Could there be Multiple Raptures?

[AdHoc]

13 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

I want to discuss this a little further, but before I give my thoughts, I’d like to see if we are on the same page. In Revelation chapter 4, a door (gate, portal) opens to Heaven, and John is in Heaven. Do you surmise this is representative of the general harpazo of the church?

Given that the church is mentioned 19 times before this and not again until the end of the book. The sudden appearance of the 24 Elders.

I understand that the "harpazo" is split as per harvest. That is, if there are any men in heaven before our Lord opens the seals (which is the case in Chapter 4), they are a limited number. But to answer your question bluntly, I must say "NO" to your question. Here are my reasons:

John is raptured to heaven to view a future event. So he is not part of the rapture of 1st Thessalonians 4

But suppose you counter with the argument that the future event will have them and they should be there, I revert to the oldest answer - there is no scripture to give an indication

As the posting you answered says, I understand that the 24 Elders are the "courses" for the heavenly Tabernacle, and are angels. There is no indication in Chapter 4 of any other men in heaven. I will concede that the "new song" is a strong sign that there were saints, but if the 24 Elders are a priestly class, it would be normal that they carry the song of the saints from earth to heaven

If the 24 Elders are men, why were they already in heaven when John arrived. John is 5 times called "the disciple whom Jesus loved". Why would he not be part of the firstfruits rapture containing the 24 elders.

If the 24 Elders are men, how do they get their crowns before Jesus? To cast them down at the coronation of our Lord Jesus assumes that they were already wearing them. But if they belonged to a heavenly principality all is logical and correct.

But even more telling is that the Old Testament saints of Matthew 27:52-53 should definitely be in heaven but nothing is said of them. That is, there are men in heaven but Chapter 4 does not allude to them.

The reason that the Church is never mentioned again after Chapter 3 is that in Matthew 24 those that are "taken" break up the House! The last four Churches of Revelation 2 and 3 are warned of the Lord's coming while in their sins. Chapter 4 begins with "AFTER THIS" - indicating that the Lord has come for the firstfruits (Overcomers). The House of God thus divided. If it is divided it cannot be called a House anymore.

The most prolific teachers of a general rapture before the Great Tribulation were the Plymouth Brethren. Their contribution was great, but in this point they missed it. Yet, their influence was considerable and the teaching of both Christian universities and works of fiction have had an effect.

I say, that if the grammar is taken care of, that is, if the new song comes from the saints, and not the 24 Elders AND the four creatures (for the grammar joins them) in the song, then there is no proof of a general company of raptured saints in Chapter 4.

It all hangs on the grammar. And then, what you said is so true. We are about to find out who got it right - and it won't change a thing for us.

Go well bro

[Marilyn C]

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The Split Rapture explained by the Harvest

@Cntrysner @DeighAnn @Dennis1209 @Marilyn C @missmuffet @Vine Abider

There are four schools of thought about the Rapture. Each one has an argument and these arguments are usually more or less correct. But what three of the schools of thought cannot do, it build  the other schools’ thoughts into their scheme of things. They are:

1.  All Christians will be raptured just before the Great Tribulation

2.  All Christians will be raptured after the Great Tribulation

3.  All Christians must be prepared for tribulation as there is no Rapture

4.  The rapture is a harvest and all natural and Biblical harvests have multiple gatherings

The word “rapture” is not found i the Bible. The Greek is “harpazo” and means “caught away”, or “snatched away”. The Greek word indicates movement BUT NOT DIRECTION. The direction must come from the context.

The purpose of the rapture is to move a person, or persons, from one place to another. In the Bible it is primarily used to snatch the Church to the clouds to (i) be judged, and (ii) to meet the Lord in a safe place because the Great Tribulation is worldwide and has no safe haven.

The great debate concerning the Rapture is always difficult because the majority of Christians hold two Roman Catholic doctrines inherited from the so-called “dark ages” before the Reformation, and the which, have not dealt with. They are; (i) a man goes to heaven when he dies, and (ii) a Christian’s reward is in heaven. If these two doctrines are rigidly held, there is no feasible solution. A great contradiction blocks the road. It is this. If a man goes to heaven when he dies, (i) then he cannot be raptured as he is already in the sky, and (ii) if a man’s reward is in heaven he has no motivation for being ripe and mature in Christ.

