The Sequential Order of Revelation and John's Hebraized use of Kai as the Vav Consecutive

[anastasis888]

The Sequential Order of Revelation and John's Hebraized use of Kai as the Vav Consecutive

There is a very good reason why the vav consecutive is called the vav consecutive. It has been understood from ancient times that the Hebrew vav prefix is a conjunction used for sequential/series denotations. "ויאמר אלהים יהי אור" (And God said, Let there be light) is the first use of the vav consecutive in the Hebrew Bible after 'And darkness was upon the face of the deep. It is continuously and consistently used for ordering and sequence. It may be translated in difference ways into English such as 'Then, next, and', but in Hebrew, as well as the Hebraized use of the conjunction και in the LXX and NT, one thing that is certain is that any time the vav consecutive and the kai are used first in a sentence in the Bible, whether Old or New Testaments, they always denote order and consecutive action.

Being that is the case, it is certain that John pens Revelation in sequential order of events. There is no reasonable hermeneutical way out of it. There is not even one case in the Bible where a vav consecutive or a και as the beginning of a sentence does not denote sequence of order and action. It consistently denotes order and sequence of action in every single case without exception.

If any one can show even one case where the vav consecutive or premiere kai denotes anything but sequence, let it be exhibited and we will stand corrected.

The book of Revelation is orderly and sequential just as much so as Genesis, and it can be demonstrated by noting the usage of kai throughout just as the sequence of Genesis can be demonstrated by noting the usage of vav consecutive prefix and kai in the LXX. It's grammatically bad reading and bad hermeneutics to insist that it is non-sequential.

What we see in Revelation is the spiritual sequence of events from the beginning of Christ's coming in the clouds of heaven around AD 70 (or that Feast of Trumpets in AD 66 when I suspect that John began to receive the Revelation shortly before the seige of Jerusalem began that next spring of AD 67) all the way to the ending of the heavens and the earth and even into the age beyond in new heavens and new earth. It is a linear sequence of events, not a non-linear sequence of events. There is no way to correctly reorder the sequence of events in Revelation. For example, chapter 6 by no means comes after chapter 18 in event sequence. The actual grammatical structure of Revelation does not lend itself to such a reading.

[anastasis888]

John is banished to Patmos after that infamous summer fire at Circus Maximus in AD 64. Nero blamed the Christians for the great fire. Everyone even then knew Nero had ordered it to be done. He was already completely out of his mind by 64.

 

John stays a little over two years in that  slave camp of exiles called Patmos. I'm thinking Jesus is visiting John in vision at that autumn Feast of Trumpets in AD 66. He has one more great mission for John. He is to return after Vespasian liberates the captives of Patmos after Nero's mad driven demise. He is to write the vision and send it off to the 7 churches of Asia.

 

John here is writing nothing the churches will not be able to read and accept in faith. He is not aiming to be overly cryptic to the churches. He is writing what may be thought of as the great liturgical unfolding of the age in Christ. 

Revelation is the song and the poem of Christ to the Bride, not a Cracker Jacks decoder ring. It is the Scroll to be unrolled in sequence and orderly procession.

[Diaste]

I don't think a sequential order of the occurrence of events from 1-22 is possible. 

"And I saw..."

is not the same as

"Then the fourth angel...."

Every 3.5 year period must be the same or 3.5 years would become 17.5 years long. [incorrect]

Edit: The 3.5 year periods must display overlap to maintain the time constraint of 7 years.

Revelation is perfectly sequential, but not by chapter.

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Diaste

[WilliamL]

On 11/11/2022 at 4:56 PM, anastasis888 said:

Being that is the case, it is certain that John pens Revelation in sequential order of events.

There are two types of sequence in Revelation:

1) the sequence in which John was given his visions; and

2) the actual prophesied order/sequence in which those visions will be fulfilled.

Only #1 agrees with your statement.

In the actual sequence of the visions, some are asides, such as Rev. 12, that explain in more detail some facet of End Time events. These asides may cover times and events already mentioned in earlier visions.

