Is There A Missing Kingdom?

[Dennis1209]

Perhaps my following thoughts are in error. These thoughts will seem strange and out of mainstream thinking, but I would like to throw them out for comment.

Has anyone made any connections with the fall of Satan and creation itself? Other than Satan usurped Adam’s kingship and is now the prince and power of the air. I will specify what I mean shortly. Lucifer was of the highest order of angelic beings, a guardian cherub assigned duties and responsibilities in the Lord’s government. Lucifer is illustrated with reptilian features, with one of his names or descriptions as a serpent.

Whether it was Satan himself conversing with Eve, or he indwelled one of the creatures is open to debate. The fact remains Eve must have thought nothing is out of the ordinary, having a casual conversation.

Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: [emphasis mine]

Cattle and the beasts of the field are warm-blooded and have legs that distance themselves from the ground. Are there creatures that symbolically fit the description of crawling on their belly by appearance eating dust today? What about cold-blooded crocodiles, lizards, frogs, turtles, snakes, etc.?

Genesis 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. [creepeth = moving]

Above internal and external heat regulation is lumped together, with no divisions.

Thornes, thistles, briars, Venom, and blood-sucking insects probably did not exist until the Lord cursed the ground because of sin.

Archaeological evidence suggests that the globe was close to a uniform temperature at one time with no ice caps. With the thoughts mentioned above:

Question 1: During creation, two distinct animal kinds | or species were created (warm-blooded vs. cold-blooded), or was this part of the curse of Genesis 3:14? The introduction of cold-blooded animals.

Different interpretations of figurative or literal symbolism are argued about the Beasts (Cherubim) with four faces in Revelation. The face of a lion, calf, a man, and an eagle. I am convinced that the Lord has set angelic “watchers” over nations at one time that failed, among other examples of the assignment of watching over.

I think this symbolism could be plausible if they are Watchers over the creation kingdom: Lion, the wild animal kingdom. Calf, domesticated animals. Man, self-explanatory. Eagle, the fowl. Should this thought be accurate, where is (or was) the Watcher over the fish and reptile kingdom?

There is ample evidence in the Bible of angelic oversight and intervention in the affairs of creation and man.

Is there any merit in this outside of mainstream thought?

[Jedi4Yahweh]

There is some thought about the Serpent (Dragon) which the bible says he was a beast of the field (like cattle) and was the must clever of all beast and like you said are warm-blood animals.  This is completely different than what we call a serpent/snake today that are small and crawl on their belly, and eat large amounts of dirt with their food.  Did you know all reptiles crawl on there belly: snakes, turtles, lizards, alligators, etc..., and all eat large amounts of dirt with their food.  Some believe the Serpent was of the dinosaur species and when God cursed the Serpent he cursed all dinosaurs to craw on their belly's and eat dirt with the food and what we have today called reptiles is result of the curse on dinosaurs.  I am not sure if I buy into this theory but it does make sense regarding the "extinction" of dinosaurs. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Jedi4Yahweh

[Dennis1209]

1 hour ago, Jedi4Yahweh said:

There is some thought about the Serpent (Dragon) which the bible says he was beast of the field (like cattle) and was the must clever of all beast and like you said are warm-blood animals.  This is completely different than what we call a serpent/snake today that are small and crawl on their belly, and eat large amounts of dirt with their food.  Did you know all reptiles crawl on there belly: snakes, turtles, lizards, alligators, etc..., and all eat large amounts of dirt with their food.  Some believe the Serpent was of the dinosaur species and when God cured the Serpent he cursed all dinosaurs to craw on their belly's and eat dirt with the food and what we have today called reptiles is result of the curse on dinosaurs.  I am not sure if buy into this theory but it does make sense regarding the "extinction" of dinosaurs. 

Yep, dinosaurs, behemoth, and leviathan are interesting topics also. Many secular and Christian scientist's views abound about their extinction. But are all extinct?

