The Great White Throne Judgement

[AdHoc]

4 hours ago, kenny2212 said:

Children who die before the age of accountability go to heaven.

Matthew 19:14 (NKJV) -  But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”

It seems you believe in soul-sleep. Because it would be redundant for God to take a child to heaven now and then later return that child to live on earth in the millennium. 

I don't think soul-sleep is right.

2 Corinthians 5:8 (NKJV) - 

We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

 

Brother Kenny, if you change your understanding of Matthew 19:14, the picture changes. It is NOT; "the Kingdom IN Heaven". It is; "the Kingdom (out) OF Heaven" Remember Jesus's prayer. "Thy Kingdom COME ..." COME to where? To where Jesus was standing when He prayed - EARTH. "thy WILL be done on EARTH" as it already is done in heaven.

If so, then the analogy of the children changes dramatically. It now means that in simple, unopposing and guileless FAITH of a child does a man enter this Kingdom.

[kenny2212]

9 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

No Kenny, I do not believe in soul sleep as you point out above. 

Do you suppose in our resurrection and glorified bodies we will retain our memories, or be robots? Putting it another way, what memories would the people I listed above have? The moment Adam was created mature, he was intelligent, but did he have any memories?

Would the listed individuals understand 2 Cor. 5:8? I think these questions are legitimate for discussion. The conclusion will most likely be, "we do not know."

Our memories are known by our spirits. One will remember things even after the body is dead and buried. Case in point - Story of the Rich man and Lazarus. The resurrected body will be a spirit-body - this does not imply we will not have memories before we get these spirit-bodies. We will always have memories. 

[kenny2212]

7 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Brother Kenny, if you change your understanding of Matthew 19:14, the picture changes. It is NOT; "the Kingdom IN Heaven". It is; "the Kingdom (out) OF Heaven" Remember Jesus's prayer. "Thy Kingdom COME ..." COME to where? To where Jesus was standing when He prayed - EARTH. "thy WILL be done on EARTH" as it already is done in heaven.

If so, then the analogy of the children changes dramatically. It now means that in simple, unopposing and guileless FAITH of a child does a man enter this Kingdom.

Okay. Where do children who die before the age of accountability (in this pre-trib dispensation) go? Christians who die during the tribulation period have to wait till they're resurrected in Rev. 20 to have an opportunity to live.

Edited November 22, 2022 by kenny2212

[Retrobyter]

On 11/8/2022 at 7:27 PM, AdHoc said:

In 1st Corinthians 15 verses 22-26 the order of resurrection is laid forth. It is;
1. Christ first - and we know that that is past already
2.  "Those who are His" - at His Coming
   Then a period of rule while He subdues God's enemies
3.  Then death is conquered - being the last enemy

At Christ's resurrection, to complete the Wave Offering, a company of Old Testament saints were raised just after Jesus (Matt.27:52)

Shalom, AdHoc.

Please stop thinking this way. The FIRSTFRUIT (SINGULAR) is the Messiah ALONE!

1 Corinthians 15:20 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 

The Greek of this verse is ...

20 Νυνὶ δὲ Χριστὸς ἐγήγερται ἐκ νεκρῶν, ἀπαρχὴ τῶν κεκοιμημένων ἐγένετο.

Transliterated, this becomes ...

20 Nuni de Christos egeegertai ek nekroon, aparchee toon kekoimeemenoon egeneto.

Translated, word-for-word, we get ...

20 Now but Christ/Messiah has-been-raised from dead-ones, a-firstfruit (noun, feminine, singular) of-those having-fallen-asleep he-became.

Rearranged for English, we get ...

20 But now Messiah has been raised from among dead ones, he became a firstfruit of those having fallen asleep.

My point is that this "Firstfruit" is SINGULAR! It ONLY pertains to HIM!

If we look closely at Matthew 27:52 in context, we see this:

Matthew 27:50-54 (KJV)

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. 54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying,

"Truly this was the Son of God!"

All of verses 51 and 52 happened AT YEESHUWA`S DEATH! Only verse 53 happened AFTER HIS RESURRECTION! Those Greek manuscripts that contain punctuation show the Greek "semicolon" at the end of verse 52.

Let's look at the Greek of verses 51 through 53:

51 καὶ ἰδού, τὸ καταπέτασμα τοῦ ναοῦ ἐσχίσθη εἰς δύο ἀπὸ ἄνωθεν ἕως κάτω· καὶ ἡ γῆ ἐσείσθη· καὶ αἱ πέτραι ἐσχίσθησαν·
52 καὶ τὰ μνημεῖα ἀνεῴχθησαν· καὶ πολλὰ σώματα τῶν κεκοιμημένων ἁγίων ἠγέρθη·
53 καὶ ἐξελθόντες ἐκ τῶν μνημείων μετὰ τὴν ἔγερσιν αὐτοῦ εἰσῆλθον εἰς τὴν ἁγίαν πόλιν, καὶ ἐνεφανίσθησαν πολλοῖς.