[iamlamad]

On 11/11/2022 at 5:56 PM, anastasis888 said:

The Sequential Order of Revelation and John's Hebraized use of Kai as the Vav Consecutive

There is a very good reason why the vav consecutive is called the vav consecutive. It has been understood from ancient times that the Hebrew vav prefix is a conjunction used for sequential/series denotations. "ויאמר אלהים יהי אור" (And God said, Let there be light) is the first use of the vav consecutive in the Hebrew Bible after 'And darkness was upon the face of the deep. It is continuously and consistently used for ordering and sequence. It may be translated in difference ways into English such as 'Then, next, and', but in Hebrew, as well as the Hebraized use of the conjunction και in the LXX and NT, one thing that is certain is that any time the vav consecutive and the kai are used first in a sentence in the Bible, whether Old or New Testaments, they always denote order and consecutive action.

Being that is the case, it is certain that John pens Revelation in sequential order of events. There is no reasonable hermeneutical way out of it. There is not even one case in the Bible where a vav consecutive or a και as the beginning of a sentence does not denote sequence of order and action. It consistently denotes order and sequence of action in every single case without exception.

If any one can show even one case where the vav consecutive or premiere kai denotes anything but sequence, let it be exhibited and we will stand corrected.

The book of Revelation is orderly and sequential just as much so as Genesis, and it can be demonstrated by noting the usage of kai throughout just as the sequence of Genesis can be demonstrated by noting the usage of vav consecutive prefix and kai in the LXX. It's grammatically bad reading and bad hermeneutics to insist that it is non-sequential.

What we see in Revelation is the spiritual sequence of events from the beginning of Christ's coming in the clouds of heaven around AD 70 (or that Feast of Trumpets in AD 66 when I suspect that John began to receive the Revelation shortly before the seige of Jerusalem began that next spring of AD 67) all the way to the ending of the heavens and the earth and even into the age beyond in new heavens and new earth. It is a linear sequence of events, not a non-linear sequence of events. There is no way to correctly reorder the sequence of events in Revelation. For example, chapter 6 by no means comes after chapter 18 in event sequence. The actual grammatical structure of Revelation does not lend itself to such a reading.

You was doing so well until your last paragraph.

[iamlamad]

On 12/2/2022 at 4:08 AM, Diaste said:

I don't think a sequential order of the occurrence of events from 1-22 is possible. 

"And I saw..."

is not the same as

"Then the fourth angel...."

Every 3.5 year period must be the same or 3.5 years would become 17.5 years long. 

Revelation is perfectly sequential, but not by chapter.

I disagree: it is perfectly sequential except for parentheses, intermissions,  and prophecies given by the elders.

In other words, events in a given chapter will always come to pass AFTER the events of previous chapters in BEFORE the events of later chapters. The only exception I have found is parenthesis and prophecies by the elders.

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I disagree: it is perfectly sequential except for parentheses, intermissions,  and prophecies given by the elders.

In other words, events in a given chapter will always come to pass AFTER the events of previous chapters in BEFORE the events of later chapters. The only exception I have found is parenthesis and prophecies by the elders.

Below is the 1260 days from Rev 11 and 12. If sequential then we have the full 2,520 days of the end of the age in the witnesses and the woman's flight. I agree this is the order at this point. 

Now we have the 42 months, same length of time as the 1260 days. I would say the time periods in Rev 11 are the same but if Revelation is only sequential then we another 42 months in Ch. 13, which extends the time of the end to 10.5 years, not 7 years. Not to forget that if strictly sequential there is an immediate problem with Rev 11:2-3.

Here there is another mention of 3.5 years or 42 months or 1260 days, so it is said. Not the one in Daniel but the one in Rev 12. So if sequential this is yet another 3.5 years bringing the total to 14 years, double the actual time allotted. 

All of these are hard prophecy of events and time frames. I don't see a parenthetical or interlude here. If Rev 11-13 is strictly chronological then we have double the length of time of the end of the age. This isn't true so there is over lap here.

Chronologically what makes sense is Ch. 11-12. First the two witnesses minister for 42 months, then the woman is protected in the wilderness for 42 months. What makes no sense is Ch. 13 only following Ch. 12 in sequence.

Revelation 11:2-3 are the same time period. [42 months]

Revelation 12:6, 14 is the same time period

Revelation 13:5 is the same time period as Rev 12:6,14 [42 months]

All neatly combined and within the allotted time of 7 years. 