The Lord gave seven Parables in Matthew 13 to predict the way things would go with His Church and the world in this gospel age of grace. In verse 39 He categorically said that the end of the age is a harvest. And in 1st Corinthians 15 the Holy Spirit has emphatically stated that resurrection is a harvest. In two scriptures, namely Philippians 3:10-14 and Revelation 20:4-6, a resurrection which is a REWARD is revealed.

In Revelation 20, saints that gave themselves for Christ’s cause belong to a “first resurrection”. the word “first”, within the context of martyrdom, means “first in importance or rank”. In Philippians 3 the Greek word is used only that once in the whole Bible and means “the resurrection out of the resurrection”. BOTH the “out-resurrection” of Philippians 3 and the “first” resurrection of Revelation are PRIZES, or REWARDS.

Romans Chapter 1 says in verse 20 that the things of the creation show the things of God. So a study of the harvest in nature will bring much. Then, we have a detailed Chapter on the harvest in Leviticus Chapter 23. Both reveal that although it is ONE HARVEST, there are at least THREE GATHERINGS. Two of the gatherings depend on RIPENESS or MATURITY. The third is purposely left for the underprivileged to harvest - the Gleanings.

In Leviticus 23 the Lord connects His solemn Feasts to the harvest.

1. The Passover is connected to the harvest of the firstfruits of the winter crop. The Offering connected with this was to be made with NO LEAVEN. It depicts Jesus Christ the sinless and Firstfruits of those who slept (in death).

2. Fifty days later God wanted a Feats of Weeks. Again the Firstfruts are called for but the Offering was to have LEAVEN

3. Some months later was the general harvest with NO SPECIAL ORDINANCES. The Feast associated with it was the Feast of Trumpets - a method of sounding a Trumpet to call a Gathering

Thus, BOTH in Nature AND i God’s Word, the Harvest is ONE harvest but at least THREE in-gatherings. As in nature, and the Bible, the end spurt to RIPENESS is characterized by a dry and hot period where the roots connecting it to the earth dry up. In Hebrews Chapter 5 and 6 God rebukes those who are not ripe in time.

Only ONE of the schools of thought above fits with history - that is, point #4. There is a resurrection and subsequent rapture for the Christians THAT IS A REWARD. The reward is
1.  To enter the joy and good pleasure of the Lord Who will be the most important Person on earth
2.  To be blissfully happy (to gain your “soul-life”)
3.  To be made a co-king with Christ to rule the earth
4.  To be made wealthy and famous. Your sacrifices in this age will be returned 100 fold
5.  To be BOTH Christ’s cherished Bride and Guest at the Wedding Feast

If you do not qualify for these things, there is no middle ground. You will be counted as having FAILED
-  You will be banned from Christ’s presence for the duration of the Millennium
-  You will have any spiritual gift you received from Christ REMOVED
-  You will be publicly rebuked by Jesus
-  You will be removed from your inheritance
-  You will be the laughing stock of the unbelievers
-  You will be desperately disappointed and regretful for the duration of the Millennium
-  You will be known as a “foolish Virgin” because you thought everything was for FREE
-  You could be heavily punished (stripes and cut asunder)
-  You will be banned from the Wedding Feast of Christ

Do not be fooled by thinking that you are secure. There are works BEFORE salvation that are wiped by Christ’s efficacy. There are works AFTER salvation that could land you in serious trouble (Gal.5:21, Eph.5:5). You WILL face the Judgment Seat of Christ (Rom.14:10, 2nd Cor.5:10). You WILL have to produce fruit (Jn.15). You WILL have to show how you multiplied your Talent and that you BOUGHT extra oil (Matt.25). You WILL answer for any hurt inflicted on another of Christ’s fellows (Matt.24). You WILL be banned from the kingdom for disobedience (Matt.7:21-23). You WILL be cast from Christ’s presence if you had no intimate relationship with Him in this age. If you do NOT bring forth FRUIT you WILL be cut off from the kingdom and be burned (Jn.15).

These are all easily understood, and are stated in plain language. They are all addressed to BELIEVERS. Your SALVATION from death and the Lake of Fire is accomplished by God and Christ. You had no part in that except to BELIEVE and CONFESS. To enter bliss, fame, wealth and stewardship in the Millennium, your WORKS will be scrutinized. The REWARDS start with RESURRECTION and RAPTURE. In God's wisdom He instituted REWARDS for voluntary performance.

