Could there be Multiple Raptures?

[iamlamad]

17 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

...

Again, it doesn't matter what or when your view of "the wrath" is.  We know there will be 7 years of God pouring His wrath on the earth, as seen in the seal, trumpet and bowl JUDGMENTS.  

Of course it matters, because my view of the wrath comes straight from the Written Word of God.  Its right there in black and white: the Day of His wrath is come." What else can that possibly mean but that God's wrath has begun. In simple terms, God is now angry.

You are wrong again! You have NO AUTHORITY to push God's wrath BACKWARDS from where John and the Holy Spirit starts it, at the 6th seal. What does this mean? It means NO WRATH
at the 5th seal: God is not mad at His matyrs.
at the 4th seal: that is the devil trying to stop the gospel using pestilence and death.
at the 3rd seal: that is the devil trying to stop the gospel using famine and hunger.
at the 2th seal: that is the devil trying to stop the gospel using wars.
at the 1st seal: that is the church taking the gospel to the world.

You are right that God's wrath, started at the 6th seal, will continue on through the trumpets and bowls.

[FreeGrace]

13 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

You are mistaken yet again.

23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

This fits perfectly with Paul's pre-wrath coming and rapture as written in 1 Thes. 4 & 5.

I think you know that Paul wrote "coming" in that passage.

Every "coming" about Jesus in the NT is the prophesied SECOND COMING from the OT.  There is nothing about any "pre-wrath coming/rapture" in this verse or any other.  Your ideas are based on presumption.

[iamlamad]

17 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

...

Well, the 2W are "raised to life", sure.  But they do NOT receive glorified bodies.  1 Cor 15:23 doesn't permit such a view.  They will come down from heaven, just like all the rest of the saved dead that are now in heaven, and all will receive their glorified bodies at the same event.

What you MISS:

The Two Witnesses suddenly show up, and BEGIN their witnessing, just days before the midpoint - but they will testify for 1260 days. That will take them to just days before the END of the week. (their testimony is during the last half of the week.)

They lay dead for those days and they are raised at THE END OF THE WEEK - the very moment ALL the OT saints will rise: as Jesus said, "on the last day." that will be at the 7th bowl poured out. After all, the Two Witnesses WILL BE OT saints - probably Enoch and Elijah - the two men who never died.

Where you miss it:

The NT saints are under a New Covenant and Paul's rapture covers that. The dead in Christ rise PRE-WRATH. (This is why many many people now call themselves pre-wrath believers.

[FreeGrace]

7 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I have already done it and you ignore it. Why" Simply because you don't believe Paul. If you are looking for a word for word phrase "rapture before wrath," God did not provide it. It is there nevertheless. It just takes some digging. 

[This is what I had posted:  

"You are dodging my challenge by this "response".  This is what I posted:

"Please show me the verse where Paul "wrote that the rapture would come before wrath".  I don't believe you.  Quote the verse or passage where that is made very clear."

Simple question:  can you do this or not? "

So now you're finding excuses for your inability to provide clear verses.  As you are basically admitting, there aren't any, so you use the "excuse" of having to dig.  You've been digging in all the wrong places.] 
Why would Paul write of the Day of the Lord only three verses away from his classic rapture verse, UNLESS they were related? 

[The so-called "classic rapture verse" is about the Second Advent.  I was taught that 1 Thess 4 was about "the rapture" from my youth.  However, when I finally began to think about what the passage didn't say, I realized there is NOTHING about Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven at any time.]
Why would Paul write of God's wrath in His classic rapture passage UNLESS they were related? 

[It seems you just don't want to understand that God's wrath is what the whole Tribulation is about.  So we'll just have to agree to disagree.]

One verse tells us JESUS comes as a thief.
Another verse tells us the DAY comes like a thief? 

What then can we learn from this? Jesus coming will trigger the DAY.  Plain and simple. But then we have to ask WHICH COMING since there are two. 

[I do agree that the DAY of the Lord begins when Jesus comes back at the Second Advent.  What I totally reject is that there are 3 total "comings" of the Lord.

I wonder why you can't comprehend that if there were more than what the OT prophesied about, how would NT believers even understand which is which when they come to "the coming of the Lord".  There would be NO WAY to do this.]

We just follow the scripture: it was in 1 Thes. 5 that Paul wrote that the DAY would come as a thief - in His classic rapture passage. So it will be His coming FOR HIS BRIDE that will trigger the start of the Day of the Lord and His wrath. 