[Revelation Man]

On 11/11/2022 at 5:56 PM, anastasis888 said:

Being that is the case, it is certain that John pens Revelation in sequential order of events. There is no reasonable hermeneutical way out of it. There is not even one case in the Bible where a vav consecutive or a και as the beginning of a sentence does not denote sequence of order and action. It consistently denotes order and sequence of action in every single case without exception.

If any one can show even one case where the vav consecutive or premiere kai denotes anything but sequence, let it be exhibited and we will stand corrected.

The book of Revelation is orderly and sequential just as much so as Genesis, and it can be demonstrated by noting the usage of kai throughout just as the sequence of Genesis can be demonstrated by noting the usage of vav consecutive prefix and kai in the LXX. It's grammatically bad reading and bad hermeneutics to insist that it is non-sequential.

God wrote the Book of Revelation (BoR) and gave it to Jesus who gave it to John in visions and via Angels talking to John, so John had to write down these things very fast, and used a lot of and, and & ANDS I agree, over 1200, but just like Jesus spoke to the Disciples in parables, surely God could write the BoR in a certain order, but also within a dual order of sorts, he has two books in one, the Order of Events, interspersed with other goings on that happen within that order of events.  Like lets say Rev. 11 is the Two-witnesses chapter, the Harvest Chapter is Rev. 14. The Harlot of Rev. 17, Babylon (whole world) of Rev. 18, the Dragon of Rev. 12, and the Beast of Rev. 13 all cover the exact same 42 months of God's Wrath which can be seen in Rev. 8, 9 and 16, The 7 Trumps are God's Wrath, they start in Rev. 8, then finish with the three woes (see Rev. 8:13 it says so) which come in Rev. 9 (two woes) and Rev. 16  where the 3rd Woe is all 7 Vials, its that simple.

God can indeed and did give us a book that has real time events, interspersed with Parenthetical Citation chapters.

Rev. 1 is Jesus in all his Glory (things you have seen). Rev. 2 & 3 is the Church Age (things which ARE) and everything after Rev. 4:1 is the (HEREAFTER). 

Rev. 4 and 5 is the Church in heaven before the Seals are opened. Rev. 6 is the Seals being opened, but they are not God's wrath, they just Prophesy God's coming wrath (Seal #6) and the soon to come Anti-Christs coming 42 month rule (Seals 1-5). Rev. 7 is the Jews fleeing Judea (3.5-5 million Jews who repent). Rev. 8 starts God's Wrath, the Anti-Christ can only go forth conquering at this time. Rev. 9 is the first & second woes. Rev. 15&16 go together, just like in Rev. 8 where the Trumps are readied in Heaven then blown, in 15 the vials are readied in heaven, then poured out on earth in 16. THAT ENDS the Wrath of God, Jesus returns in Rev. 16:19. All of the other chapters are Parenthetical save for Rev. 20, 21 and 22 of course.

Rev. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 19 are Parenthetical and go on mostly during the 42 months of God's Wrath. Rev. 11 starts 75 days before the Rev. 8 Wrath of God (the 2 Witnesses are the 1335). Rev. 14 and 19 actually cover the full 7 years of the 70th week. All of the other chapters parallel with Gods 42 months of wrath during Rev. 8, 9 and 16.

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Revelation Man

[iamlamad]

On 12/18/2022 at 5:44 AM, Diaste said:

Below is the 1260 days from Rev 11 and 12. If sequential then we have the full 2,520 days of the end of the age in the witnesses and the woman's flight. I agree this is the order at this point. 

Now we have the 42 months, same length of time as the 1260 days. I would say the time periods in Rev 11 are the same but if Revelation is only sequential then we another 42 months in Ch. 13, which extends the time of the end to 10.5 years, not 7 years. Not to forget that if strictly sequential there is an immediate problem with Rev 11:2-3.

Here there is another mention of 3.5 years or 42 months or 1260 days, so it is said. Not the one in Daniel but the one in Rev 12. So if sequential this is yet another 3.5 years bringing the total to 14 years, double the actual time allotted. 

All of these are hard prophecy of events and time frames. I don't see a parenthetical or interlude here. If Rev 11-13 is strictly chronological then we have double the length of time of the end of the age. This isn't true so there is over lap here.

Chronologically what makes sense is Ch. 11-12. First the two witnesses minister for 42 months, then the woman is protected in the wilderness for 42 months. What makes no sense is Ch. 13 only following Ch. 12 in sequence.