The fossil record shows everything pre-flood was mammoth in size, plants, trees, insects, and animals. The climate favorable for growth and longevity was immense. Reptiles continue to grow throughout their entire lives, which is usually considerable. Biometric chamber experiments have shown plants and animals will grow to enormous sizes.

After the deluge, there was a quick change in the environment, and longevity rapidly decreased for everything it appeared. A crocodile today can live to be one hundred years old; it grows throughout its life and can grow to 15+ feet. How big would it get if it lived for 8-9 hundred years, as a man did according to the Bible?

Nimrod was a mighty hunter, a trophy hunter, if you will. The Bible does not explicitly say, but most probably, he was a hunter of men. But what better way to distinguish yourself by hunting mono e mono giant lizards? Perhaps they were hunted to extinction as with other species, or habitat extinction? Who wants a gigantic lizard living next door?

Whether superstition or lore, things representing dinosaurs have been witnessed in some isolated jungles by native tribes. I'll leave Big Foot out of it, LOL.

[missmuffet]

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Perhaps my following thoughts are in error. These thoughts will seem strange and out of mainstream thinking, but I would like to throw them out for comment.

Has anyone made any connections with the fall of Satan and creation itself? Other than Satan usurped Adam’s kingship and is now the prince and power of the air. I will specify what I mean shortly. Lucifer was of the highest order of angelic beings, a guardian cherub assigned duties and responsibilities in the Lord’s government. Lucifer is illustrated with reptilian features, with one of his names or descriptions as a serpent.

Whether it was Satan himself conversing with Eve, or he indwelled one of the creatures is open to debate. The fact remains Eve must have thought nothing is out of the ordinary, having a casual conversation.

Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: [emphasis mine]

Cattle and the beasts of the field are warm-blooded and have legs that distance themselves from the ground. Are there creatures that symbolically fit the description of crawling on their belly by appearance eating dust today? What about cold-blooded crocodiles, lizards, frogs, turtles, snakes, etc.?

Genesis 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. [creepeth = moving]

Above internal and external heat regulation is lumped together, with no divisions.

Thornes, thistles, briars, Venom, and blood-sucking insects probably did not exist until the Lord cursed the ground because of sin.

Archaeological evidence suggests that the globe was close to a uniform temperature at one time with no ice caps. With the thoughts mentioned above:

Question 1: During creation, two distinct animal kinds | or species were created (warm-blooded vs. cold-blooded), or was this part of the curse of Genesis 3:14? The introduction of cold-blooded animals.

Different interpretations of figurative or literal symbolism are argued about the Beasts (Cherubim) with four faces in Revelation. The face of a lion, calf, a man, and an eagle. I am convinced that the Lord has set angelic “watchers” over nations at one time that failed, among other examples of the assignment of watching over.

I think this symbolism could be plausible if they are Watchers over the creation kingdom: Lion, the wild animal kingdom. Calf, domesticated animals. Man, self-explanatory. Eagle, the fowl. Should this thought be accurate, where is (or was) the Watcher over the fish and reptile kingdom?

There is ample evidence in the Bible of angelic oversight and intervention in the affairs of creation and man.

Is there any merit in this outside of mainstream thought?

Does the Bible mention this kingdom anywhere?

[Marilyn C]

3 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Perhaps my following thoughts are in error. These thoughts will seem strange and out of mainstream thinking, but I would like to throw them out for comment.

Has anyone made any connections with the fall of Satan and creation itself? Other than Satan usurped Adam’s kingship and is now the prince and power of the air. I will specify what I mean shortly. Lucifer was of the highest order of angelic beings, a guardian cherub assigned duties and responsibilities in the Lord’s government. Lucifer is illustrated with reptilian features, with one of his names or descriptions as a serpent.

Whether it was Satan himself conversing with Eve, or he indwelled one of the creatures is open to debate. The fact remains Eve must have thought nothing is out of the ordinary, having a casual conversation.

Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: [emphasis mine]

Cattle and the beasts of the field are warm-blooded and have legs that distance themselves from the ground. Are there creatures that symbolically fit the description of crawling on their belly by appearance eating dust today? What about cold-blooded crocodiles, lizards, frogs, turtles, snakes, etc.?