Transliterated:

51 kai idou, to katapetasma tou naou eschisthee eis duo apo anoothen heoos katoo; kai hee gee eseisthee; kai hai petrai eschistheesan;
52 kai ta mneemeia aneoochtheesan; kai polla soomata toon kekoimeemenoon hagioon eegerthee;
53 kai exelthontes ek toon mneemeioon meta teen egersin autou eiseelthon eis teen hagian polin, kai enefanistheesan pollois.

Translated word-for-word:

51 and behold/look!, the veil of-the temple tore in two from top unto bottom; and the earth was-shaken; and the rocks were-torn;
52 and the tombs were-opened; and many bodies of-the having-fallen-asleep saints arose;
53 and having-gone-forth out of-the tombs after the resurrection of-Him they-entered into the holy city, and appeared to-many.

From the text, they were raised to life AT THE DEATH of the Messiah. Then, AFTER HIS RESURRECTION, they left the tombs and entered into the holy city (Jerusalem) and appeared to many. They were NOT raised to life at His Resurrection, and their resurrections were of the same caliber as that of Eleazar ("Lazarus") in John 11. They were neither raised as immortal nor as incorruptible; they would all have to die again later.

On 11/8/2022 at 7:27 PM, AdHoc said:

Christ "Coming" is ONE JOURNEY but like an express train He makes a stop on the way. After His coronation and after receiving His Throne of glory, our Lord travels from heaven through the stratosphere (where there are no clouds) and stops in the clouds (troposphere).

This took some thought; so, I commend you for originality. However, "glory" in Greek is the word "doxa" and it means "to make something very apparent," like a white star against the black background of the night sky. Effectively, it means "radiance." It does NOT mean its origin, and neither does "glory" ever refer to "Heaven." It is a CONDITION, not a place.

Secondly, "heaven" comes from the Greek word "ouranos" meaning the "sky."

This is best seen in Matthew 16:1-4: (The words highlighted and underlined are cases of the word "ouranos.")

Matthew 16:1-4 (KJV)

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven. 2 He answered and said unto them,

"When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. 3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas!"

And he left them, and departed.

(Just as a personal gripe, I just don't understand why the translators would pick one word in verse 1 and a second word in verses 2 and 3 for the SAME GREEK WORD! Seems like a "leading argument.")

I don't believe that the Pharisees and the Sadducees used the word any different than did Yeeshuwa`; on the other hand, Yeeshuwa` quite clearly used the word for the SKY where weather is made!

Indeed, "heaven" used to mean "the sky" just a couple of hundred years ago! We will still use the phrase, "into the heavens" like "into the blue (sky)!"

So, when you said, "our Lord travels from heaven through the stratosphere (where there are no clouds) and stops in the clouds (troposphere)," we can see that you mean "heaven" to be something OTHER than the "sky!" That, to me, is an error. A common error, to be sure, but an error just the same.

On 11/8/2022 at 7:27 PM, AdHoc said:

The resurrection and rapture of the Church then takes place and, as 1st Thessalonians 4:17 says, we meet Him in the clouds.

Why would you make this passage of Scripture about the "Church," "capital C," no less?! There's nothing in the text that would so restrict the meaning of this text!

On 11/8/2022 at 7:27 PM, AdHoc said:

Then, when the Church is judged (at the Bema - a traveling throne), our Lord bursts forth from the clouds over Mount of Olives in Jerusalem (Matt.24:30).

This sounds good, except that it can be shown from prophecies other than Zechariah's that show that Yeeshuwa` the Messiah will make another stop FIRST before He arrives in the Jerusalem area:

Jeremiah 48:1-49:22 (KJV)

1 AGAINST MOAB thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel;

"Woe unto Nebo! for it is spoiled: Kiriathaim is confounded and taken: Misgab is confounded and dismayed. 2 There shall be no more praise of Moab: in Heshbon they have devised evil against it; come, and let us cut it off from being a nation. Also thou shalt be cut down, O Madmen; the sword shall pursue thee. 3 A voice of crying shall be from Horonaim, spoiling and great destruction. 4 Moab is destroyed; her little ones have caused a cry to be heard. 5 For in the going up of Luhith continual weeping shall go up; for in the going down of Horonaim the enemies have heard a cry of destruction.

6 "Flee, save your lives, and be like the heath in the wilderness. 7 For because thou hast trusted in thy works and in thy treasures, thou shalt also be taken: and Chemosh shall go forth into captivity with his priests and his princes together. 8 And the spoiler shall come upon every city, and no city shall escape: the valley also shall perish, and the plain shall be destroyed, as the LORD hath spoken. 9 Give wings unto Moab, that it may flee and get away: for the cities thereof shall be desolate, without any to dwell therein.