Revelation 11:2-3 are the same time period. [42 months]

Revelation 12:6, 14 is the same time period

Revelation 13:5 is the same time period as Rev 12:6,14 [42 months]

All neatly combined and within the allotted time of 7 years. 

I have already said that 11:4 through 11:13 is in parenthesis. 

The start of the 1260 days of testifying probably will begin on the same day the 42 months of trampling begins. They are back to back verses, one following the other.

With those verses (11:4-11:13) in parenthesis, then the 1260 days of fleeing will begin very shortly after the first two countdowns.

I don't think the war in heaven will take long, so the 42 months of authority will begin some unknown by short time after the other countdowns.

In other words, while the Beast is exercising his 42 months, those that fled will be protected and fed, those that fled have not returned, the two witnesses are testifying, and the city is being trampled.

If two things happen at the same time, it is very difficult to write that. One or the other must be written first. I believe the two witnesses show up when they do because the man of sin just moved to Jerusalem - probably with a Gentile army that will trample the city.

I disagree that they all are the same time. Perhaps the first two countdowns - the 42 months of trampling and the 1260 days of testifying will begin on the same day.

Did you ever notice that the last countdown to END is the 42 months of authority? It will end in Revelation 19 when Jesus comes.

I have never found where John gives a hint of when the other countdowns end. I have guessed that they will end at the 7th vial that ends the week.

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

...

Rev. 4 and 5 is the Church in heaven before the Seals are opened. Rev. 6 is the Seals being opened, but they are not God's wrath, they just Prophesy God's coming wrath (Seal #6) and the soon to come Anti-Christs coming 42 month rule (Seals 1-5). Rev. 7 is the Jews fleeing Judea (3.5-5 million Jews who repent). Rev. 8 starts God's Wrath, the Anti-Christ an only go forth conquering at this time. Rev. 9 is the first & second woe. Rev. 15&16 go together, just like in Rev. 8 where the Trumps are readied in Heaven then blown, in 15 the vials are readied, then poured out in 16. THAT ENDS the Wrath of God, Jesus returns in Rev. 16:19. All of the other chapters are Parenthetical save for Rev. 20, 21 and 22.

I must disagree in part on Rev. 4 & 5. I agree the first five seals are not God's wrath. Chapters 4 & 5 set the context and timing of the first seals. Notice the progression:
1. Jesus NOT seen in the throne room - so any time while Christ was on earth.
2. The Holy Spirit NOT YET sent down - so any time before Christ ascended.
3. Jesus NOT found worthy - so any time before Christ rose from the dead.

Then TIME PASSED as John wept MUCH.

4. Jesus FOUND worthy in a subsequent search.
5. Jesus ascended back into the throne room, having been gone about 33 years - Circa 32 AD
6. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit down.
7. Jesus went and got the book from the Father and began right then, opening the seals.

Therefore:

Seal 1 is the church, sent out with the Gospel
Seals 2-4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel.
Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the church age.

RAPTURE

Seal 6 begins the Day of the Lord

Seal 7 begins the 70th Week

Quote

Rev. 7 is the Jews fleeing Judea

No, the Jews begin to flee in 12:6, a second or two after the abomination. I picture Rev. 7 intermission as God closing the curtain, so to speak, so He can rearrange the setting for the next act: the start of the 70th week (inside the Day of the Lord).  God must see TWO EVENTS take place before He will allow the HURT to begin: first the sealing of the 144,000. Second, the church seen safely in heaven so He can pour out His wrath.

Quote

Rev. 8 starts God's Wrath,

John wrote as the last event of the 6th seal that the Day of His wrath had come.
Do you see this only as the announcement?

Quote

Rev. 8 starts God's Wrath, the Anti-Christ can only go forth conquering at this time.

The Antichrist has not even been revealed yet. If he is conquering, I don't think anyone yet knows who he is or will be.

Quote

Rev. 15&16 go together

Revelation 15 shows the preparations for the vials, but then are poured out in chapter 16. The 70th week ends with the 7th vial.
Days of GT take place all during chapter 15, and up to the vials that will stop the days of GT.

Quote

Jesus returns in Rev. 16:19.

No, Jesus will not return until chapter 19!