Genesis 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. [creepeth = moving]

Above internal and external heat regulation is lumped together, with no divisions.

Thornes, thistles, briars, Venom, and blood-sucking insects probably did not exist until the Lord cursed the ground because of sin.

Archaeological evidence suggests that the globe was close to a uniform temperature at one time with no ice caps. With the thoughts mentioned above:

Question 1: During creation, two distinct animal kinds | or species were created (warm-blooded vs. cold-blooded), or was this part of the curse of Genesis 3:14? The introduction of cold-blooded animals.

Different interpretations of figurative or literal symbolism are argued about the Beasts (Cherubim) with four faces in Revelation. The face of a lion, calf, a man, and an eagle. I am convinced that the Lord has set angelic “watchers” over nations at one time that failed, among other examples of the assignment of watching over.

I think this symbolism could be plausible if they are Watchers over the creation kingdom: Lion, the wild animal kingdom. Calf, domesticated animals. Man, self-explanatory. Eagle, the fowl. Should this thought be accurate, where is (or was) the Watcher over the fish and reptile kingdom?

There is ample evidence in the Bible of angelic oversight and intervention in the affairs of creation and man.

Is there any merit in this outside of mainstream thought?

Hi Dennis,

I believe that the picture of what happened in the garden of Eden and the snake etc is symbolic. The `snake` just gives us an idea of how Satan operated - cunningly. we say `he runs as fast as a hare, `but we don`t mean he is a hare.

Now the 4 living creatures are the ministries of the Lord.

 

The 4 Living Creatures.

Then before the throne, in the midst, we are shown what seem to be `living creatures.` These are representations of the Lord`s ministries as to how He will bring restoration.

                         `Before the throne there was a sea of glass, like crystal.

                         And in the midst of the throne, and around the throne,

                            were four living creatures full of eyes in front and behind.

 

                                       The first living creature was like a lion,

                                       the second living creature like a calf,

                             the third living creature had a face like a man,

                           and the fourth living creature was like a flying eagle.`

                                                                                                           (Rev. 4: 6 & 7)

 

The 4 living creatures are Christ`s Spirit of life, shown separately as 4 but in reality blended majestically into one Royal Divine Person, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Christ the King –  (Lion)

Christ the Sacrifice (Heir) –  (Calf)

Christ the Mediator –  (Man)

Christ the Creator –  (Eagle)

 

For Christ to fulfill God`s plan, His covenant to man, He needs to function in each area.

 

Christ is given the ultimate authority to rule, (Lion)

Christ humbled Himself to be the ultimate sacrifice, (Calf).

Christ is both God & man to be the Mediator of both, (Man).

Christ has ultimate power to create all things new, (Eagle). 

 

 

Marilyn.

[Michael37]

6 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Lucifer is illustrated with reptilian features, with one of his names or descriptions as a serpent

Hi again @Dennis1209 

I believe Scripture teaches Lucifer was perfect in all his ways and did not act in opposition to God until he allowed pride of place to make him jealous of Adam and Eve due to their relationship with the Lord. Having decided to contradict God and deceive Adam and Eve he become Satan the adversary, a beginning that was motivated to cause the spiritual and physical death of previously perfect mankind.  

Satan means Adversary, namely to God, so it was Lucifer who was created perfect and he was not Satan until he opposed God in Eden, linked with the serpent ever since, both serpent and dragon elsewhere in Scripture depicted in representations of him, not forgetting that he is also capable of appearing as an angel of light (see 2 Cor 11:14). 

These two analogies with the king of Tyre and king of Babylon give us a timeline of Lucifer being found with iniquity in him and subsequent casting out of the highest heaven which he inhabited as well as Eden [ see this article What Are the Three Heavens? (blueletterbible.org)].

Eze 28:12-15  "Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.  (13)  You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created.  (14)  "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.  (15)  You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.

Isa 14:12-14  "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!  (13)  For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;  (14)  I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.'