10 "Cursed be he that doeth the work of the LORD deceitfully, and cursed be he that keepeth back his sword from blood.

11 "Moab hath been at ease from his youth, and he hath settled on his lees, and hath not been emptied from vessel to vessel, neither hath he gone into captivity: therefore his taste remained in him, and his scent is not changed.

12 "Therefore, behold, the days come,"

saith the LORD,

"that I will send unto him wanderers, that shall cause him to wander, and shall empty his vessels, and break their bottles. 13 And Moab shall be ashamed of Chemosh, as the house of Israel was ashamed of Bethel their confidence. 14 How say ye,

"'We are mighty and strong men for the war'?

15 "Moab is spoiled, and gone up out of her cities, and his chosen young men are gone down to the slaughter,"

saith the King, whose name is the LORD of hosts.

16 The calamity of Moab is near to come, and his affliction hasteth fast. 17 All ye that are about him, bemoan him; and all ye that know his name, say,

"How is the strong staff broken, and the beautiful rod!"

18 Thou daughter that dost inhabit Dibon, come down from thy glory, and sit in thirst; for the spoiler of Moab shall come upon thee, and he shall destroy thy strong holds.

19 O inhabitant of Aroer, stand by the way, and espy; ask him that fleeth, and her that escapeth, and say,

"What is done?"

20 "Moab is confounded; for it is broken down: howl and cry; tell ye it in Arnon, that Moab is spoiled, 21 And judgment is come upon the plain country; upon Holon, and upon Jahazah, and upon Mephaath, 22 And upon Dibon, and upon Nebo, and upon Bethdiblathaim, 23 And upon Kiriathaim, and upon Bethgamul, and upon Bethmeon, 24 And upon Kerioth (this was Judas Iscariot's home town; Yhudah Iy-Keriot), and upon BOZRAH, and upon all the cities of the land of Moab, far or near. 25 The horn of Moab is cut off, and his arm is broken,"

saith the LORD. 

26 "Make ye him drunken: for he magnified himself against the LORD: Moab also shall wallow in his vomit, and he also shall be in derision. 27 For was not Israel a derision unto thee? was he found among thieves? for since thou spakest of him, thou skippedst for joy. 28 O ye that dwell in Moab, leave the cities, and dwell in the rock, and be like the dove that maketh her nest in the sides of the hole's mouth. 29 We have heard the pride of Moab, (he is exceeding proud) his loftiness, and his arrogancy, and his pride, and the haughtiness of his heart."

30 "I know his wrath,"

saith the LORD;

"but it shall not be so; his lies shall not so effect it. 31 Therefore will I howl for Moab, and I will cry out for all Moab; mine heart shall mourn for the men of Kirheres. 32 O vine of Sibmah, I will weep for thee with the weeping of Jazer: thy plants are gone over the sea, they reach even to the sea of Jazer: the spoiler is fallen upon thy summer fruits and upon thy vintage. 33 And joy and gladness is taken from the plentiful field, and from the land of Moab; and I have caused wine to fail from the winepresses: none shall tread with shouting; their shouting shall be no shouting.

34 "From the cry of Heshbon even unto Elealeh, and even unto Jahaz, have they uttered their voice, from Zoar even unto Horonaim, as an heifer of three years old: for the waters also of Nimrim shall be desolate. 35 Moreover I will cause to cease in Moab,"

saith the LORD,

"him that offereth in the high places, and him that burneth incense to his gods. 36 Therefore mine heart shall sound for Moab like pipes, and mine heart shall sound like pipes for the men of Kirheres: because the riches that he hath gotten are perished. 37 For every head shall be bald, and every beard clipped: upon all the hands shall be cuttings, and upon the loins sackcloth. 38 There shall be lamentation generally upon all the housetops of Moab, and in the streets thereof: for I have broken Moab like a vessel wherein is no pleasure,"

saith the LORD. 

39 They shall howl, saying,

"How is it broken down! how hath Moab turned the back with shame!"

so shall Moab be a derision and a dismaying to all them about him. 40 For thus saith the LORD;

"Behold, he shall fly as an eagle, and shall spread his wings over Moab. 41 Kerioth is taken, and the strong holds are surprised, and the mighty men's hearts in Moab at that day shall be as the heart of a woman in her pangs. 42 And Moab shall be destroyed from being a people, because he hath magnified himself against the LORD. 43 Fear, and the pit, and the snare, shall be upon thee, O inhabitant of Moab,"

saith the LORD.

44 "He that fleeth from the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that getteth up out of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for I will bring upon it, even upon Moab, the year of their visitation,"

saith the LORD.