Hi Ad Hoc,

You do err my bro.

1.     There is no harvest referring to the Body of Christ, it is of the earth. (Rev. 14: 15) We are not of this earth, but of Christ, in Christ. (Col. 3: 3)

 

2.     The 7 parables of Matt. 13 relate to the promises that God gave Israel.

            `Jesus Christ has become a servant of the circumcision for the truth of God, TO CONFIRM THE PROMISES MADE TO THE FATHERS.` (Rom. 15: 8)    

3.     The reason the Body of Christ is `caught away,` is because it has come to the unity of the faith. (Eph, 4: 13) and is ready to rule with the Lord on His own throne. (Rev. 3: 21) Not to `escape.`

 

4.     I Cor. 15 does NOT mention `harvest,` only likening a seed dying and then coming forth for us as a spiritual body.

 

5.     Phil. 3: 10 - 14. You are trying to link resurrection with harvest and that is not so. Harvest is ONLY connected to Israel and the nations for they are OF the earth. It is a harvest OF THE EARTH. And the Body of Christ is NOT OF THE EARTH, but is heavenly seated. (Eph. 2: 6)

 

6.     Rev. 20. These are the `first` resurrection, meaning TYPE OF - to LIFE. There are only two types of resurrections - one to life and one to condemnation. (John 5: 29)

 

7.     Lev. 23 the harvest. All to do with God`s dealings with ISRAEL.  The harvests are part of God`s time line for Israel. The different feasts, are God`s convocations.

`Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: “The feasts of the Lord, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, these are my Feasts.` (Lev. 23: 2)

 

8.     The Reward. Here you have a confused the Body of Christ and Israel.

            The Body of Christ will rule and reign with Christ on His own throne in the     HIGHEST. (Rev. 3: 21   Eph. 1: 20 - 23 FAR ABOVE ALL).

            Israel will rule on the earth.

           All those so called qualifications are false and not for the Body of Christ. They are all written to Israel.  

9.     The judgment/reward seat of Christ is for those things done in the power of the Holy Spirit and not for self-agrandizement, (to be wealthy and famous!!!! as you said) (1 Cor. 3: 11 - 15)

 

Ad Hoc, God`s word is NOT all about us, but about CHRIST. It is for us to read and see God`s purposes that all rulership in every realm comes under Christ.

There is the Body of Christ, Israel and the Nations.

Get those mixed up as you have done then you just get a list of guilty things you should have done. This undermines the great sacrifice and purpose of God.

 

  Marilyn. 

[Retrobyter]

On 10/29/2022 at 6:53 PM, Vine Abider said:

I've read a couple interesting books lately, putting forth the idea of more than just one rapture.  This thought seems to reconcile verses  appearing to show a post-trib rapture, while other verses  appear to show a pre-trib one.  One book I read, "Worthy to Escape," referred to these two raptures as "first fruit" and "harvest," going off the Old Testament practices depicted in a number of passages.  That is, some fruit ripened earlier, and was taken directly into the temple.  However, the harvest fruit required the full summer's heat to ripen. 

Has this viewpoint been discussed on here before and is there merit to it?

Shalom, Vine Abider.

The word translated as "rapture," the Greek word "harpazoo,"  as I'm sure someone has noted, means "I seize" or "I snatch away" or "I loot." It does NOT imply the word "up!" So, the REAL question is, to where would they be "snatched away?" If one, say a pretribulational rapturist for instance, says, "to Heaven," then one must show a reason for such a trip, and one must also define the word "Heaven." It is most certainly NOT to get them out of the way, so God can punish the rest of humanity upon the earth!

First, that is NOT God's goal.

Peter told us, 

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

He also doesn't punish until He has first judged!

Paul said,

1 Corinthians 4:1-5 (KJV)

1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

 

Second, we are told that we shall go THROUGH tribulation unscathed!

There are only fourteen (14) verse locations in Scripture that use this word in one form or another: Matthew 11:12; 12:29; 13:19; John 6:15; 10:12, 28, 29; Acts 8:39; 23:10; 2 Corinthians 12:2, 4; 1 Thessalonians 4:17; Jude 1:23; and Revelation 12:5.

