Pangaea and Plate Technotics

[The Barbarian]

On 12/6/2022 at 5:17 PM, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

St. Louis, Missouri is not considered in an earthquake zone, to my knowledge.

The strongest earthquake in U.S. history was the New Madrid quake in 1811, about 160 miles away from St. Louis.

I once worked in the engineering dept for a large insurance company, and they had a insured a large project in Fayetteville Arkansas.   Apparently, the underwriter read about the New Madrid quake and wanted some reassurance that it wasn't going to all fall down.  

I was an ergonomist, but I also had a notoriety such that when anything weird or difficult came up, they asked me to look at it.    So, in spite of my quick read-up and discussion about how unlikely a quake was in any particular year, I was off to Fayetteville to see what they were doing about earthquakes.    Not much, it turns out.    Which seemed about right to me.   Eventually, I found a way to give them a probability of a detectable sesmic event in Fayetteville, and the underwriter was satisfied.

 

Edited January 6, 2023 by The Barbarian

[Dennis1209]

18 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

The strongest earthquake in U.S. history was the New Madrid quake in 1811, about 160 miles away from St. Louis.

 

Yep, I live 42 years directly across from St. Louis, MO., in Cahokia, Illinois. Saint Louis spent millions of dollars reinforcing bridges for the next overdue quake. If I recall, the New Madrid fault runs under the Mississippi river down to where I now live in Tennessee.

The predicted odds are so high of another large quake; no American insurance company will write a policy for earthquake insurance anymore. Mine got canceled, and I had to insure through a company that is re-insured by Lloyds of London.

The 1811-12 earthquakes are a fascinating study of what happened from the perspective of the power of a large quake. What would happen to a large population today with mega structures, roads, and highways?

[teddyv]

53 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Yep, I live 42 years directly across from St. Louis, MO., in Cahokia, Illinois. Saint Louis spent millions of dollars reinforcing bridges for the next overdue quake. If I recall, the New Madrid fault runs under the Mississippi river down to where I now live in Tennessee.

The predicted odds are so high of another large quake; no American insurance company will write a policy for earthquake insurance anymore. Mine got canceled, and I had to insure through a company that is re-insured by Lloyds of London.

The 1811-12 earthquakes are a fascinating study of what happened from the perspective of the power of a large quake. What would happen to a large population today with mega structures, roads, and highways?

Current building techniques and materials are pretty good in the face of a strong earthquake. Emergency preparedness and the resources that a country like the US can bring to bear in a disaster would also mitigate loss of life, in particular.

Just compare with the death tolls in developing nations that tend to build with concrete and brick. Haiti's Mag 7 earthquake some years back killed about 100,000 people. San Fran's Loma Prieta quake was 6.9, caused 57 deaths. (San Fran of course is built with earthquakes as ubiquitous).

[The Barbarian]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

The 1811-12 earthquakes are a fascinating study of what happened from the perspective of the power of a large quake. What would happen to a large population today with mega structures, roads, and highways?

Yes.   The 1811 earthquake did practically no damage, because no large structures existed in the area.   Today, it would be quite different.

 

[kwikphilly]

2 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

The strongest earthquake in U.S. history was the New Madrid quake in 1811, about 160 miles away from St. Louis.

I once worked in the engineering dept for a large insurance company, and they had a insured a large project in Fayetteville Arkansas.   Apparently, the underwriter read about the New Madrid quake and wanted some reassurance that it wasn't going to all fall down.  

I was an ergonomist, but I also had a notoriety such that when anything weird or difficult came up, they asked me to look at it.    So, in spite of my quick read-up and discussion about how unlikely a quake was in any particular year, I was off to Fayetteville to see what they were doing about earthquakes.    Not much, it turns out.    Which seemed about right to me.   Eventually, I found a way to give them a probability of a detectable sesmic event in Fayetteville, and the underwriter was satisfied.

 

Hi Brother!

I didn't know you were an ergonomist,I've always found it fascinating how you guys factor in human behavior into every scenario .... That's an awful lot to consider and so much responsibility for everyone's safety & well being to be based on your recommendation-I don't think I'd want that responsibility,that's what I call a heavy load!!!!! May I veer off Topic for a moment to ask how many years you did that & if you still have a hand in it?Gee,I'd love to hear more of the projects you were sent to analyze...