45 "They that fled stood under the shadow of Heshbon because of the force: but a fire shall come forth out of Heshbon, and a flame from the midst of Sihon, and shall devour the corner of Moab, and the crown of the head of the tumultuous ones. 46 Woe be unto thee, O Moab! the people of Chemosh perisheth: for thy sons are taken captives, and thy daughters captives. 47 Yet will I bring again the captivity of Moab in the latter days,"

saith the LORD. Thus far is THE JUDGMENT OF MOAB.

1 CONCERNING THE AMMONITES, thus saith the LORD;

"Hath Israel no sons? hath he no heir? why then doth their king inherit Gad (the West Bank!), and his people dwell in his cities? 2 Therefore, behold, the days come,"

saith the LORD,

"that I will cause an alarm of war to be heard in Rabbah of the Ammonites; and it shall be a desolate heap, and her daughters shall be burned with fire: then shall Israel be heir unto them that were his heirs,

saith the LORD.

3 Howl, O Heshbon, for Ai is spoiled: cry, ye daughters of Rabbah, gird you with sackcloth; lament, and run to and fro by the hedges; for their king shall go into captivity, and his priests and his princes together. 4 Wherefore gloriest thou in the valleys, thy flowing valley, O backsliding daughter? that trusted in her treasures, saying,

"Who shall come unto me?"

5 Behold, I will bring a fear upon thee,

saith the Lord GOD of hosts,

"from all those that be about thee; and ye shall be driven out every man right forth; and none shall gather up him that wandereth. 6 And afterward I will bring again the captivity of the children of Ammon,"

saith the LORD.

7 CONCERNING EDOM, thus saith the LORD of hosts; 

"Is wisdom no more in Teman? is counsel perished from the prudent? is their wisdom vanished? 8 Flee ye, turn back, dwell deep, O inhabitants of Dedan; for I will bring the calamity of Esau upon him, the time that I will visit him. 9 If grapegatherers come to thee, would they not leave some gleaning grapes? if thieves by night, they will destroy till they have enough.

10 "But I have made Esau bare, I have uncovered his secret places, and he shall not be able to hide himself: his seed is spoiled, and his brethren, and his neighbours, and he is not.

11 "Leave thy fatherless children, I will preserve them alive; and let thy widows trust in me."

12 For thus saith the LORD;

"Behold, they whose judgment was not to drink of the cup have assuredly drunken; and art thou he that shall altogether go unpunished? thou shalt not go unpunished, but thou shalt surely drink of it. 13 For I have sworn by myself,"

saith the LORD,

"that BOZRAH shall become a desolation, a reproach, a waste, and a curse; and all the cities thereof shall be perpetual wastes!"

14 I have heard a rumour from the LORD, and an ambassador is sent unto the heathen, saying,

"Gather ye together, and come against her, and rise up to the battle." 

15 "For, lo, I will make thee small among the heathen, and despised among men. 16 Thy terribleness hath deceived thee, and the pride of thine heart, O thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, that holdest the height of the hill: though thou shouldest make thy nest as high as the eagle, I will bring thee down from thence,"

saith the LORD.

17 "Also Edom shall be a desolation: every one that goeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss at all the plagues thereof. 18 As in the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour cities thereof,"

saith the LORD,

"no man shall abide there, neither shall a son of man dwell in it. 19 Behold, he shall come up like a lion from the swelling of Jordan against the habitation of the strong: but I will suddenly make him run away from her: and who is a chosen man, that I may appoint over her? for who is like me? and who will appoint me the time? and who is that shepherd that will stand before me?"

20 Therefore hear the counsel of the LORD, that he hath taken against Edom; and his purposes, that he hath purposed against the inhabitants of Teman: Surely the least of the flock shall draw them out: surely he shall make their habitations desolate with them. 21 The earth is moved at the noise of their fall, at the cry the noise thereof was heard in the Red sea. 22 Behold, he shall come up and fly as the eagle, and spread his wings over Bozrah: and at that day shall the heart of the mighty men of Edom be as the heart of a woman in her pangs.

Isaiah 34:1-10 (KJV)

1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea (Edom), and upon THE PEOPLE OF MY CURSE, to judgment.
6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in BOZRAH, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

Isaiah 63:1-6 (KJV)

1 "Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from BOZRAH? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength?" 

"I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save."

2 "Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?"

3 "I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. 4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. 5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm (Yeeshuwa`) brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. 6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth."

So, first, Yeeshuwa` will deal with Botsrah ("Bozrah") in MoaV, and then He will come around the Dead Sea and begin to purge His Land, starting with MoaV.  NOW, look at the beginning of Zechariah 12:

Zechariah 12:1-9 (KJV)

1 "The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel,"

saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

2 "Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. 3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces (literally, shall herniate themselves), though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 4 In that day,"

saith the LORD,

"I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart,

"'The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.'