Respectively, the Greek words employed (transliterated) are harpazousin, harpasai, harpazei, harpazein, harpazei, harpasei, harpazein, heerpasen, harpasai, harpagenta, heerpagee, harpageesometha, harpazontes, and heerpasthee. (A single "e" is an epsilon, and a double "ee" is an eta.) Fourteen are not too much; so, here are the verses:

1) Matthew 11:12 (KJV)

12 "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force (Greek: harpazousin = 'seize')."

2) Matthew 12:29 (KJV)

29 "Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil (Greek: harpasai = 'to plunder') his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house."

3) Matthew 13:19 (KJV)

19 "When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth itnot, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away (Greek: harpazei = 'snatches away') that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side."

4) John 6:15 (KJV)

15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force (Greek: harpazein = "to seize"), to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

5) John 10:12 (KJV)

12 "But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth (harpazei = 'snatches') them, and scattereth the sheep."

6) John 10:28 (KJV)

28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck (Greek: harpasei = 'will seize') them out of my hand."

7) John 10:29 (KJV)

29 "My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck (Greek: harpazein = "to seize") them out of my Father's hand."

8) Acts 8:39 (KJV)

39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away (Greek: heerpasen = "carried away") Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

9) Acts 23:10 (KJV)

10 And when there arose a great dissension, the chief captain, fearing lest Paul should have been pulled in pieces of them, commanded the soldiers to go down, and to take him by force (Greek: harpasai = "to take by force") from among them, and to bring him into the castle.

10) 2 Corinthians 12:2 (KJV)

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up (Greek: harpagenta = "having been seized away") to the third heaven.

11) 2 Corinthians 12:4 (KJV)

4 How that he was caught up (Greek: heerpagee = "he was seized away") into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

12) 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV)

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (Greek: harpageesometha = "will be seized away") together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 

13) Jude 1:23 (KJV)

23 And others save with fear, pulling (Greek: harpazontes = "snatching") them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

14) Revelation 12:5 (KJV)

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up (Greek: heerpasthee = "was seized away") unto God, and to his throne

In neither 2 Corinthians 12 nor in 1 Thessalonians 4 are we rising any higher than the CLOUDS, the AIR, the SKY, the ATMOSPHERE of this planet! The Latin word, when translating the Greek of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 into the Latin Vulgate, was "rapiemur":

I Thessalonicenses 4:17

17 deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus.

The Latin Vulgate was translated from the original languages into Latin by Jerome in A.D. 405. For over a millennium, it remained as the preferred translation of the church. This version of the Bible is in the public domain.

"Rapiemur" is the 1st-person, plural, future, passive, indicative form of "Rapere," which also means "to snatch, grap, or take away."

It was from THIS word that we get the English word "rapture" (an Anglicized spelling of "Rapturus," the future, active participle of the same word).

My point is this: Not in 2 Corinthians 12:2 or 12:4 or 1 Thessalonians 4:17 does one find the word "up" in the verse!

The typical way that God works in the life of a prophet is to take that prophet to the FUTURE, not to "Heaven!" They are snatched away in TIME to see visions of what will be!

[Retrobyter]

On 10/29/2022 at 7:05 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Vine Abider,

The Feasts were given to Israel by God as a calendar of His dealings with them. Although we are blessed with Christ`s work in Passover and Pentecost, the Feasts and those following are not about us.

However, that does not mean we shouldn`t study them. So yes, they have merit for establishing God`s great purposes for Israel and the nations, and our absence from those later Feast times. 

Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn C.

Have you not considered that we - both Jews and Gentiles -are ONE people for God's Kingdom here on earth?

"Rapture," coming from the Latin word "Rapere," only means "to be snatched away, to be seized, or to be taken away," and does NOT mean to go "UP!" Nor does the Greek word "harpazoo" (using "oo" for an omega), meaning the same thing!

While the use of the word does tell us that we will go "into the clouds" and "into the air," there is NOTHING in ANY of the verses that suggest we go any farther up!

Here's something else to consider:

Do you think it is just to punish an individual for a crime before that person has been judged for that crime? If not, then why believe in "Hell?" Isn't that punishment before the person has been judged?

I believe that it is unfortunate (bordering on criminal) that the translation of "hadees," "tartaros," and "ge-enna" are ALL "hell" in some versions of the English Bible.

