Corinthians 3. The Law that cannot change a man is set aside in favor of BEHOLDING Christ to be transformed from glory to glory (v.18). In this Chapter Paul starts verse 18 with "WE ALL". By this he means "the Church which is at Corinth" - that is, men already saved! The issue at hand is not avoiding God's wrath. It is to undergo a change to be LIKE CHRIST.

I respectfully submit that Romans 8 deals with men already saved - men who have the indwelling Spirit. Men who were called to a higher LIFE - one which would make them think, feel and decide like Christ. The closing verses do not allude to salvation, but to the security they have in Christ and in the love of God in a violent process. In the process of this transforming work, the old nature is to be brutally denied and cast aside. To this process SAVED MEN are predestined.

[Your closest friendnt]

4 hours ago, AdHoc said:

First, may I apologize if my comments seemed insulting. I understood that they complimented your English but left me baffled how you came to the subject of salvation with so good a command of the language. Your answer above leaves me more perplexed as you have still not shown me the word "salvation" in the whole Chapter. The word "saved" appears in verse 24, but all know it refers to the salvation of the body by resurrection.

The word "predestinate" refers to those who undergo a process of being conformed to the image of Christ.

The word "justified" is a man's standing before a judge who finds him guiltless.

The word "called" refers to a beckoning voice.

The word "glory" means "made apparent"

The text considers "those who love the Lord". From what shall they be saved? I humbly submit that the answer lies in Genesis 5. According to the law of "kinds" in Genesis 1:11-12, everything with seed in it will reproduce the same kind. But in Chapter 5 we find that Adam, made in the image and likeness of God (v.1), does NOT produce offspring in God's image and likeness. He produces offspring in HIS OWN image and likeness (v.3). Most students know what happened. Adam's nature underwent a fundamental change. This intrinsic nature is makes him singularly unfit to rule the earth. In a grand Type of the fiery serpents of Numbers 21, the tragedy is unveiled. With a deadly potion coursing through his veins, the bitten man is headed for death. He is not required to kill the pascal Lamb again. His status of Israelite, offspring of Abraham via Jacob, is not called into question. His problem is what is IN HIM.

The command is to LOOK UPON the Substitute Serpent of brass. And the result is NOT that the Israelite was "healed". It was that "HE LIVED" (Num.21:9). The death potion in his inner being was replaced by a system that gave LIFE. So when Nicodemus approached the Lord in John Chapter 3, he was informed that a new birth was what he needed FOR THE KINGDOM - FOR RULE. And this new birth gave a man the LIFE and NATURE of God - eternal life. Why? So that he may think, feel and decide like Christ. The way is that Christ be "lifted up" and BEHELD that would give the beholder eternal life. According to John 20:30-31, all that is recorded about Jesus was for this purpose.

This process of being changed intrinsically by BEHOLDING Christ, just like Romans Chapter 7 followed by Chapter 8, is alluded to in 2nd Corinthians 3. The Law that cannot change a man is set aside in favor of BEHOLDING Christ to be transformed from glory to glory (v.18). In this Chapter Paul starts verse 18 with "WE ALL". By this he means "the Church which is at Corinth" - that is, men already saved! The issue at hand is not avoiding God's wrath. It is to undergo a change to be LIKE CHRIST.

I respectfully submit that Romans 8 deals with men already saved - men who have the indwelling Spirit. Men who were called to a higher LIFE - one which would make them think, feel and decide like Christ. The closing verses do not allude to salvation, but to the security they have in Christ and in the love of God in a violent process. In the process of this transforming work, the old nature is to be brutally denied and cast aside. To this process SAVED MEN are predestined.

Thank you 

[David1701]

15 hours ago, AdHoc said:

First, may I apologize if my comments seemed insulting. I understood that they complimented your English but left me baffled how you came to the subject of salvation with so good a command of the language. Your answer above leaves me more perplexed as you have still not shown me the word "salvation" in the whole Chapter. The word "saved" appears in verse 24, but all know it refers to the salvation of the body by resurrection.

The word "predestinate" refers to those who undergo a process of being conformed to the image of Christ.

The word "justified" is a man's standing before a judge who finds him guiltless.

The word "called" refers to a beckoning voice.