6 "In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem."

7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. 8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. 

9 "And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem."

And, this happens BEFORE Zechariah 14:1-5.

Another thing that happens before Zechariah 14 is the end of Zechariah 12:

Zechariah 12:10-14 (KJV)

10 "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced (Yeeshuwa`),

and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. 

12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart;
the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart;
the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; 
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart;
the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; 
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

What I find VERY interesting is that these four names are found again in one other place in Scripture, and in this order (although reversed):

Luke 3:23-31ff (KJV)

23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age,
being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph,
which was the son of Heli, 
24 Which was the son of Matthat,
which was the son of Levi,
which was the son of Melchi,
which was the son of Janna,
which was the son of Joseph, 
25 Which was the son of Mattathias,
which was the son of Amos,
which was the son of Naum,
which was the son of Esli,
which was the son of Nagge, 
26 Which was the son of Maath,
which was the son of Mattathias,
which was the son of Semei,
which was the son of Joseph,
which was the son of Juda, 
27 Which was the son of Joanna,
which was the son of Rhesa,
which was the son of Zorobabel,
which was the son of Salathiel,
which was the son of Neri, 
28 Which was the son of Melchi,
which was the son of Addi,
which was the son of Cosam,
which was the son of Elmodam,
which was the son of Er, 
29 Which was the son of Jose,
which was the son of Eliezer,
which was the son of Jorim,
which was the son of Matthat,
which was the son of Levi, 
30 Which was the son of Simeon,
which was the son of Juda,
which was the son of Joseph,
which was the son of Jonan,
which was the son of Eliakim, 
31 Which was the son of Melea,
which was the son of Menan,
which was the son of Mattatha,
which was the son of Nathan,
which was the son of David, ...

And, this explains why each of these families and their wives would be mourning for Him as "an only son" or as "a firstborn son." They were in the lineage of the Messiah!

Furthermore, if one takes it to its ultimate conclusion, it means that the mourning of Zechariah 12:10-14 occurs AFTER the Messiah has returned and AFTER the resurrection! They are alive again and gathered to mourn the suffering of their Grandchild, having seen how He was pierced by the other children in their own families!

I'll stop there tonight; that's quite a bit to handle in one post.

 

[AdHoc]

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, AdHoc.

Please stop thinking this way. The FIRSTFRUIT (SINGULAR) is the Messiah ALONE!

Greetings to you too. First I must say that you have gone to a lot of trouble to answer me and I appreciate this. Thank you. Second, I'm very sorry that you have not read other postings of mine on the resurrection because we don't differ much at all. I'll answer your two main objections quickly as we almost agree.

Our Lord Jesus is the Firstfruits (singular) from the dead. He is this for two reasons. (i) He is the source of resurrection life (1st Cor.15:45), and (ii) He must have preeminence in ALL things (Col.1:18). But because man has more problems than just God's right to the first and best of the harvest, Exodus and Leviticus show us FURTHER aspects of Christ meeting the father's needs and meeting OUR needs. Thus, our Lord ALSO the Lamb of Egypt, ALSO the Sin-Offering, ALSO the Meal Offering. And God, Lord of the Harvest, whether it be seed of the woman, cow, lamb or wheat lays His rightful claim to even a tenth of the harvest.

In this position as Lord of the harvest, God has instituted and regulated His portion of the WAVE OFFERING. And the law of the Wave Offering of the harvest (Lev.23) is a "SHEAF". An "EAR" does not completely satisfy God (vs.10-11). The reason may lie in that our Lord Jesus is fruit from the dead AND He, as the "life-giving-Spirit", is the cause of fruit from the dead. Be that as it may, the "Sheaf" is called "firstfruits" (v.10). I was attempting to explain why these Old Testament saints were raised just "AFTER" Christ. That our Lord Jesus is THE Firstruits (singular) from the dead was never disputed. But I am ALSO correct in calling the "SHEAF" firstfruits. I'm sure you will agree.

Also, the sequence was never disputed. Scripture says the Old Testament saints were raised AFTER Jesus simply because our Lord Jesus must have the Preeminence in ALL things.

Next, the journey of the Lord from the right hand of the Father to earth is not disputed. My intention was not to give all the details of our Lord's activity in saving Jerusalem, fighting Armageddon and why He will fight in Bozrah. The task I thought lay before me is the misconception of many Christians that because scripture talks of our Lord coming as a Thief and in the Clouds, AND it speaks of Him bursting forth from the clouds, that our Lord makes TWO JOURNEYS. I was showing that one records His "presence" (Parousia) in the clouds where He meets His raptured Church and judges them, and the other, His "Apokalypsis" where He is revealed "to those who pierced Him" - BUT that they are the same journey.