Yeeshuwa`s account of the rich man in Luke 16 is NOT about an individual between death and resurrection! The context tells us that this man has already been resurrected, judged, and sentenced! The use of the word "hadees" is NOT the Greek myth of the place of the dead; it is merely the Greek word meaning the "UNSEEN!" It's similar to how we talk about the "UNKNOWN!"

Now, I know that Yeeshuwa` said,

John 3:16-18 (KJV)

16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved (rescued; delivered). 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

But, does the person already know that? OR does He stand in trial at the Great White Throne Judgment to find that out? What's the purpose of the GWTJ, if the person is already suffering because he is "condemned already?"

In the Scriptures we are told,

Ecclesiastes 9:10 (KJV)

10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

and David said,

Psalm 6:4-5 (KJV)

4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul (air-breathing creature): oh save (rescue; deliver) me for thy mercies' sake. 5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Even Kefa ("Peter") said on the day of Shavu'owt ("Pentecost") concerning David:

Acts 2:29-36 (KJV)

29 "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ (the Messiah) to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ (the resurrection of the Messiah), that

'his soul (air-breathing creature) was not left in hell (the grave), neither his flesh did see corruption.' (Psalm 16:10)

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself,

"'The LORD (YHWH) said unto my Lord (my Sir), "Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool."' (Psalm 110:1)

36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord (Master) and Christ (Messiah)."

[Dennis1209]

14 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

I hadn't thought of it like that . . .  No others apart from the 24 elders are mentioned in chapter 4 that I see. 

What is the reference to the church specifically at the end of Revelation?  (my thinking is the ekklesia is alluded to in various other ways in the remaining chapters.

Nineteen times in Revelation chapters 1-3, the church is mentioned. Then complete silence of the church until Revelation 22:16 (ekklēsía). 

In my opinion, the 24 Elders represent a pre-Tribulation harpazo between chapters three and four. Twelve is the biblical number for governmental perfection, and twenty-four represents the priesthood.

12 + 12 = 24, My thinking represents the Old and New Testament, the 12 Gates, and the twelve Foundations of the New Jerusalem. 

Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; [past, present, and future in John’s Day]

John covers the “hast seen” and things “which are” in chapters one through three. Chapter four begins the prophetic future in John’s Day and our own. As I see it, Revelation chapter 6 begins the first 3-1/2 years (Daniel’s 70^th week) of the Tribulation, starting when the Antichrist confirms a covenant with Israel and the many. The Great Tribulation (the time of Jacob’s trouble) begins with the A.O.D, the last 3-1/2 years that is the Great Tribulation.

It appears to me that Israel is living in relative peace and safety during the first half of the Tribulation while the rest of the world is falling apart with war, famine, etc., of the Lawless One’s antics.

@AdHoc makes an excellent hermeneutic argument that is difficult to disagree with on my part, contemplating it so far.

[AdHoc]

13 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

You do err my bro.

1.     There is no harvest referring to the Body of Christ, it is of the earth. (Rev. 14: 15) We are not of this earth, but of Christ, in Christ. (Col. 3: 3)

 

2.     The 7 parables of Matt. 13 relate to the promises that God gave Israel.

            `Jesus Christ has become a servant of the circumcision for the truth of God, TO CONFIRM THE PROMISES MADE TO THE FATHERS.` (Rom. 15: 8)    

3.     The reason the Body of Christ is `caught away,` is because it has come to the unity of the faith. (Eph, 4: 13) and is ready to rule with the Lord on His own throne. (Rev. 3: 21) Not to `escape.`

 

4.     I Cor. 15 does NOT mention `harvest,` only likening a seed dying and then coming forth for us as a spiritual body.

 

5.     Phil. 3: 10 - 14. You are trying to link resurrection with harvest and that is not so. Harvest is ONLY connected to Israel and the nations for they are OF the earth. It is a harvest OF THE EARTH. And the Body of Christ is NOT OF THE EARTH, but is heavenly seated. (Eph. 2: 6)

 

6.     Rev. 20. These are the `first` resurrection, meaning TYPE OF - to LIFE. There are only two types of resurrections - one to life and one to condemnation. (John 5: 29)

 

7.     Lev. 23 the harvest. All to do with God`s dealings with ISRAEL.  The harvests are part of God`s time line for Israel. The different feasts, are God`s convocations.

`Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: “The feasts of the Lord, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, these are my Feasts.` (Lev. 23: 2)

 

8.     The Reward. Here you have a confused the Body of Christ and Israel.

            The Body of Christ will rule and reign with Christ on His own throne in the     HIGHEST. (Rev. 3: 21   Eph. 1: 20 - 23 FAR ABOVE ALL).

            Israel will rule on the earth.

           All those so called qualifications are false and not for the Body of Christ. They are all written to Israel.  

9.     The judgment/reward seat of Christ is for those things done in the power of the Holy Spirit and not for self-agrandizement, (to be wealthy and famous!!!! as you said) (1 Cor. 3: 11 - 15)

 

Ad Hoc, God`s word is NOT all about us, but about CHRIST. It is for us to read and see God`s purposes that all rulership in every realm comes under Christ.

There is the Body of Christ, Israel and the Nations.

Get those mixed up as you have done then you just get a list of guilty things you should have done. This undermines the great sacrifice and purpose of God.

 

  Marilyn. 

G'day sister and thank you for taking the time to show your view. Your main objection is that the Kingdom on earth and the rewards attached to it are for Israel. Further, you deny a harvest for the Body of Christ. But if you go point for point through your posting, you never post scriptures that say what you maintain. I will, for the sake of brevity, not answer all your points, but will rather show that the Kingdom will be administered by the Church. But first I will show a harvest of the Church.

If Christ is Head of the Church, and He is "first fruits of them that sleep" (1st Cor.15:20), then there is a harvest. If we are God's field and He is the Farmer, and He requires fruit, there is a harvest. If Paul "planted" and Apollos "watered" and the Husbandman seeks fruit from "God's Field", how then is there no harvest? In Matthew 13 the Wheat is the good seed sown by the Lord. Is there are harvest of this Wheat? Yes.

But now we turn to the harvests of Revelation. In Chapter 14, as you pointed out, there is a harvest. But what you failed to say was that there are THREE harvests. The first is the "harvest of the earth" (Rev.14:15-16). But then the cry goes up that another angel with fire and a sharp sickle, may reap "the clusters of the vine of the earth". But even before these two harvests are commanded, we have decisive harvest - the harvest of the "firstfruits" who "follow the Lamb wherever He goes" (14:4). You have mentioned in your second last paragraph that there are THREE peoples on earth (i) The Church, (ii) Israel and (iii) the Nations. Is it not noteworthy that there are three harvest in Revelation 14? Whereas you see only one, three are recorded;
(1) Those "firsfruits"  redeemed FROM the earth
(2) Those of the earth
(3) Those of the clusters of the vine of the earth

But hey ... sister, what about the Tares ... and what about the Wheat ??? Did you notice that among the Wheat there are things that OFFEND IN the Kingdom - and will be dealt with separately after their harvest?

Now we will address Israel.

In Matthew 12 the rejection of the Son of God is complete. Israel have named Him emissary of Beelzebub. Jesus in turn denies His relationship with His mother and brothers and declares a new bond and new family, His disciples (Matt.12:46-50). He then leaves the HOUSE and also LEAVE the sea shore "the same day" (13:1). The "House" is not named but the whole Chapter is one of dealings with Israelites. But leaving the sea shore is decisive for to Abraham are promised "seed as the sand of the sea shore" (Gen.22:17). And when asked by His disciples why He taught in Parables, our Lord says that it is so that Israel cannot understand, and that it is only His disciples who are given the understanding of the mysteries of the Kingdom.

All this evidence together is a crushing rejection of the "House of Israel" and left Israel in no condition to even understand the Kingdom. The mutual rejection culminates in Matthew 21:43 with the official statement that Israel will not inherit the Kingdom, and the heart renting statement of Jesus that God had left them in Matthew 23:38. In Matthew 19:28 our Lord had already made clear that, far from Israel ruling anything, they would be ruled by the Church.

But if you are inclined to entertain lingering doubts, then answer this for yourself. For a man to see and enter God's Kingdom, our Lord sets forth FAITH by which a man is born again and becomes a son of God (Jn.1:12-13, 3:3-6) and Obedience (Matt.7:21-23) with works of the Spirit (Gal.5:21, Eph.5:5). Israel, far from believing, mount a murderous persecution against the disciples of Jesus. Romans 11 tells us that this blindness and hardness of heart will remain until God remove Gentile rule from the earth. Israel FAIL in every requirement for the Kingdom.