Question: Since Paul tells us of a coming before Wrath, and Jesus tells us His coming after the tribulation, WHY WOULD ANYONE imagine there will only be ONE MORE coming?

You are stuck with these FACTS that refute your pre-trib ideas.

1.  There is only one resurrection of the saved.

2.  That one resurrection will occur "when He comes", which is the Second Advent.

3.  The Second Advent is when tribulation martyrs will be resurrected and it is called the FIRST resurrection, the second one being 1,000 years later and will be at the end of the MK, and is the resurrection of unbelievers.

These FACTS eliminate the possibility of a pretrib rapture being true.

[iamlamad]

17 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

...

I don't see how any of this is relevant to the timeline of history.

There is an earthquake at the 6th seal, the 7th trumpet and the 7th bowl.  Are they speaking of the same event, or separate earthquakes?

It does relate because there is going to be the first worldwide earthquake when Christ raises the dead in Christ. Those saints have been buried around the world.

Where is the first such earthquake found in Revelation? it is at the 6th seal. That is just one more hint that Paul's rapture will come JUST before the start of wrath. How amazing: that is just what Paul teaches us.

I don't believe the 7th trumpet earthquake speaks of a resurrection. 

The 7th bowl earthquake will be the world's worst. I believe that is because it is where (when) God resurrects those who lived before the flood. I also believe the earthquake when the Two Witnesses rise is that same 7th bowl earthquake.  (The 2 W earthquake is written in parenthesis.

[FreeGrace]

11 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Of course it matters, because my view of the wrath comes straight from the Written Word of God.  Its right there in black and white: the Day of His wrath is come." What else can that possibly mean but that God's wrath has begun. In simple terms, God is now angry.

You are wrong again! You have NO AUTHORITY to push God's wrath BACKWARDS from where John and the Holy Spirit starts it, at the 6th seal. What does this mean? It means NO WRATH
at the 5th seal: God is not mad at His matyrs.
at the 4th seal: that is the devil trying to stop the gospel using pestilence and death.
at the 3rd seal: that is the devil trying to stop the gospel using famine and hunger.
at the 2th seal: that is the devil trying to stop the gospel using wars.
at the 1st seal: that is the church taking the gospel to the world.

You are right that God's wrath, started at the 6th seal, will continue on through the trumpets and bowls.

I don't even know where to start with all this error.  So we will just have to agree to disagree.  I guess you don't believe that the Tribulation is a 7 year period of time.

[iamlamad]

57 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

You are stuck with these FACTS that refute your pre-trib ideas.

1.  There is only one resurrection of the saved.

2.  That one resurrection will occur "when He comes", which is the Second Advent.

3.  The Second Advent is when tribulation martyrs will be resurrected and it is called the FIRST resurrection, the second one being 1,000 years later and will be at the end of the MK, and is the resurrection of unbelievers.

These FACTS eliminate the possibility of a pretrib rapture being true.

The problem is, your "facts" are simply NOT TRUTH.
There are millions of believers that disagree with you. I think they are probably more correct in doctrine than you are.

[FreeGrace]

7 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

What you MISS:

The Two Witnesses suddenly show up, and BEGIN their witnessing, just days before the midpoint - but they will testify for 1260 days. That will take them to just days before the END of the week. (their testimony is during the last half of the week.)

They lay dead for those days and they are raised at THE END OF THE WEEK - the very moment ALL the OT saints will rise: as Jesus said, "on the last day." that will be at the 7th bowl poured out. After all, the Two Witnesses WILL BE OT saints - probably Enoch and Elijah - the two men who never died.

Where you miss it:

The NT saints are under a New Covenant and Paul's rapture covers that. The dead in Christ rise PRE-WRATH. (This is why many many people now call themselves pre-wrath believers.

Actually, I never "missed" either of your points.    However, the 2W won't be given resurrection bodies when they rise to heaven.  Because 1 Cor 15:23 says plainly that all believers will be resurrected "when He comes" and Rev 20:4-6 shows that FACT.

[FreeGrace]

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The problem is, your "facts" are simply NOT TRUTH.
There are millions of believers that disagree with you. I think they are probably more correct in doctrine than you are.

I've quoted the verses that SAY what I SAY, so please figure out that.

btw, truth isn't determined by democracy, but rather, what the Word SAYS.  And I SAY what the Word SAYS. 

Edited December 22, 2022 by George
Removed Personal Attack

[OneLight]

@FreeGrace & @iamlamad

Come on now, let's not turn this into a flame fest.  You've been able to communicate pretty civilly up to now, please don't start with the personal attacks ...