Summarized, it is as follows;
-  Jesus spends the Church age "above all heavens" at the right hand of the Majesty on high" - that is, in His Fathers Throne
-  Jesus gets the command to settle things on earth. He descends to a lower heaven and there receives His OWN throne (Rev.4)
-  Jesus opens the seals from this position and then starts His journey downward.
-  Jesus stops in the clouds (the lower atmosphere) and receives His Church "as a Thief". They are judged by Him. But as He is on a journey, the throne is not a fixed "thonos", but a Bema - a traveling throne.
-  Jesus then leaves the clouds over Mount Olives and is "revealed" (openly in glory) to Israel. They mourn.
-  Jesus proceeds to Jerusalem, Armageddon, etc etc to settle scores.
-  Jesus commands His angels to collect the "elect" who were scattered to the four winds - Israel.

Thanks once again for your effort. We don't differ much in our understanding. Maybe a point here or there - and maybe its just semantics.

[Dennis1209]

15 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The Reformation was God's blessing and kindness. But because it was so hotly (and bloodily) contended, the two camps (faith and works) held their position to the exclusion of the truths that the other camp had. Ask any Christian what it means to be saved and he will tell you; "Believe in Jesus and you will go to heaven". But this is not salvation. This is what the Bible says:

• FAITH will allow your sins to be accounted for. You will escape the Lake of Fire
• FAITH will allow you to be partaker of the divine life
• FAITH will allow a rebirth and you will be son of God and co-heir with Christ of the EARTH

1. But  you are saved, not for heaven, but to be conformed to the image of Christ to be to God's glory by your WORKS
2. You are saved to become God's Tabernacle on EARTH by a rebirth. You must build - WORKS
3. You are resurrected to defeat death and to be built into God's corporate House on EARTH. While all men are to be resurrected, but with differing glories, there is a resurrection of REWARD for your WORKS
4. You are accountable to God for SERVICE (WORKS) that He appoints you and that account will decide if you are fit to be a prestigious co-king in the next age

To be SAVED is not only saved from the Lake of Fire, but to fulfill all the above points. For the Christian, since His sins are atoned for, he will be judged on points 1 to 4.

But on what criteria are the REST of mankind judged? Romans Chapter 2 tells us that Israel are judged by their compliance or breaking of the Law. And any man who receives mercy does so based on the judicial effect of Christ's death. Romans 2 says that the Gentiles will be judged by their consciences. But BOTH according to their WORKS (v.6)

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law

So, in all three cases, Christian, Jew and Gentile, judgment is based on WORKS. The Christian escapes the effect of past works by faith in what Jesus did, but is held responsible for works in life after conversion. Those Jews that receive mercy receive it by Covenant and Promise BECAUSE of what Jesus did. The Gentiles die in their sins. BUT .... God sets the bar and those who did no damage to God are acquitted. These are those you alluded to, from the aborted baby to infant death to the damaged to the victims of oppressors, DID NO WORKS AGAINST GOD. But... Do I say they are SAVED? NO! Because to be SAVED includes the effects of FAITH above. 

Romans 2:7 above sets forth their position if found not guilty. Without writing a Book "glory" means "made apparent" (Vine). "Honor" is that praise bestowed by the Judge. "Immortality" pertain to the "Second Death". "Eternal Life" is not to HAVE eternal life but to be a SUBJECT in a Kingdom that is ruled by men who HAVE eternal life. Elsewhere it is rendered "ENTER" or "INHERIT" eternal life. A man who benefits from Christ's rule ENTERS life. A Man who HAS eternal life gets it by FAITH. One is the advantage of the Kingdom. The other is an intrinsic value or attribute.

Because of the intensity of the debate and persecution of the Reformation, Christians don't want to acknowledge that EVERY assize is about WORKS. The big question is; IF ALL are found guilty, on what basis can they escape? The number 1 escape is by faith in Jesus, his Person and His Work. If you set Jesus aside and you are a Jew, you receive mercy because God Promised forgiveness. And those of the Nations who did no harm ENTER life. Those who did harm to God ENTER (the Second) death (Isa.66:24)

Good morning, or good afternoon, whichever applies. 😊

Okay, I suppose I did not outline what I was trying to communicate and ask; you lost me with your reply.

My exegetical view of the Bible is that the angels were created immortal; they cannot physically die, and there is no annihilation. The same applies to the human soul, which is immortal and cannot die. So, the progression of my questions would be:

(i)                When does every human being become a living soul, given a spirit? Pre or post-exiting the womb. Receiving your spirit that returns to the Lord at physical death, which He gave it. (I submitted it at the very moment of conception).

(ii)              Those that perish in the womb and physically die before the age of accountability, where do their souls and spirits immediately go? (I assume 2 Cor. 5:8)

(iii)           Will the above be bodily resurrected, and when? If they are resurrected, will it be a mature body as Adam was created with no past, only present and future?