[Who me]

8 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Cattle and the beasts of the field are warm-blooded and have legs that distance themselves from the ground. Are there creatures that symbolically fit the description of crawling on their belly by appearance eating dust today? What about cold-blooded crocodiles, lizards, frogs, turtles, snakes, etc.?

This is where using a modern English translation scores well abovethe versions of the AV.

in old english ' cattle ' meant any domestic animal.

 

In addition Satan fell and took with him his supporters, but he had no affect upon creation. It was Adams fall that brought about Gods curse on creation.

[Dennis1209]

10 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Dennis,

I believe that the picture of what happened in the garden of Eden and the snake etc is symbolic. The `snake` just gives us an idea of how Satan operated - cunningly. we say `he runs as fast as a hare, `but we don`t mean he is a hare.

Now the 4 living creatures are the ministries of the Lord.

 

The 4 Living Creatures.

Then before the throne, in the midst, we are shown what seem to be `living creatures.` These are representations of the Lord`s ministries as to how He will bring restoration.

                         `Before the throne there was a sea of glass, like crystal.

                         And in the midst of the throne, and around the throne,

                            were four living creatures full of eyes in front and behind.

 

                                       The first living creature was like a lion,

                                       the second living creature like a calf,

                             the third living creature had a face like a man,

                           and the fourth living creature was like a flying eagle.`

                                                                                                           (Rev. 4: 6 & 7)

 

The 4 living creatures are Christ`s Spirit of life, shown separately as 4 but in reality blended majestically into one Royal Divine Person, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Christ the King –  (Lion)

Christ the Sacrifice (Heir) –  (Calf)

Christ the Mediator –  (Man)

Christ the Creator –  (Eagle)

 

For Christ to fulfill God`s plan, His covenant to man, He needs to function in each area.

 

Christ is given the ultimate authority to rule, (Lion)

Christ humbled Himself to be the ultimate sacrifice, (Calf).

Christ is both God & man to be the Mediator of both, (Man).

Christ has ultimate power to create all things new, (Eagle). 

 

 

Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

Yes, as I mentioned, there are many thoughts on this. Many also think it represents the four Gospels also.

[Dennis1209]

8 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Hi again @Dennis1209 

I believe Scripture teaches Lucifer was perfect in all his ways and did not act in opposition to God until he allowed pride of place to make him jealous of Adam and Eve due to their relationship with the Lord. Having decided to contradict God and deceive Adam and Eve he become Satan the adversary, a beginning that was motivated to cause the spiritual and physical death of previously perfect mankind.  

Satan means Adversary, namely to God, so it was Lucifer who was created perfect and he was not Satan until he opposed God in Eden, linked with the serpent ever since, both serpent and dragon elsewhere in Scripture depicted in representations of him, not forgetting that he is also capable of appearing as an angel of light (see 2 Cor 11:14). 

These two analogies with the king of Tyre and king of Babylon give us a timeline of Lucifer being found with iniquity in him and subsequent casting out of the highest heaven which he inhabited as well as Eden [ see this article What Are the Three Heavens? (blueletterbible.org)].

Eze 28:12-15  "Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.  (13)  You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created.  (14)  "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.  (15)  You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.

Isa 14:12-14  "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!  (13)  For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;  (14)  I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.'

Good morning, Michael,

We all have our own thoughts, and mine may not be correct. With the analogy of the king of Tyre and the king of Babylon being the timeline of Lucifer’s fall, becoming the adversary Satan. It seems to me Lucifer was the adversary in the Garden and fell sometime before Eve sinned. The serpent was sinning by deceiving Eve, and tempting Eve, opposing the Lord for Eve to disobey and sin. Adam was not deceived.