In His Love,Kwik

[The Barbarian]

1 hour ago, kwikphilly said:

I didn't know you were an ergonomist,I've always found it fascinating how you guys factor in human behavior into every scenario .... That's an awful lot to consider and so much responsibility for everyone's safety & well being to be based on your recommendation-I don't think I'd want that responsibility,that's what I call a heavy load!!!!! May I veer off Topic for a moment to ask how many years you did that & if you still have a hand in it?Gee,I'd love to hear more of the proje

It's a broad field.   I specialized in biomechanics, the area of how to safely and efficiently use one's body to do tasks.   The really touchy stuff is in the area of controls and displays.   The guys who lay out aircraft cockpits, for example, have to consider the best way to set up information displays to let the pilot and first officer see information and react to it, as well as to lay out controls to reduce likelihood of error.   Lots of lives depend on that, and there are some horror stories.

My focus was on material handling and how to most efficiently set up workstations to facilitate production and safety.    I once did a two-year study on the guys who deliver beer for a large brewing company.   Did biomechanical analyses and metabolic output calculations for them.   It is, as one manager remarked, "a young man's game."   It's demanding, but within the capability of most young American males.    Still, a lot of them get hurt, partially because they have to deliver into facilities that are poorly set up for such material handling.   

And much of the public has it completely wrong.   "Lift with your legs, not your back" is absurd, since every muscle from your feet to your hands are involved.     The key is to keep the load as close to your lower back as possible to minimize the leverage.   If bending your back does that, bend your back.   Likewise, "lifting belts" are at best harmless, and sometimes contribute to injury.    Observing drivers delivering product in companies that required them, they would often release the belt before lifting, just because it hurt too much to lift with the belt secured.  

Biomechanically, the data at that time showed that a significant increase in back injuries occurred when the compression on the L5S1 vertebral disc exceeded about 750 pounds.   I used a computer modely developed by Chaffin and Anderson that considered the load, body mass, and position to calculate the L5S1 compression.   Worked pretty well.

When I completed the study, we flew to the company HQ to discuss our findings.    They thanked us for the study and said it would never leave the C level offices.    They were worried about the implications for the union.    I mentioned to them that the UAW and auto manufactures worked together to come up with solution, using the ergonomists from both the union and the companies.     The CFO replied:

The Teamsters don't have ergonomists; they have lawyers."   

And that was that.    So some of the recs were implemented on the sly, others ignored.  On the other hand, I did have much better luck with smaller companies in reducing back injuries.  

We did get one maker of kids ride'em toys to reduce carpal tunnel cases by changing the way they trimmed mold lines from plastic parts; ultimately they made new molds so as to avoid the lines themselves, which was the best outcome.   Trouble is, building a mold that size was hugely expensive, so we came up with a way to modify the task and to monitor workers to intervene before irritation became full-blown CTS.

Edited January 6, 2023 by The Barbarian

[kwikphilly]

12 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

It's a broad field.   I specialized in biomechanics, the area of how to safely and efficiently use one's body to do tasks.   The really touchy stuff is in the area of controls and displays.   The guys who lay out aircraft cockpits, for example, have to consider the best way to set up information displays to let the pilot and first officer see information and react to it, as well as to lay out controls to reduce likelihood of error.   Lots of lives depend on that, and there are some horror stories.

My focus was on material handling and how to most efficiently set up workstations to facilitate production and safety.    I once did a two-year study on the guys who deliver beer for a large brewing company.   Did biomechanical analyses and metabolic output calculations for them.   It is, as one manager remarked, "a young man's game."   It's demanding, but within the capability of most young American males.    Still, a lot of them get hurt, partially because they have to deliver into facilities that are poorly set up for such material handling.   

And much of the public has it completely wrong.   "Lift with your legs, not your back" is absurd, since every muscle from your feet to your hands are involved.     The key is to keep the load as close to your lower back as possible to minimize the leverage.   If bending your back does that, bend your back.   Likewise, "lifting belts" are at best harmless, and sometimes contribute to injury.    Observing drivers delivering product in companies that required them, they would often release the belt before lifting, just because it hurt too much to lift with the belt secured.  