The word "glory" means "made apparent"

The text considers "those who love the Lord". From what shall they be saved? I humbly submit that the answer lies in Genesis 5. According to the law of "kinds" in Genesis 1:11-12, everything with seed in it will reproduce the same kind. But in Chapter 5 we find that Adam, made in the image and likeness of God (v.1), does NOT produce offspring in God's image and likeness. He produces offspring in HIS OWN image and likeness (v.3). Most students know what happened. Adam's nature underwent a fundamental change. This intrinsic nature is makes him singularly unfit to rule the earth. In a grand Type of the fiery serpents of Numbers 21, the tragedy is unveiled. With a deadly potion coursing through his veins, the bitten man is headed for death. He is not required to kill the pascal Lamb again. His status of Israelite, offspring of Abraham via Jacob, is not called into question. His problem is what is IN HIM.

The command is to LOOK UPON the Substitute Serpent of brass. And the result is NOT that the Israelite was "healed". It was that "HE LIVED" (Num.21:9). The death potion in his inner being was replaced by a system that gave LIFE. So when Nicodemus approached the Lord in John Chapter 3, he was informed that a new birth was what he needed FOR THE KINGDOM - FOR RULE. And this new birth gave a man the LIFE and NATURE of God - eternal life. Why? So that he may think, feel and decide like Christ. The way is that Christ be "lifted up" and BEHELD that would give the beholder eternal life. According to John 20:30-31, all that is recorded about Jesus was for this purpose.

This process of being changed intrinsically by BEHOLDING Christ, just like Romans Chapter 7 followed by Chapter 8, is alluded to in 2nd Corinthians 3. The Law that cannot change a man is set aside in favor of BEHOLDING Christ to be transformed from glory to glory (v.18). In this Chapter Paul starts verse 18 with "WE ALL". By this he means "the Church which is at Corinth" - that is, men already saved! The issue at hand is not avoiding God's wrath. It is to undergo a change to be LIKE CHRIST.

I respectfully submit that Romans 8 deals with men already saved - men who have the indwelling Spirit. Men who were called to a higher LIFE - one which would make them think, feel and decide like Christ. The closing verses do not allude to salvation, but to the security they have in Christ and in the love of God in a violent process. In the process of this transforming work, the old nature is to be brutally denied and cast aside. To this process SAVED MEN are predestined.

Rom. 8:28-30 (KJV)

 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
  29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
  30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

---This is addressed to people who love God - the ones God has effectually called to himself.  It tells them why and how God works all things together for their good.  Firstly, the "why": this starts in eternity past, when God set his favourable, familial knowledge upon them, choosing them for salvation (foreknowledge - c.f. Jer. 1:5; 1 Pet. 1:2); then, also in eternity past, God predestined these people to be conformed to the image of his Son (another way of saying "to be saved" - Eph. 1:5,11); then, in real time, God called these people, effectually, to his Son (1 Cor. 1:23,24); then, these people having believed in Jesus Christ, they were justified (declared righteous, by means of faith in Jesus Christ - Gal. 2:16); then, these ones are glorified (this refers to the future resurrection (Rom. 8:17,23), but is worded as being in the past, because what God has determined to happen, is as good as already done).

Edited October 7, 2022 by David1701
missing word

[Alive]

AdHoc has some things I believe are correct, but is offering a twist that is not entirely correct. I may take time later to expound some. The derisive picture of heaven making a point does not do justice to that realm. We will function as Christ does in both heaven and the new earth.

Phil 3:20 I believe may be of some help. I think its 3:20.

[David1701]

2 hours ago, Alive said:

AdHoc has some things I believe are correct, but is offering a twist that is not entirely correct. I may take time later to expound some. The derisive picture of heaven making a point does not do justice to that realm. We will function as Christ does in both heaven and the new earth.

Phil 3:20 I believe may be of some help. I think its 3:20.

Yes, Phil. 3:20 is a helpful verse; although, a tricky one to translate well.

Phil. 3:20 (EMTV) For our *n3 citizenship exists in heaven, from which also we eagerly await for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,

*n3 "citizenship" Politeuma, Gk. Commonwealth, or state. Figuratively, of belonging to God’s kingdom, a place of citizenship, or homeland.

---I would prefer "commonwealth" to "citizenship".  The KJV has "conversation", in the obsolete sense of "manner of life".

Edited October 7, 2022 by David1701
typo