Kingdom:  βασιλεία, ας, ἡ (Heraclit. Fgm. 52; Hdt.+)

            a term relating to royal administration

            ①       the act of ruling

            ⓐ        gener. kingship, royal power, royal rule (1 Km 15:28; 20:31; Sir 10:8; Jdth 1:1; Esth 3:6; 1 Macc 1:16 al. LXX; En 98:2; TestJob^[1]

My basic point is, there are multiple kingdoms, and kingdoms have kings and those appointed that oversee and watch over them. For example, Thy kingdom come (future), Watchers (c.f. Dan. 4:17), Satan’s kingdom, David’s kingdom, Gentile kingdoms, Antichrist’s kingdom, the animal kingdom (domestic-wild), etc. The Bible is loaded with them.

Daniel 4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

Watchers are symbolically described as having many eyes, they watch over and do not miss anything. They are the Lord’s administration arm.

 Deu. 32:8 When the Most High divided the nations, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the nations according to the number of the angels of God.² This should not read Israel (vs. 8) in the KJV. See the KJV footnote and the Dead Sea Scrolls. Israel would not be founded until centuries later.

As I outlined in the OP, in the creation account we do not know if God created cold-blooded and warm-blooded at the same time, or if it was part of the curse. Cold-blooded usually carries a negative connotation, an external reliance, and dependence.

The Beasts with four faces, having four or six wings, those covered with eyes that cover their eyes with two wings, and those that do not cover their eyes with two of their wings is a fascinating study. The eyes seem to symbolize they are watching someone or something intently, nothing escapes their attention. Wings carry the sense of swiftness, speed, and mobility. It is very interesting.

² Lancelot Charles Lee Brenton, The Septuagint Version of the Old Testament: English Translation (London: Samuel Bagster and Sons, 1870), Dt 32:8.

 

 

 

 

---

^[1] Arndt, William et al. A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature 2000: 168. Print.

[Michael37]

11 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

It seems to me Lucifer was the adversary in the Garden and fell sometime before Eve sinned.

Correct. It is reasonable to deduce that the close relationship between God and His newly created beings gave Lucifer motive to manifest the "multitude of iniquities" mentioned when he yielded to pride in his own glory, as the text explains. Here it is again . . .

Eze 28:13-18  You were in Eden, the garden of God. Every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz, emerald, chrysolite, onyx, jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and beryl. Gold work of tambourines and of pipes was in you. They were prepared in the day that you were created.  (14)  You were the anointed cherub who covers. Then I set you up on the holy mountain of God. You have walked up and down in the middle of the stones of fire.  (15)  You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, until unrighteousness/iniquity was found in you.  (16)  By the abundance of your commerce, your insides were filled with violence, and you have sinned. Therefore I have cast you as profane out of God’s mountain. I have destroyed you, covering cherub, from the middle of the stones of fire.  

• (17)  Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty. You have corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor. I have cast you to the ground. I have laid you before kings, that they may see you.  
• (18)  By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your commerce, you have profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore I have brought out a fire from the middle of you. It has devoured you. I have turned you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all those who see you.

The Bible is full of weird and wonderful things seen in dreams and visions, and the language of prophecy is full of metaphors and allegories, all of which have spiritual meanings for earthly application.

Here's a kingdom to consider, and the actions of an angel:

Rev 16:10-11  Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues because of the pain.  (11)  They blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and did not repent of their deeds.

The beast began rising way back to become the oppressor of God's People through Egypt, then Assyria, then Babylon, then Medo-Persia, then Greece, then Imperial Rome whose head has been wounded, and also Papal Rome. Seven Heads. One Beast. A metaphor of the wickedness of unregenerate humanity, not a literal creature.

On the subject of a missing kingdom, when Revelation was written Papal Rome was future, but there is an eighth kingdom to come, one that overarches the seven kingdom-heads of the beast to achieve Global Sovereignty before being destroyed by the Lamb who is accompanied by His called, and chosen, and faithful ones. 

Rev 17:9-13  This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.  (10)  There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.  (11)  The beast that was, and now is not, is an eighth king, who belongs to the other seven and is going into destruction.  (12)  The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but will receive one hour of authority as kings, along with the beast.  (13)  These kings have one purpose: to yield their power and authority to the beast.