Biomechanically, the data at that time showed that a significant increase in back injuries occurred when the compression on the L5S1 vertebral disc exceeded about 750 pounds.   I used a computer modely developed by Chaffin and Anderson that considered the load, body mass, and position to calculate the L5S1 compression.   Worked pretty well.

When I completed the study, we flew to the company HQ to discuss our findings.    They thanked us for the study and said it would never leave the C level offices.    They were worried about the implications for the union.    I mentioned to them that the UAW and auto manufactures worked together to come up with solution, using the ergonomists from both the union and the companies.     The CFO replied:

The Teamsters don't have ergonomists; they have lawyers."   

And that was that.    So some of the recs were implemented on the sly, others ignored.  On the other hand, I did have much better luck with smaller companies in reducing back injuries.  

We did get one maker of kids ride'em toys to reduce carpal tunnel cases by changing the way they trimmed mold lines from plastic parts; ultimately they made new molds so as to avoid the lines themselves, which was the best outcome.   Trouble is, building a mold that size was hugely expensive, so we came up with a way to modify the task and to monitor workers to intervene before irritation became full-blown CTS.

Fascinating - so very fascinating! I wonder how many of my own battered bodies ' issues" can be attributed to someone ignoring ergonomist recs regarding tools,machinery & even toys I used throughout my lifetime?!I'm thinking of my little toy horse " Blaze" I'd hang on to those grips for hours( for years!) as I went berserk on that lil thing!

From gymnastic equipment,tools of the trade on construction sites and so many other things- somebody,somewhere must've said" hey,wait a minute- someone's gonna get hurt using that" huh?

Thank you for your acknowledgement & entertaining my curiosity👍

God Bless you,Kwik

 

[other one]

1 hour ago, The Barbarian said:

.   The really touchy stuff is in the area of controls and displays.   The guys who lay out aircraft cockpits, for example, have to consider the best way to set up information displays to let the pilot and first officer see information and react to it, as well as to lay out controls to reduce likelihood of error.   Lots of lives depend on that, and there are some horror stories.

I have/had some friends who were pilots in Viet Nam.  According to them, both the A6 and the F4's had so many different alarms showing on the instrument panel and different sound alarms that if one got into a real fight it was outright confusing so they found ways to just turn most of them off.  They could have used you in 1965

[The Barbarian]

46 minutes ago, other one said:

I have/had some friends who were pilots in Viet Nam.  According to them, both the A6 and the F4's had so many different alarms showing on the instrument panel and different sound alarms that if one got into a real fight it was outright confusing so they found ways to just turn most of them off.  They could have used you in 1965

The problem, I think, is that most of the guys who do displays don't get combat.    Pilots trying to kill each other (or pilots attacking ground forces shooting back) are essentially in a knife fight.   And that kind of things narrows one's focus quite literally; you shut out anything that doesn't relate to you killing him and saving your life.   I don't mean in your mind; your vision literally narrows to the target.   Your hearing narrows to exclude stuff outside the fight.   So peripheral things get shut out as annoyances.   That's what your friends were doing, and they were right to do it.

My boss, BTW, had flown Thuds in Vietnam.   Just about obsolete, but effective.  "Dumb bombs; smart pilots" he would say.

 

Edited January 6, 2023 by The Barbarian

[The Barbarian]

1 hour ago, kwikphilly said:

From gymnastic equipment,tools of the trade on construction sites and so many other things- somebody,somewhere must've said" hey,wait a minute- someone's gonna get hurt using that" huh?

Yes.   One of the things I would do on a survey, was to take a quick walk-through and note what kind of unauthorized fixes the grunts were using.   Often, they didn't work well (although some were ingenious), but they did show me what was going wrong with the process.   And many times, a bit of tweaking of those unapproved modifications was just the right thing.   Ergonomists say "listen to your body."    Bosses should listen more to their employees.   

Once I did some work for a city government which had a number of employees who had to stand at workstations, dealing with the public.   Lots of back and foot issues, absenteeism, etc.    Couldn't do stools, so I suggested a bar along the base of the workstation on which they could rest a foot.

"I'm not running a barroom.   Why would I want to do a bar rail?"

"Why do you think the bars do it?"

"Uh.... I guess so people will stay there longer... uh.... oh!"

The clerks loved it.   And the problems went away.