(iv)            If they are resurrected, will they stand before the Bema Seat of Christ, give an account of their lives, and receive any rewards? Or, having a sinful nature before the Great White Throne judgment? Neither makes any logical sense to me.

Isaiah 55:8 (KJV) For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If all means all, in reference to this topic, how can “all” come to repentance not having the time, knowledge, or opportunity? I thought these might enter the millennium also, to make a free-will decision and choice.

 

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

Good morning, or good afternoon, whichever applies. 😊

Okay, I suppose I did not outline what I was trying to communicate and ask; you lost me with your reply.

My exegetical view of the Bible is that the angels were created immortal; they cannot physically die, and there is no annihilation. The same applies to the human soul, which is immortal and cannot die. So, the progression of my questions would be:

(i)                When does every human being become a living soul, given a spirit? Pre or post-exiting the womb. Receiving your spirit that returns to the Lord at physical death, which He gave it. (I submitted it at the very moment of conception).

(ii)              Those that perish in the womb and physically die before the age of accountability, where do their souls and spirits immediately go? (I assume 2 Cor. 5:8)

(iii)           Will the above be bodily resurrected, and when? If they are resurrected, will it be a mature body as Adam was created with no past, only present and future?

(iv)            If they are resurrected, will they stand before the Bema Seat of Christ, give an account of their lives, and receive any rewards? Or, having a sinful nature before the Great White Throne judgment? Neither makes any logical sense to me.

Isaiah 55:8 (KJV) For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If all means all, in reference to this topic, how can “all” come to repentance not having the time, knowledge, or opportunity? I thought these might enter the millennium also, to make a free-will decision and choice.

 

Your preamble is all correct. One point could be added. Man is made of Body, Soul and Spirit. There is no annihilation for man either. His body is the same one but newly knit by the Holy Spirit. The soul leaves Hades and the spirit returns from God. The man is whole again. Death, the sundering of man, is defeated at the White Throne. Every man ever to have lived will be alive and can not die twice. Even those in the Lake of Fire are ALIVE (e.g. the Beast).

(i) I agree with you about our beginning. The Bible deals with "seeds". When the two "seeds" fuse, life begins. I don't mind if other's differ. I base my understanding on Genesis 1:11-12, Psalm 139:16.

(ii) All men go the same way except those Christians living at the coming of the Lord. Body to the elements, soul to Hades and spirit to God.

(iii) 1st Corinthians 15 says that God gives the body as he pleases. The events of Luke 16 show intelligence and communication. Since our Lord used proper people this cannot be a parable. There is scope for teaching a soul, as the rich man learned. I assume that babies will be taught. I admit no scriptures are available. The Lord has put a great wall between us an the dead. I'm happy to admit that many questions cannot be adequately answered.

(iv) The Bema assize is ONLY for believers. Babies (except for Israelites) etc. will appear at the White Throne. If there are no evil works in the Books, they will be found in the Book of Life. They will enjoy eternity as SUBJECTS on earth - "righteousness, peace and joy "- forever.

The bottom line is JUSTICE. God's intrinsic nature is righteousness. This can never be violated. If He wants to extend mercy, (one of His attributes), He MUST FIRST satisfy Justice. No one gets a free ride.

SIN (singular) is inherited by every man (except Jesus). Jesus dies for "ALL men" as the Lamb of God (Jn.1:29). The proof of sin (singular) being dealt with COMPLETELY is resurrection. The Lamb, if lifted up, will draw ALL men to Himself (Jn.3)

SINS (plural) or TRESPASSES are the fruit of the sin-nature. All men trespass. God would extend mercy, but justice does not allow it. The bill must be paid by one capable and worthy. Such a One is Jesus. God may now judicially extend mercy to who He wants to. The Church receives mercy based on FAITH in Jesus and His Work. Israel receives mercy based on God's promises and on the Covenant. The Gentiles receive mercy at God's discretion and justice. The guilty (of going against God actively) will not escape. I'm glad to report that the ONE Who knows all things, and the heart, will be the Judge. Those deserving will get their portion of the Lake of Fire. Since man is resurrected and alive, and cannot die again, the Lake of Fire is forever.

We are very close in belief. None of us can know everything, but those who approach God's Word as it stands, usally agree in a high percentage.

[AdHoc]

10 hours ago, kenny2212 said:

Okay. Where do children who die before the age of accountability (in this pre-trib dispensation) go? Christians who die during the tribulation period have to wait till they're resurrected in Rev. 20 to have an opportunity to live.

All men go one way (except those Christians alive at Christ's coming. The Body goes back to the elements. The Soul goes to Hades. The spirit returns to God. At resurrection, the Holy Spirit gives newly knit body (based on the old one). "IT is sown ... "IT" is raised .... "IT" used in both death and resurrection shows that it is the same Body.