Herewith a few random answers to your points:
-  The Law of Moses, a Covenant made with God, promises blessings if kept. These blessings are promised by God. But you call them "self-aggrandizement".
-  The reward for a Christian is set forth by God. Shall we thank God or snub them.
-  If God thinks that reward will serve His purposes, are we wiser than Him?

You see, it's best to embrace the things that God makes instead of judging them.

Finally, in point #9 you said that the judgment/reward seat is for things done in the power of the Spirit. That is not what scripture says. I says it s a Bema - a traveling throne of a King Who is to be feared - for judging what YOU did in your body. It is always good to be precise with God because He is going to do what He said. Maybe you should read through that list I made and see if that is what scripture says. The Jesus that is taught at Sunday school won't be on the Bema. The One on the Bema will be a conquering King who cast out a servant for "doing great miracles in His Name" when he did not have permission (Matt.7:21-23).

 

[Dennis1209]

18 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I understand that the "harpazo" is split as per harvest. That is, if there are any men in heaven before our Lord opens the seals (which is the case in Chapter 4), they are a limited number. But to answer your question bluntly, I must say "NO" to your question. Here are my reasons:

John is raptured to heaven to view a future event. So he is not part of the rapture of 1st Thessalonians 4

But suppose you counter with the argument that the future event will have them and they should be there, I revert to the oldest answer - there is no scripture to give an indication

As the posting you answered says, I understand that the 24 Elders are the "courses" for the heavenly Tabernacle, and are angels. There is no indication in Chapter 4 of any other men in heaven. I will concede that the "new song" is a strong sign that there were saints, but if the 24 Elders are a priestly class, it would be normal that they carry the song of the saints from earth to heaven

If the 24 Elders are men, why were they already in heaven when John arrived. John is 5 times called "the disciple whom Jesus loved". Why would he not be part of the firstfruits rapture containing the 24 elders.

If the 24 Elders are men, how do they get their crowns before Jesus? To cast them down at the coronation of our Lord Jesus assumes that they were already wearing them. But if they belonged to a heavenly principality all is logical and correct.

But even more telling is that the Old Testament saints of Matthew 27:52-53 should definitely be in heaven but nothing is said of them. That is, there are men in heaven but Chapter 4 does not allude to them.

The reason that the Church is never mentioned again after Chapter 3 is that in Matthew 24 those that are "taken" break up the House! The last four Churches of Revelation 2 and 3 are warned of the Lord's coming while in their sins. Chapter 4 begins with "AFTER THIS" - indicating that the Lord has come for the firstfruits (Overcomers). The House of God thus divided. If it is divided it cannot be called a House anymore.

The most prolific teachers of a general rapture before the Great Tribulation were the Plymouth Brethren. Their contribution was great, but in this point they missed it. Yet, their influence was considerable and the teaching of both Christian universities and works of fiction have had an effect.

I say, that if the grammar is taken care of, that is, if the new song comes from the saints, and not the 24 Elders AND the four creatures (for the grammar joins them) in the song, then there is no proof of a general company of raptured saints in Chapter 4.

It all hangs on the grammar. And then, what you said is so true. We are about to find out who got it right - and it won't change a thing for us.

Go well bro

Long-held thoughts and beliefs are hard to change when you’re brought up in a particular denomination, doctrines, and teaching; I will give you that. There are many godly biblical expositors and scholars with widely different views of who and the timing of the harpazo, and it makes me wonder if that was the Lord’s intention.

·         To not wholly reveal His hand to Satan, as the OT is concealed and the NT reveals.

·         Always be ready at any time for the Lord’s return, do not be surprised and not looking or ready.

As you mention, no, John is not part of the harpazo. Though the word “harpazo” is not mentioned, John was clearly transported to heaven in the spirit. As you mentioned in another thread, harpazo only means supernatural movement, such as when Phillip was raptured to another location and Elijah. There is strong evidence Elijah was transported to another place on earth, not Heaven, but that is another topic.

The beloved apostle was summed to Heaven for a task, to be a witness, recorder, and scribe. There was a man about… The apostle Paul also witnessed Heaven, whether in the body or spirit, not to mention Stephen.

Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

With the “new song” and kings and priests, it still looks like the 24 Elders, representing the general harpazo.

Revelation 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Nowhere in the Bible are angels said to have crowns or be awarded crowns, only victors who won the race (humans). That is a difficult one to get around. By reasoning, this has to be the redeemed covered with the blood of the Lamb clothed in white raiment with crowns (reward).

“If the 24 Elders are men, how do they get their crowns before Jesus? To cast them down at the coronation of our Lord Jesus assumes that they were already wearing them. But if they belonged to a heavenly principality all is logical and correct.”

Revelation 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

Jesus wears many diadems and crowns. I surmise the crowns, rewards, and rulership will be awarded at the Bema Seat of Christ. I believe the book of Revelation is written in chronological order, with parenthetical chapters inserted. Based on this, I think crowns are awarded before the Tribulation even begins.

Revelation 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

“But even more telling is that the Old Testament saints of Matthew 27:52-53 should definitely be in heaven but nothing is said of them. That is, there are men in heaven but Chapter 4 does not allude to them.”

Yes, chapter four does not, but chapter seven does. Chapter seven is the first parenthetical chapter. Giving additional information for the previous chapters.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

“Chapter 4 begins with "AFTER THIS" - indicating that the Lord has come for the firstfruits (Overcomers). The House of God thus divided. If it is divided it cannot be called a House anymore.”

I take “AFTER THIS” to mean a conclusion of past and present in John’s Day, starting the prophetic future of chapter four. “After this” in context can also be interpreted as “come up hither”, the movement of the church (harpazo) in my opinion.

“The most prolific teachers of a general rapture before the Great Tribulation were the Plymouth Brethren. Their contribution was great, but in this point they missed it. Yet, their influence was considerable and the teaching of both Christian universities and works of fiction have had an effect.”

I am unfamiliar with what the Plymouth Brethren taught, and I live in America. 😊 My bad. I see the “Great Tribulation” as the last half of the seven years.
 

As always, an interesting conversation with much to learn.

[WilliamL]

On 10/29/2022 at 5:50 PM, Vine Abider said:

So in Revelation 14, the first fruits could be referring to both those from Israel - and the body of Christ - who ripen before others?

Answered in detail in two consecutive blogs, of which these are the opening words:

" Under the Mount Sinai Covenant, all firstfruits were to be given to God: not just the firstfruits of the Spring grain harvest, but also of the Autumn harvest of fruit, wine and oil. Likewise, all the firstborn/firstfruit-of-the-womb of both livestock and men were to belong to God. Firstborn sons were redeemed with a substitute offering. Ex. 34:19-20, 22, 26; Lev. 23:10, 17; Deut. 26:1-4, 10b; Neh. 10:35-39

This law applies spiritually under the Covenant of Christ. God established the pattern in Israel, and He will fulfill that pattern in Christ’s Church and in Israel.

Under the typology of the Mosaic Law, only the best of the harvest, the firstfruits, were/are to be taken up to God’s Tabernacle. In the End Times, the Tabernacle of God is “the true Tabernacle which the Lord erected…in heaven.” Heb. 8:1-2; Rev. 11:19; 15:5  "

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2686-the-firstfruits-and-the-harvest-20-part-1/

 

[WilliamL]

5 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Nineteen times in Revelation chapters 1-3, the church is mentioned. Then complete silence of the church until Revelation 22:16 (ekklēsía). 

Incorrect, although commonly stated.

The Church/ekklēsía refers to the whole body of Christ, which is never mentioned in those words in Revelation. It is always (singular) "the church of" (Ephesus, etc.), or, (plural) "the churches."

So this common argument is deceptive when it comes to the actual mention of The Church, because the only uses of ekklēsía in Revelation refer to different congregations. Nothing at all to do with any Rev. 4 rapture.

[Dennis1209]

27 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Incorrect, although commonly stated.

The Church/ekklēsía refers to the whole body of Christ, which is never mentioned in those words in Revelation. It is always (singular) "the church of" (Ephesus, etc.), or, (plural) "the churches."

So this common argument is deceptive when it comes to the actual mention of The Church, because the only uses of ekklēsía in Revelation refer to different congregations. Nothing at all to do with any Rev. 4 rapture.

I'll bow to your opinion.