And you are correct. A baby cannot go against God. Neither can it believe. It must wait for the White Throne. It is "one of the REST of the dead". "Waiting" is correct. Abraham has been in Hades four thousand years. But he is with the Lord (Ps.139:8). The Hebrew is "Sheol". It can mean the "grave" and it can mean "Hades". The context decides.

[Dennis1209]

It seems I am flip-flopping on the title of Kenny’s thread. But it is all related and interconnected into the topic of “the Great White Throne judgment” in several respects, in my opinion. For instance:

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. [all emphasis mine] The questions:

·         Where was Enoch translated to? Translated implies movement in any direction, was Enoch translated to the 3^rd Heaven, another earthly location as Phillip was, possibly Elijah also. Or, the grave, the place of the dead, the two compartments, one torment the other paradise (Abraham’s bosom) in Hades.

·         That he should not see death, does that mean temporarily or never die a physical death?

·         Do true born-again repentant believers please God if they do not have any fruit or works that follow them, advancing the Kingdom of God?

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

There seems to be abundant evidence of many men having to die twice. The resurrection of Lazarus, those raised by Jesus and the apostles, the future two witnesses, and those I will get to shortly. Some believe Enoch & Elijah will be the two witnesses based on Heb. 9:27 above, and I do not, but that is for another thread to deliberate.

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53. And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The Greek words used for arose and resurrection are very similar in meaning.

Many fine Christian scholars and expositors believe these saints had to die twice physically. It does not say or imply who these saints were. Did their spirits and souls return to whence they came, Hades possibly? Did all of them have to be buried twice? Or, since the Lord was the first fruit and recently risen from the dead. They were now under the blood and could all now enter Heaven.

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

I think John MacArthur explains the meaning of those in captivity well, those in Hades (Abraham’s Bosom):

When He ascended on high. Paul used an interpretive rendering of Ps. 68:18 as a parenthetical analogy to show how Christ received the right to bestow the spiritual gifts (v. 7). Psalm 68 is a victory hymn composed by David to celebrate God’s conquest of the Jebusite city of Jerusalem and the triumphant assent of God up to Mt. Zion (cf. 2 Sam. 6, 7; 1 Chr. 13). After such a triumph, the king would bring home the spoils and the prisoners. Here Paul depicts Christ returning from His battle on earth back into the glory of the heavenly city with the trophies of His great victory at Calvary (see notes on 2 Cor. 2:14–16). led captivity captive. Through His crucifixion and resurrection, Christ conquered Satan and death, and in triumph returned to God those who were once sinners and prisoners of Satan (cf. Col. 2:15). gave gifts to men. He distributes the spoils throughout His kingdom. After His ascension came all the spiritual gifts empowered by the Spirit, who was then sent (see John 7:39; 14:12; Acts 2:33).^[1]

1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Human spirits, upon death, return to the Lord who gave them. I suspect, at this time, that Jesus preached to these evil angels in captivity and declared victory. On the Paradise side of Hades, Abraham’s bosom was cleaned out, with the torment side remaining we refer to as Hell. With Hell ever expanding.

So, all the above to express my view. I believe the wedding of the Lamb to His bride (the church) takes place in the 3^rd Heaven, where our Father’s Throne resides. I think the Bema Seat judgment could occur outside the 3^rd Heaven. There are instances where a Bema Seat is mobile and transportable.

As @AdHoc reasons (and the five foolish virgin’s parable), I think it is plausible for a saved person to be shut out from admission to the wedding and wedding feast. It appears those found worthy receive their white garments and rewards in Heaven and remain in Heaven for the seven-year tribulation. Then the bride and heavenly host (armies of heaven) follow the Lord for Armageddon back to earth, and then His Kingdom is established on earth forever.

Now let the various views fly.  😊

 

 

---

^[1] MacArthur, John, Jr., ed. The MacArthur Study Bible. electronic ed. Nashville, TN: Word Pub., 1997. Print.

[truth7t7]

16 hours ago, AdHoc said:

All men go one way (except those Christians alive at Christ's coming. The Body goes back to the elements. The Soul goes to Hades. The spirit returns to God. At resurrection, the Holy Spirit gives newly knit body (based on the old one). "IT is sown ... "IT" is raised .... "IT" used in both death and resurrection shows that it is the same Body.

And you are correct. A baby cannot go against God. Neither can it believe. It must wait for the White Throne. It is "one of the REST of the dead". "Waiting" is correct. Abraham has been in Hades four thousand years. But he is with the Lord (Ps.139:8). The Hebrew is "Sheol". It can mean the "grave" and it can mean "Hades". The context decides.

There are (Two) resurrections on the (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Eternal Life

2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Eternal Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

Daniel 12:1-2KJV

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29KJV

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Edited November 23, 2022 by truth7t7